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Oh goodie so nobody has done Ben Raabs run on Green Lantern yet. First, some backstory, at issue #47 of Green Lantern (Vol.3) Ron Marz, an excellent writer at both merging the cosmic with the earthbound super heroics (Most notably would be Silver Surfer before this, and after this Witchblade which he managed to turn from a Cheesecake book into something worth buying) was tasked with writing the new Green Lantern as Hal Jordan had been killing the sales and the book of in cancellation territory. After being told "No the new one can't be a girl" and having the requisite 6 issues he would need to properly tell the story of Hal's breakdown over the destruction of Coast City, his abandonment by the Guardians, and the tragic descent of a man who was too much of a hero for his own good (despite what Geoff Johns would hav you believe) into going to the extremes to SAVE everyone. He still managed in 3 issues and brought us Kyle Rayner. Rayner was young, he made mistakes, he had a huge legacy to live up to and is probably the best example of the "Marvel-Style Superhero) existing in the DCU, at the time he was one of the main reasons to pick up a DC book in the 90's (At his height, GL was outselling both Superman and Batman, only doing less than JLA, which Kyle was apart of and basically billed as one of the main characters) Regardless Marz left at 125 with a hint for the future of how to restore the GLC (which he always intended to do) and a few future plot points. Which were all summarily forgotten by Judd Winnick, who was pretty hit and miss, Hits being Ion and misses being pretty much everything to do with Terry Berg. At the end of the Winnick issues, Terry Berg was beaten for being gay, Kyle went Batman on some thugs in prison (in his new outfit designed by Jim Lee) and decided that, despite having been Omnipotent and having had universal empathy, this heinous act was enough for him to ABANDON EARTH ALL TOGETHER. And yet, this is not going to be about Judd Winnick, this is about Ben Raab. Now the series as I had mentioned, had at one point been popular enough to eclipse nearly everything DC was putting out, that had waned under Winnick, but Ben Raab is the one who would kill the book to the point that we would have Geoff Johns incflicted on us for years (Apologies to Geoff Johns fans of his GL run, I just think he was a complete and utter hack who constantly retconned things and had about one story that he told over and over again until he finally left the book) Ben Raab's first major decision was that, since Kyle had brought back the Guardians as children (with none of the immortality or hubris and with gender) he would instantly age one of them up into an amazonian woman in a skimpy metal thong and bra and have her beat him up and then punch Jade, his Beau who no longer exists, in the gut, when we thought she was pregnant. She realized she wasn't pregnant so went back to earth. We'll get to the rape of Jade as a character in a moment. Kyle decided to stay in space and try to recreate the Corps without giving them any rings, because the last time he gave rings out one of the guys turned out be a conqueror (if you want to see a good story involving the Corp go read Green Lantern: New Corp) And he also had Kilowog with him who was alive again in another dumb story, and Kilowog didn't get a ring either, because gently caress you Kilowog. So instead of anything new or interesting for Kyle to do like he had during Marz's run or the exploration on what it meant to be a ring slinger with the mentorage of Alan Scott we got with Winnick. We got Kyle Rayner hunting down a drug cartel run by Abin Sur's son, Amon Sur. Which came down to earth so HE came down to earth. The Black Ring was basically the Space Mafia and that sounds really cool except it was really dumb. Because it lead to a plot arc in which Green Lantern didn't make any constructs as he went undercover for like 6 issues. This plot arc by the way kicked off with Kyle letting a shipment of teenage prostitutes go so as to not blow his cover. Disregard how utterly out of character it is for him, in the very next issue he orbital bombards a planet with his Green Ring, then doesn't kill the guy he's been sent there to kill, because KILLING WOULD BREAK HIS MORAL COMPASS! We see one of those child prostitutes later and she's working as a pleasure slave for Amon. It's pretty loving disgusting. So Kyle's acting completely out of character. But on to Jade who got the brunt of it. So for the better part of Kyle's run he had been dating Jade, the daughter of Alan Scott, and had even proposed to her and thought he was having a child with her. She turned him down by the way. Well she couldn't stand living in space and went back down to earth. Kyle sent his friends on earth a message before he went undercover, detailing that he wouldn't be able to communicate with them soon but they could use this to send a message back. Everyone had a message for Kyle but Jade. Okay fine, but at the same time, she was complaining to Meryan, a former Darkstar and lover of John Stewart. You see... Jen had needs, needs that Kyle wasn't fulfilling since he was off in space "Playing Hero" so she (with encouragement) decided that the best thing to do was to go off and have an affair. Not just a one night thing either, she just starts cheating on the guy with absolutely no remorse, destroying any fan of their relationship and their relationship in general. I would say this was better than what happened to Donna Troy (John Bryne decided he had to "Fix" her and stole her out of Green Lantern, Necessitating many rewrites for already written issues) except it's still terrible. Now while Meryan was encouraging one of her friends to cheat on another one of her friends, John Stewart was off visiting Fatality in jail, and deciding he really wanted to get freaking with the black space elf who tried to kill him instead of getting freaky with the blue space elf he had been seeing loyaly for years. There's a lot of random cheating in Raabs run. So back with Kyle, it turns out Amon Sur knew ALL ALONG that Kyle was infiltrating his Cartel, and after one panel of a bounty hunter deciding he was going to work with Kyle... deciding he was going to work with Kyle, he promptly kills the bounty hunter and goes to kill Kyle. One of the 'lanterns' (Remember no rings) that Kyle had recruited had also been infiltrated by Amon, and by infiltrated my I mean the implication is he raped her to get her to work for him, she betrays the others and is then sucked out of an airlock. If this sounds disjointed it's only cause it totally was. Anyway, it turns out the Qwardians working with Amon Sur have made an Anti-matter gun and are shooting it at Oa, which all the children Guardians, Ganthet, and big blue tits are trying to seal up the black holes it's making. So Kyle stops it with the looney tunes bent pipe, He goes to confront Amon Sur, and then gets stabbed from behind by BBT! Why? I don't know! And then she kills Amon, except she doesn't because he shows up for Sinestro Corp War. Kyle wills something and then we see the ring speeding down to earth and wind up with Terry Berg, who I've been failing to mention because I try to block out that a good portion of each issue was devoted to him reconciling with his gay hating family and his status as a gay rights activist, his boyfriend blowing him (not even kidding the comic thought we needed to see that) and generally doing everything that was so high up on the soapbox that it cracked its head on the ceiling! And that's the end of the run. Ron Marz came back with the task of "clean this poo poo up!" and proceeded to do so, he basically wrote a story which meant you could have ignored Winnick and Raab and still gotten the gist of it (Kyle survived the exploding space station and being stabbed by willing himself into his ring, then the ring back to earth to Terry, then got out of the ring and went on his merry way after a pizza) He finalized the break up of Jen and Kyle by having both of them say they really didn't understand how this had happened in the first place, since they had, for the better part of 10 years, loyally loved one another and the only major break had been Donna coming back and stirring Kyles heart, which he apologized for, she broke up with him, and they got back together after a time. By the way Jen had been cheating on him in his apartment, FUN! He settled the score with Fatality and finally Major Force, and then flew off into space to go bring back Hal Jordan and be forever relegated to never having a place or home on earth. Ben Raab utterly killed the book, I don't even mean in terms of writing (which he did) but he drove sales down the tank, necessitating the end of the 181 volume Green Lantern and the reboot by Johns. He ruined every character involved, either by having the cheat, act like assholes or just not be heroic. I really wish I could provide picture evidence but I don't have the comics with me, and honestly I hate looking at them, they make me sick. I would love a "The Best Runs" thread simply so I could talk about Ron Marz's excellent run on GL.
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Feb 10, 2014 08:09
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Dan Didio posted:Yeah, I thought Marz writing was really boring and Kyle was an incredibly tedious character throughout the nineties. It wasn't really until the tail-end, when Morrison put in some work with him on JLA that I really got interested in him. But that's wrong in two ways. The first being that Morrison didn't write Kyle at the tail-end of Kyle's run as GL (by that time Morrison was off JLA and Kyle had been replaced with John Stewert) and... Well I guess you're not technically wrong but I don't see how you can find him a tedious character I mean... he's literally the Spiderman/Batman Beyond for Green Lanterns character. He's thrown into the deep end almost immediatly and has to grow up, in his case through interacting with his various mentors (Batman, Alan Scott, John Stewart) and in one arc specifically goes out of his way to visit Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel because he really wants to learn what it means to be a hero. I guess I just enjoy that stuff so much I don't see how someone can't. But hey, everyone has their personal opinion. I for one think that Geoff Johns entire run on pretty much everything since Flash and JSA deserves to be on here. Because he's a mass retconning schlock who only knows one madlibs story and just repeats it with the words changed. but I'm not going to do a write up on it because while I consider it to be one of the worst runs, sales and public opinion would not agree with me.
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Feb 11, 2014 09:18
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The Question IRL posted:And I think it was that fusion of styles that made them distinct and made them work that seems to be missing now. It wasn't enough for Kyle to be Green Lantern. He was the green Lantern who had to learn about it on his own, while also being The Torchbearer. The shining light in a dark universe without a GL Corps, but one who kept the light alive. Too expand on this, one of the major facets of Kyle's character according to Marz was that he was the anonymous hero (which is hilarious because drat near everyone figures out it's Kyle under the mask) And that eventually no one would ever remember him for being Green Lantern. For all the good he would do he was never going to be praised or kept in some museum or record as the greatest lantern to ever live. and when Kyle learned that "Hey, the Legion of Superheroes don't even have a record of me doing anything, not even restoring the Green Lanterns" he decides that didn't mean that he shouldn't stop trying to do the right thing, because the kind of person Kyle was, was the guy who guy beaten up, had everything he loved torn from him, mocked, forgotten and had the world take a steaming poo poo all over him and then he picked himself right back up and goes "Okay, lets keep going" He wasn't the immortal badass or a stand in for Jesus, he was just a normal guy who was afraid, and got angry, and got sad and every time the world hit him he stood up and went "Lets keep going" Also, I'm going to be doing a writeup of Ken Penders on Sonic the Hedgehog (Archie) but it's a long one... a long, long, long thing to write. But it belongs here, along side the worst of the worst.
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Feb 12, 2014 07:06
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rkajdi posted:Marz also gets put on the poo poo list for his run being the origin of the Women in Refrigerators meme. He invented Kyle girlfriend only to have her killed by a D-list villain half a year later and then proceeded to have her discovered in the most gruesome way possible. If for nothing else, that run deserves derision for that. No he wasn't, no it doesn't. "Women in Refrigerators" is literally as old as storytelling itself, a close character to the protagonist dying in a horrible way to spur them on into whatever the hell the story is going to be about? Most likely at the fault of the protagonist due to inaction or sloth or some other minor thing? You think he invented that? you think that was special? you think she was found in "The most gruesome way possible"  ... Seriously? The history of comics all laid out before you, all the gore, blood, horrible ways people have died/have their corpses discovered, and that? That was "The most gruesome way possible"? If you honestly think that you have so little experience with comics and visual mediums in general that it's laughable. Gail Simone saw a target to stand on a soap box about and make an issue about, despite it being literally as old as storytelling, she did, and people took notice, and suddenly this was the most sexist thing in comics. What was it? it was a character dying so that the hero would get the big old "Great Power, Great Responsibility" message and learn to keep his identity anonymous so as to not hurt anyone he cared about. It was Uncle Ben, it was Papa McGuinesse, it was The Waynes, it was every god drat character that has ever been a motive for a superhero. The only reason this even registered as a blip for you is because she was a woman. Hell the only reason this registers as a blip for you is because other GL writers who don't know the first thing about the character will constantly bring it up. I really wish it actually was something major, like a huge horrific death scene and the fridge door was sprawled open to see her mangled corpse (She's just in there by the way, there's no dismemberment or lacerations or her body being snapped in half. That's the illusion of the CCA saying the fridge door can't be open and you only seeing feet) because then? I wouldn't have to do anything, and it might actually be "The most gruesome way possible" and that would be that. But it wasn't. It was tame, it was so tame the only way it could have been tamer would be having the first person view of Kyle opening the fridge and then the horrified look on his face. That's really the sad thing, this is nothing special, it's not particularly gruesome, it's not unique, it's just there. I mean... 2013 alone had more gruesome, brutal, senseless, violent, rage inducing deaths. How about this, lets make a deal you and I. You actually read the run, and then if you still think it deserves to be here on "The worst runs" then you can make it. And if you do, I'll gladly post my "Geoff Johns is the worst thing that happened to Green Lantern" one. And we can really compare who was the more vile and sexist and deserving to be up here. Personally though? My moneys on the one in the pink leotard with the violent dismembermants and brutal deaths. EDIT: For the record I'm not telling you that you're wrong for not liking it. I'm telling you you're wrong for the "Most gruesome way ever" and "Invented Women in Refridgerators" Because those aren't opinions. You're just flat out wrong factually. Onmi fucked around with this message at 13:00 on Feb 13, 2014 |
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Feb 13, 2014 12:57
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Hakkesshu posted:I don't know, man, you can argue that there are tons of more gruesome deaths out there, and you'd be right, but I definitely think that's a super gnarly way to kill someone, even if it isn't gory. Breaking someones neck (Well strangulation really) is super gnarly? I mean no death is "good" but it's a pretty common comic book death.  Again, I'm not saying you have to like it or it's good or anything like that. it's just so drat tame in fact if you were arguing that it's more horrifying in its tameness (as someone being strangled and unable to fight back is certainly not the most horrifying way to go out in fiction, but it's got a more stark realness than a giant alien vaporizing you and leaving your screaming skeleton) then I can see that. Onmi fucked around with this message at 13:17 on Feb 13, 2014 |
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Feb 13, 2014 13:14
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Hakkesshu posted:The method isn't the problem, stuffing a loved one's dead body in a fridge, leaving it for the person to find it is messed up, man. I wouldn't call that tame by any measure. Well of course it's messed up, but it's lost all impact these days. I mean disregard how DCs various writers have driven the fridge so far into the dirt that it's nothing more than a joke at this point, and of all the things to keep as a holdover into the Nu52? this was not the one that needed to be kept. I am not even claiming that this is required for his origin. It's just...  That's a horrifying and gory and gruesome death to me. That's hosed up. I mean Alex's death is yeah, horrifying in how just plain it is, you don't get this barrier of "goofy" that the typical comic book death entails, and in that way I can agree. But in a way I wish it was the most gruesome death in comics, you know why?    Because then poo poo like this wouldn't exist. And I think the world would be a better place for that.
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Feb 13, 2014 13:29
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Hakkesshu posted:The icepick one is straight up serial killer material, so yes, I will grant it that, but the others are just typical grimdark comic book poo poo - I don't find those to be particularly egregious, since they're clearly a result of an author thinking "let's do the most shocking thing I can imagine" and then doing it in a very over-the-top, juvenile way. Actually... You know what, thinking about it I like the scene because of how realistically horrifying it is. Don't get me wrong, still utterly believe it shouldn't have been kept for the Nu52. But the thing that seperates Spider-Man losing Uncle Ben to Kyle losing Alex is that Kyle lost Alex and there was absolutely no warning. He got the ring, decided to do good things, and never even considered that a bad person who would find out who he was and who Alex was would come to hurt her to hurt him. He is so ridiculously innocent (especially in the 90's era of comic books) and could not possibly grasp that there was a downside to the ring and being a hero. And with Alex's death there's no warning for him... It's not like Spider-Man who if he stopped the mugger Ben would have lived, Kyle doesn't even have an action he can blame this on. He got the ring, became Green Lantern, decided to help people, and suffered for it. There was no mugger, there was nothing he did or didn't do that day that made Major Force decide "I'm going to kill his girlfriend on orders from the government so I can take his ring" And when he's out there, helping people with images of him being a hero, she's being murdered, in the most simple way possible. No cosmic blasts, no comic book beat down, He wraps his hands around her throat, and he kills her. And Kyle has no idea it's happening. He has no worries, his thought is just "Help people, done helping people? go home to see Alex" simplest thing in the world. There's no "There's something wrong" thought that some heroes get, or a gut feeling or anything that would make it dramatic. Again, I don't think it deserves to be in his origin still, it worked then because it wasn't funny. It wasn't a joke it was... I have a quote that I like- "In the real world things are very different. You just need to look around you. Nobody wants to die that way. People die of disease and accident. Death comes suddenly and there is no notion of good or bad. It leaves, not a dramatic feeling but great emptiness. When you lose someone you loved very much you feel this big empty space and think, 'If I had known this was coming I would have done things differently.'" I think, that it was effectively portrayed in the book. I think I would be more be able to agree with people who hate it if it had been comedic, because it would be treating the death as a joke essentially, something to roll your eyes at, basically marginalizing the death. The way the death is though, is it isn't marginalized, or made a joke, it's taken very seriously and sobering, and I think it would have had less impact if you had just seen her in the fridge, because that would almost be comedic. And there's a difference between "I'm doing something for shock value" and "I'm treating this with respect" and I felt it was treated with the gravity it deserved. In short? it was well written. Horrifying? Yes. But horrifying doesn't mean poorly written. Now, almost every moment AFTER Marz that the fridge was brought up?  It's a god damned cartoon and joke. And there's no weight, no gravity, he's the "fridge" guy, his dead girlfriend parades around in a fridge, fridges scare him.
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Feb 13, 2014 13:59
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fatherboxx posted:Black Lantern Fridge was easily the best part of Blackest Night. If by that you mean Blackest Night was really hacky? then yes.
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Feb 13, 2014 14:53
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Dan Didio posted:I said that Morrison wrote him at the tail-end of the nineties, not at the tail-end of Kyle's run as GL, read it again. Uh... okay January 1997 so I guess that works out. Onmi fucked around with this message at 15:35 on Feb 13, 2014 |
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Feb 13, 2014 15:33
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Rka, I'm posting my response in the GL thread, this is ridiculously off topic. If you would like to continue I'm happy to do it there.
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Feb 13, 2014 15:53
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Lurdiak posted:Yeah, what the hell, why so invested in defending one of the most iconically egregious things to ever happen in a comic book? Because it wasn't poorly written or anything special outside of it not being comic booky. And that it in no way justifies a 6 year run being put in the bad runs thread. Much like Emerald Twilight, it's no where near as terrible as people claimed it was. rkajdi posted:Next up: That bitch Janet really did deserve it. Oh now that's just a dick move. Trying to paint me as a sexist? Have we devolved to personal insults? I'm trying to argue this quite rationally thank you and that was quite insulting.
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Feb 13, 2014 16:05
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rkajdi posted:You're defending one of the seminal lovely sexist moments in comics. That puts it up there with defending hitting Janet or whatever the gently caress we want to call the Ms Marvel thing.If you don't want to be called a sexist, stop defending sexist things. So in other words you are boiling me down into saying "If you dare defend this piece of writing by showing evidence and arguing rationally, I will lump sum you with every sexist and misogynist and racist on the planet because obviously you can't just have a different opinion. Even though you've claimed it doesn't deserve to be part of the origin anymore and have simply argued the point of the actual writing." I'm going to ask you again to stop, and to discuss in good faith. Because that is slanderous, rude, and you just look like an rear end in a top hat who can't actually argue the point.
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Feb 13, 2014 16:10
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bobkatt013 posted:I would say that Green Lantern was not that tame when in the previous months it had an entire city slaughtered and then the hero goes on a killing spree. I still think that the death was uncalled for and mysoginistic, but it still has nothing on Ms. Marvel. Acutally want to point out that Hal never went on a Killing Spree even as he defeated the Green Lanterns, the only two he killed (Directly) were Kilowog and Sinestro, the latter he cursed, the former he wept over    Lurdiak posted:Hey, you won't see me defend THAT mess. And neither would I, which is why I find it insulting that it was implied I would defend that or Janet being slapped.
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Feb 13, 2014 16:20
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Chocolate Teapot posted:I for one am eagerly awaiting your overview of his godawful Knuckles spin-off comic I will in fact be trying my hardest to cover ever facit of everything wrong with Ken Penders, from his stories, to his horrid characters to his art.   I can not half-rear end this, I need to make this perfect before posting it.
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Feb 17, 2014 08:24
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Evil Mastermind posted:Goddamn that is some terrible dialog. Was Ken Penders the writer too, or just the artist? Both! Depending on the issue. Ken Penders was an utterly utterly insane human being, by far up there with some of the great nutjobs of comics, although in his case he never once bosted an iota of loving talent with which to hold to past success. Don't believe me? this is a recent Penders work.  Again, this was not something he did back when he was a newbie this was recent, as in 2013 recent. To understand the sheer loving insanity of Ken Penders, let's travel back to 1993, the 90's were getting underway, the NES and Genesis were still in the heat of their console war, and Sonic the Hedgehog was just getting his feet underneath him as a property. with Sonic the Hedgehog 2 really kicking things into overdrive for the blue blur, Sega licensed out the american comic rights to Archie (And they licensed the european ones to Fleetway, but that's not for this thread). Regardless, enter our first writer, Mike Gallagher. Now Mike Gallagher was a simple man, he looked at this comic about a blue hedgehog fighting a fat man industrialist and said "this shits a comedy gold mine" so the comics roots were as a comedy, lots of jokes, silly situations and feeling more like "The neighbourhood kids fighting with the angry next door neighbour." And the comic was good, it was simple and fun and hadn't even begun to "exhaust potential stories" or anything like that...  I mean look at this poo poo, Mike Gallagher is just having fun here. And then Ken loving Penders arrived. Now in the beginning, it wasn't too bad, since Penders was flanked by Mike Kanterovich who co-wrote with him, and that probably tamed some of Penders loony tunes insanity, also helping was the fact that Knuckles didn't exist yet. But we'll get to that. See... Penders had a really, really lovely idea for a story, called "The Lost Ones" but nobody wanted to touch his complete crap comic, so what he wound up doing was basically using the Sonic Comic as springboard for his own fiction, so to start with we had to make the setting dark, like... really dark. Now I'm not saying you can't have darkness is Sonic the Hedgehog, the comics these days show that a light sprinkling of heavy poo poo can make for a delightful topping on the icecream that is the main comic. But Penders was not happy with that. Now it's worth pointing out before we go on... Penders knows nothing about Sonic. He's never played a Sonic Game, even though he worked on the comic well past Adventure 2. In fact he was fired in 2006, so from 1994 to 2006 is the scope of this "Bad Run" Process that for a moment. 12 loving years of this. Not always as the main writer, but ALWAYS there. In the back-ups, or the "Specials" or the horrible, horrible torture he inflicted upon Knuckles. And I know I'm focusing on him as a creator right now but we need to establish this, you need to understand the mind of the man heading this worst run. He had never played Sonic in the 12 years he was working on the comic, and he was an utterly terrible human being to work with. He was not the single solitary writer on Sonic, for a few years Karl Bollers was actually the head of this crazy train, and he was bad, but not WORST Runs bad, a rambler, bad art, but he got better. Years go on and he improves, and to his credit actually plays the games, wants to incorperate stuff from them into the comic. But Penders does not like this. So he just disregards everything anyone else ever wrote and continues on doing his thing, regardless of any plot holes or general stupidity left in its wake. He was 100% completely unprofessional and a noted terror to work with, when he didn't get his way? oh he would simply out his cowriters pen names and completely undermine them. Because that's how he rolls. So hopefully, with all that you can grasp what kind of man was behind this comic. So... Penders starts introducing a tonne of characters, almost all of which are human sized animals of some sort so completely missing the style of the source material that we wound up with mother goose here  Or in the chance that an introduced character belonged to a race of Hedgehogs/Echidnas etc. they would literally just be that character but with hair and in clothes.  As is the case with Knuckles extended family here, and hoo BOY was knuckles family extended. You know how we talked about Ken Penders idea "The Lost Ones" and how he couldn't get anyone to publish it? well here was Knuckles, all on his lonesome, Guardian of Angel Island, last Echidna, blah blah blah. Well Penders looked at that and went "Jackpot" and poor loving Knuckles got to be the side character in his own book so that Penders could tell his 'Wonderful' stories with people just lapping it up.  In this wonderful example of Penders writing, we see Golden Gamma, Issac, who despite predating Gamma by at least thousands of years, it could stretch to millenia, still has E-102 ENGRAVED UPON HIS BODY! Because that's how Penders rolled, this by the way was issue #148 in the year 2005! This was the standard of art and writing quality. By the way, if you're paying attention to Issacs insanity he's hinting at a Penders Original Villain, Ivan Kintobor, or "Droid" because this was the same man who named a Hunter, Hunter, born on 6/6/6. Penders had been building to that nonsense ever since he first started writing, it was after all the reason Knuckles father, Locke (Knuckles in a bathrobe and a goatee) microwaved his egg with a Chaos Emerald (of which there were thousands. Because despite the comic establishing there were only seven early on, Penders didn't care, nor had he payed attention to the games across the 12 years he'd been working on the comics.) So that Knuckles would be born the savior!  Not that he ever deigned to stay with Sonic or Knuckles, he instead preferred to greatly follow the stories of his original characters, all of who interacted with more of his original characters. Such facts lead to the lovely titled "Chaotix Caper" which despite constantly boasting to star the Chaotix, actually featured them kidnapped in the first issues, as Knuckles spent about 4 months going on and on about his backstory.  But see Penders saw himself as the one true scribe of all things Sonic, despite never having played a Sonic game etc. etc. you know the score by now. So much so that he was penning the TRUE DEFINITIVE END TO THE SONIC STORY LINE. The "Mobius, X Years Later" stories, which can best be summed up as "A bunch of characters sit around talking and Knuckles and his family" Yeah Sonic didn't get to do poo poo and nobody liked him anyway, cause he was a lovely king.  And he died in the end failing to save them all because Sonic destroyed the world by travelling to alternate worlds. If you're expecting an iota of that to have any sense, I pity you.  After all, the man believes that Vegetables are seperate things from Biological. And I could go on... and on... and on... I could tell you about how Penders truly believes he owns the characters of "Evil Sonic" and "Robo-Robotnik" And the concept of a Sonic Multiverse. I could tell you about how he's currently suing Sega and EA because he believes that Sonic Chronicles is a rip-off of his characters and ideas that had nothing to do with Sega or Archie. Despite being written for the Sonic Comic. I could subject myself to finding every terrible issue from there and back again to subject you all to the same torturous dialogue, art (which wasn't all Penders doing, but Penders was known for going over other artists work to "correct it" as one former artist can attest). I could go on about the horrible misogyny of "Hey, you saw me, so now your soul bound to me and will literally give up everything in your life just to be with me." or "Evil Sonic took off his leather jacket and Sunglasses and went around loving Bunnie Rabbot and acting like a sleeze to the rest of the female cast." But instead we'll just end two things, what finally caused Sega to smite this man, and his magnum opus, the thing you can never forget First, the smite.  The story goes that a Sega employee or executive or someone from Sega saw the cover of Issue #155, on it, Sonic was... well as you can see, bawling his eyes out in the most depressed manner possible all with the subtitle of "The worlds most way past cool comic!" Now given that this was 2006 and Sonic 06 was soon releasing, Sega had kind of hit a low point when it came to Sonics brand imaging. Now until this point they had been content to let Archie do whatever they wanted because, gently caress it, money. But after years of bad games, Sonics stock had falled and they knew they had to fix it up. So seeing this was a wake up call, and Sega promptly took Archie to task for the past 12 years of horrible, horrible comics. At this time almost all the writers save Penders had left, he had finally vanquished his steadily improving foe Karl Bollers, the editor at the time was too busy talking about Star Wars and Putting on a Pseudonym to write stories about the REAL first Freedom Fighters or Tommy Turtle Sonics best friend. Well this was a boot to Archies rear end, clean up, or lose the license. So they did, they fired almost all the old artists, demoted Penders from his position as main writer for some newcomer Ian Flynn, and behold. The comic was good.  Really  Really  Really  Good.  You could have your funny, light-hearted stuff along with every now and then something heavy and serious, which due to sparcity meant more than a constant world of darkness and war. And here's something else I forgot to mention, Penders never liked using about 98% of the actual Sonic characters, he despised Sonic and pretty much did everything possible to not have to write him, and instead write one of the two characters who were his pets, Knuckles and Tails. Amy Rose as a character debuted in 94, it wasn't until 06 and beyond, after the writer change, that she actually got to do anything, and became amazing  So for the final part, what you must always take away when you think of Penders, his magnum opus, having built up that Tails was "The Chosen One" since about Issue #20. Literally a decade of build up... for this   Destiny. Metal Loaf posted:He was the writer. In fact I'm not even sure if that's his art or not. It is, in fact, he did that issue "Solo" by which of course it's meant that no one could be cooerced into doing it with him. It's most definitly his art as the first was found directly on his web page and the latter comes from one of the back-up stories, during the whole "Chaos Knuckles" debackle, because he turned green for a year. The he became Jesus and died for everyones sins. I am not an unfair man, I have blamed him for nothing he did not do, much of the art up there was handled by Steve Butler, but that comic in particular was all Penders. I'm not kidding that I could go on forever about this poo poo. Onmi fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Feb 18, 2014 |
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Feb 18, 2014 19:24
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Metal Loaf posted:
I wouldn't ask him even if I could honestly, the most obvious reason being I doubt he even knows, the legal stuff is way above his department. The second is that I've had a chance to speak with him in the past, and he's just a nice guy who I would rather shoot the breeze with about stuff unrelated to the lawsuit than bring it up. And yes, Penders is a crazy person who honestly the only reason he didn't lose horribly is because Archie didn't want to go to a Jury Trial, thus they settled. Their reason being Sega was already pissed off and they could potentially lose the license. Because no way in existence could this case get put in front of a Jury Trial that would rule in his favor. Evil Mastermind posted:That was amazing. Oh yes, The comic basically bred an entire cult of crazies and the drama that went on behind the scenes at Archie (which was a horribly structured company at the time) Is way more interesting than anything in the books themselves. I mentioned before that Penders was a writer on the comic for 12 years, but not the main one all the time, for a decent chunk the lead writer on the Sonic side was Karl Bollers. Let me sum up the difference between Karl and Penders thusly. Karl was overly verbose, and in general his stories just seemed to take forever to get going, in time he improved, but by then Penders was regaining top writing position. Penders was... exactly what was detailed in my big post, an egomaniacal talentless hack, and basically introduced loads and loads of characters that other people made better before the Penderpocalypse. One of the funniest stories I have from that era was the name of Knuckles little brother. Penders being the utterly boring person that he was, wanted to call him "Mace" like a weapon, because... yeah. Bollers, who both hated Penders (feeling was utterly mutual) and possessing a sense of humor said "Kneecaps the Echidna" because that poo poo's just funny. So Penders made sure to introduce Mace about an issue or two before Bollers could introduce Kneecaps, solidifying his canon name as Mace. So Bollers struck back by explaining in "Return to Angel Island" that his name was "Kneecapeon Mace" or Kneecaps for short. And again, the editor at this time, Justin Gabrie was a complete incompetent who couldn't do the one job an editor has... editing! resolving the differences between the different writers for a cohesive narrative! They just constantly sniped at one another. Onmi fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Feb 18, 2014 |
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Feb 18, 2014 20:36
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The Question IRL posted:Re: Your last point Onmi, settling is not quite the dumb idea you make it out to be. Any lawyer worth his salt will tell you that once a matter goes in front of a jury, anything can happen. You can have the most guilty looking people in the world get aquittal because one or two people on the jury are convinced "all cops are corrupt and will lie about everything" and that everyone goes along with it. It's not likely, but the sheer unpredictability of a trial means that if you take an out and not have the thing proceed to trial you consider it. That's Rasta Knuckles, Athair.  If you're having troubles discerning the various Knuckles copies, I have this helpful guide  Also I wasn't implying that Settling was a bad choice, just that I couldn't fathom a jury trial buying what he was selling in the face of the evidence. The only reason that sham of a case lasted as long as it did was because Archie was hilariously mismanaged for a good portion of those 12 years and the original contracts went up in a fire, they thought photocopies would be sufficient. Of course all Penders had to say was "Nope didn't sign it" and there you go. Actually settling helps in that it doesn't create a legal precedent, so in the future when Penders tries to sue Sega and EA again, there wont be any precedent set in the Archie case to back him up. Had he won the case with an actual decision it could have been bad for them
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Feb 18, 2014 21:10
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Metal Loaf posted:Forgot to mention, I had no idea that cover made such a big impression on Sega (I didn't realise Sega particularly cared about that sort of thing, seeing as they thought Sonic Heroes and Sonic 2006 were good ideas) until Onmi mentioned it in his post. well for the longest time they didn't because they thought the brand was untouchable. 2006, in may ways, was not exactly a time when sonic was strong as a brand. So if you're taking steps internally already to "Improve the quality" which I know is hilarious because they were working on 06 at the time, but if you are you're going to want everything carrying the brand to look good. To put into perspective how anal they became about Sonics image from this point on, it was mandated that Sonic may not cry, ever, he may not be in a relationship, ever. There's a bunch of others, but those are the two that stick out as things that had either been directly related to Sega putting their foot down, or had plagued the comic for years. For the record Sega's reasoning for not wanting Sonic to be in a relationship wasn't that they felt it "Aged" him or something stupid like that. Rather the character represents freedom, always characterized as "The Wind" so it wouldn't fit for him. It's actually really funny, because Archie basically has to do the comic now, send it to Sega and then they pretty much have free reign telling them what to do. In Penders day he could do whatever he wanted and nobody at Sega cared because money was flowing. I liken it to a parent coming home to find the house trashed from the wild parties the kids threw, poo poo smeared on the walls and all that. And deciding that they will no longer be going out, becuse the child can not be trusted anymore. Even after the child has been kicked out and a new person has come to live at the house, they still have that really vivid image of the house utterly destroyed. By the way, Penders was not actually fired from the book, he was demoted to back ups and "art" which is in quotation marks because I would not call what Penders does art. But Penders didn't like that, so he had a plan. He said "I'm leaving" and Archie would realize how important he was and make him the main writer again. Instead he got told to not let the door hit him on the way out. If you can take one good thing from all the things surrounding Ken, it's that he's so utterly blacklisted himself that no one in the industry would work with him. Not that he's not insane and thinks everyone is clamoring for more Lara-Su. He also thinks that, despite his trying to sue Sega, that Sega would love to take the license from Archie and give it to him. And he said that if it happened, he would throw out, everything he hadn't worked on and just picked up where he left off.
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Feb 19, 2014 04:18
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Probably Magic posted:That's the equivalent of Todd McFarlane wanting Spider-Man for Image Comics and being convinced Disney would think that wise. I mean, I don't know how Archie structures contracts with their writers, but isn't it the same as the Big 2, where ultimately the characters belong to the company? I suppose that's what the lawsuit was about, I'm just wondering how he could get away with it this far. Because Archie was poorly structured so even though he had signed a contract that basically is the standard "Everything created here is owned by sega" etc. etc. But there was a fire and the original was lost, they had a photocopy but that's not considered evidence in court, since it could have been faked. And Ken just claimed "Nope, I never signed a contract, they just paid me to write stories but I was never signed to a contract" So he lucked out, especially because Sega didn't want to get involved and Archie didn't want to make them mad because they had threatened to pull the license. I believe the court transcripts have been released but I can only find this one on Bleeding Cool, and you can see just how awkward it is for Archie because they can't really justify going to court OR settling without Sega, and Sega does not want to be involved http://www.bleedingcool.com/2013/05/09/archie-desperate-to-settle-but-cant-without-sega-the-latest-in-the-ken-penders-sonic-comics-case/
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Feb 19, 2014 06:44
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Say Nothing posted:Was there a point where Sonic turned from a kid's comic into furry fodder, or did it just slowly morph over time? Yes there is. And there's a point where it turned back too.
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Feb 19, 2014 11:32
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Or is it Sputnik posted:Thanks for the effort Omni. That certainly is a trainwreck. You didn't even mention Penders' creative naming of Lara-Su's mother - Mari-Su. That would be because that isn't Lara-Su's mother, that's Julie-Su's mother. and Julie-Su is Lara-Su's mother. Oh man speaking of that pissed me right the gently caress off, along side "Everyone is literally knuckles/sonic etc. except with hair." "The dreadlocks on the Echdina's are head tentacles and some people have robot hair" and the Cabal of Secret Grandpas. Every loving female echidna, without loving fail, was Name-Two Lettters Lien-Da, Julie-Su, Lara-Su, Mari-Su, Mari-An Who by the way marries Rob O' The Hedge because as we've established despite all his cries of Sega infringing on his copywrite while he is totally innocent, he loved making "Sonic but X" in this case Robin Hood. And so on and loving forth! And the men don't have a similar naming pattern! It's Knuckles or Locke or Remmington etc. etc. It's a little thing, but the thing is there's so many little things. Oh yeah that also reminds me, Penders wanted to establish a "Canon" name for Sonic, because Sonic couldn't just be his name Olgilvie Maurice Hedgehog his last name is in fact, Hedgehog still. Son of Bernadette and Jules.  Yes, his mother was literally just him, but purple, and with a tuft of blond hair. Because their quills aren't their hair or anything.  Manga designs seemed to think so, but hey styling those quills as hair would be difficult, best assume that Sonic and Knuckles are bald I guess.
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Feb 19, 2014 13:32
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Elfface posted:Man, Sonic comics were messed up... That was during the Iron Dominion Storyline, Monkey Khan, who yes is just Sun Wukong with a new coat of paint which I was fine with because Wukong is awesome. And the guy that Amy smacks around (because she's awesome once 160 hits) is the Ox Demon King, Some people don't like the story I personally do because it gave us a lot of good stuff.     Steven Butler still can't do a good Sonic though, it's very noticable that he;s trying to stretch the proportions to a body size the bodies weren't meant to go. But, since this is the bad runs thread, I will again bring up something bad. Many. Hands. Many Hands was a pseudonum for whoever did the art for this issue. Whoever this is would never reveal it.   Someone drew an entire issue like that, then Gabrie, the editor, looked at that said "Yup, that's fine" and it was promptly shipped! if you were ever curious as to how poorly run Archie was at the time, that should be proof enough. I honeslty still can't decide whether Penders Photoshop backgrounds and bad art are worse than Many Hands. And yes the comics you were reading were the UK ones, which are actually fairly good, Mark Millar worked on them too. Also Sonic is just a massive insecure prick to everyone and it's hilarious. Also it could just be beautifully drawn at times to. I recommend giving it a check again. I think it's held up.
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Feb 19, 2014 16:03
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Lurdiak posted:I appreciate the efforts of the newer writers who tried to salvage the Sonic comic and fix what's horrible about it while keeping its continuity, but I'm reminded of a Tolkien story about dwarves trying to reclaim a fortress where the dragon Thorog wiped out many dwarves, and finding it to be too tainted by the evil that had been done there to be salvageable. Which is why I am partially thankful that they settled with Penders, as that caused the Penderspocalypse and now it's all done. And while it did suck to lose a few characters, now the cancer has all been cut out with a scalple. Thank god that Megaman crossover happened when it did. For the record, they decided that rather than go back to their already hosed up world with half the characters missing they decided "Screw it!" and used the end of the Megaman Crossover to reboot it. But unlike say a DC reboot they didn't do this because "ooh new sales" but becuase "Literally 70% of the cast just became unavaliable and Knuckles just lost his entire race, lets instead make the world free of all that cancerous bullshit, let the main group retain their memories so they know what happened and we can call back to any stories in the future, and forge on.  Amy remains awesome unlike how she was in the games, and the best character is Big.  Because Big has no fucks to give about all your bullshit, he's just chill so long as his frogs fine. The comic is about to do an Unleashed arc as fallout from the reality essentially being rewritten and then hosed up by Eggman while Sonic was trying to fix it, and after that Lost Worlds will probably happen since it hasn't happened in-canon yes. Colours has however... Say Nothing posted:I'm guessing Penders was to blame. Indeed, Mike Gallagher was perfectly content to write his funny book with his cartoon hedgehog and the SatAM characters fighting a fat man and his ineffectual horde of badniks in what, as I described, was essentially a bunch of kids fighting the extremely crusty neighbour who seemed to war with them. Then Penders introduced stuff like "The Great War" and "Overlanders" who would be the humans of the setting, born from mutation when aliens Gene Bombed earth, and Station Square was under a mountain because he had established that the furry tribes had chased all the overlanders off planet, and the Echidnas were a super advanced society with a cloaked city watched over by a Cabal of Secret Grandpas with their Cyborg tech loving faction splits and the eeeeeevil Dingo's and on it went. And of course the 666 descendent of Robotnik, Droid. And he would spend issues at a time, going on and on about the past, and it wasn't a good past. It just served to make the comic retardedly dark, it served to make Sonic feel like an outsider in his own setting, because again Penders had never played Sonic, he had never watched his kids play Sonic, yet was so arrogant about Sonic that he had declared (in the comic) that Archie Sonic was "Sonic Prime, the Sonic from which all other Sonics came from" Including the games. I still like his defense of basically what he did, that being that "Sonic never had a backstory or interesting characters, so I had to do something to have interesting stories." Okay think on that, throw it around https://sites.google.com/site/sthcharasbyauthor/list-of-ken-penders-characters That is a list of all the characters Penders ever created. You can go look through the other writers and with the exception of Ian Flynn (who's characters mostly existed to flesh out the setting, like with Eggmans underlings or the entire Dragon Kingdom stuff) no one ever created as much useless loving characters as Ken Penders. And then okay fine, in 1994 it was Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy, Eggman with Nack, the Chaotix, Bean and Bark and assorted game characters I'm forgetting, along side the SatAM characters. So we have... okay Bollers once did his "What I planned to do after Sonic returned a year later after saving the world and being thought dead" and he tiered them pretty well in terms of importance Primary Characters are Sonic, Knuckles, Tails, Amy. 1st Tier is the Chaotix and Sally there's a single Penders character here with Julie-Su, Knuckles Beau who never had anything interesting done with her, ever. 2nd Tier was Bunnie, Antoine, Mina Mongoose; who was a Bollers character and if you've ever watched Macross/Robotech? She was Minmei, like literally. Her boyfriend Ash was Kaifun. If you've never seen Macross go do it. Anyway Nicole, Rouge, Shadow and then like the parents and Fiona Fox, who was a Gallagher character as a robot and then Penders made a flesh and blood Fiona. 3rd Tier was Rotor, Monkey Khan, Big the Cat, the side characters for the side characters or the heroes who showed up every once in a while for an arc and then pissed off to the wild blue yonder. Simple tier system, main game characters first, secondary game characters and SatAM characters divided between 1,2 and 3. THIS WAS NOT SO UNDER PENDERS. Under Penders the most important characters, the ones driving the plot and all of that were always his own creations. They were first with Knuckles and sort of Tails whenever DESTINY was being built towards. Sonic was literally just there because he was licensed to be there. So reading the comics wasn't reading the adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog, it was the adventures of these random OCs guest starring Sonic.
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Feb 20, 2014 02:50
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:Just want to say I am really loving all this Penders stuff. I remember reading (and to my adult self's shame) enjoying the Sonic stuff in the 90s. I loved the whole 'A Moment of Archie Sonic' tumblr that sadly seems to have died. /v/ is currently Marathoning the entire comic from start to finish, Before they had just done the later issues and Ian and Dubs dropped in to comment on it. They also dropped in to comment on the /co/ Marathon which lead to this lovely Off-Panel as a shoutout  So you can read it there if you can stomach /v/ being /v/. As far as a compilation of all the loving insanity of Penders? Not really. How did he gain so much control? Well look at how many characters he created. Think of it like this, at this time Archie was a horribly run company, they had absolutely no structure, I've been over how Justin Gabrie was the most horrible editor and couldn't do the bare basics of his job. He was in control because he was the writer, Sega didn't care because they were getting money, Archie didn't care because they were poorly run, Gabrie didn't care because he was a pillock, so who the gently caress was going to stop him? The only person at the time who did not deal with his poo poo was Bollers, everyone else tolerated him but Bollers and Penders just loving HATED one another, especially since Bollers was the head writer for a while, while Penders was the back up writer. And they would constantly gently caress with each other to the point where nothing made sense. One would close a story arc and the other would act like it had never happened. What happened in the end was that Penders and Bollers were arguing I think on a forum? and Penders called him Benny Lee. Benny Lee was a Pseudonym he used on the comic when writing stories some times which was really funny because the opinions he gave as Benny Lee essentially talked about wanting to use more of the games stuff. Penders also outed Gabrie, who wasn't doing his loving job, as Romy Chacon so he was just a massive dick and pissed off everyone.
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Feb 20, 2014 04:56
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TwoPair posted:Really you could have shortened the post to this and described the entire Sonic franchise across all media since the Genesis. Tracey Yardley who does the art on the Sonic Comic did sketches for a Mario, Kirby and Metroid comic for Nintendo, they didn't want it. So don't think Archie didn't think of it themselves. EDIT: Here we go    http://www.comicartfans.com/galleryroom.asp?gsub=134338 Source there Onmi fucked around with this message at 05:48 on Feb 20, 2014 |
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Feb 20, 2014 05:35
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Lurdiak posted:I have an inexplicably large amount of old Mario comics, and they were exactly what you'd expect a weird licensed cash-in comic to be: utter nonsense that doesn't take itself seriously and is dangerously stuffed with puns. Kinda like the Mario Bros. Super Show, really. Which yeah, is basically what a Mario comic should be. I do not understand the people who want the silly mascot characters like Sonic or Mario to BE super serious. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the maximum "Dark" those types of characters should ever touch, is Pixar-Level. It can get dark at times, but the player and reader and watcher are all sitting there and know that, in the end, this is still a story on that level, and things will sort themselves out. I use Unleashed and Galaxy as perfect examples of this, they are written in a way that even when there's "Drama" like the world being broken up or the mushroom kingdom being attacked or yadda yadda, there's still the sense of... I dunno? Whimsical charm? It's not taking itself super seriously with doomsday cultist toads and stormtrooper Koopas. I think a Mario comic would more suffer from, these days at least, Nintendo's minimalist approach when it comes to Mario himself, I could see them certainly keeping a close eye on how he's portrayed, which would have helped Sonic a lot if Sega had actually kept a drat eye on the product, then again Sonic 06... In unrelated (but more ontopic) I actually don't hate the Nu52 Blue Beetle run. Most assuradly it is not the Blue Beetle of old, absolutely not. It is in fact, the exact opposite, I actually sat down and looked at the two side by side and it wasn't just that Tony Bedard didn't get the old Blue Beetle, rather he got it and set out to be the exact opposite of it. And I think it deserves its spot here for that, because it wasn't necessarily a "Bad" comic, but it most assuredly was a bad Jaime Reyes Blue Beetle Comic. I think Bedard was honestly trying to go in the exact opposite direction on purpose so his run wouldn't be compared to the excellent run of the past, but at the same time missed that people really wanted to see Jaime again because of the way the old run was. But simply writing wise on its own? it's honestly not that bad, pretty generic all things considered but not 'bad' It's of course taking in a characters past and said past runs and having the comparison, if this had been the first ever Blue Beetle comic, it would merely be "Eh" with maybe some people liking it, fact was it was always inevitably going to be compared to the past, hence it deserves to be here on merit that it is a "Bad Run" of Blue Beetle. Metal Loaf posted:I think it's because Sonic had the SatAM cartoon; you still get Sonic fans sperging incessantly over how "dark" and "mature" and "adult" said cartoon about a blue hedgehog who runs and fights a man shaped liked an egg is, whereas there's never been a Mario cartoon like that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEMqCFpk3ME Yes there was, it just was silly and light hearted and didn't spawn a fanbase of nutjobs like SatAM did. Which honestly is not that good and people only remember it for Jim Cummings Eggman. But the actual show itself was fairly bland, boring, and to be quite honest? Not a Sonic Cartoon. Sonic was completely at odds with literally everything else in the world. If you ever watch it, and I don't recommend anybody does, It honestly feels like he was transplanted into a generic 80's/90's cartoon about the evil environmentalist trying to destroy nature. Onmi fucked around with this message at 10:46 on Feb 20, 2014 |
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Feb 20, 2014 10:41
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Chocolate Teapot posted:Thanks Onmi for those write-ups on such a terrible period for that comic, of about 12 solid years out of a total of almost 20. Saying that, it's less a "worst run" for a comic and more like "all of it up to a point", as well as a lesson on how to do everything wrong when it comes to management/writing/editorialising/etc. I'd personally argue that whilst some parts where doomed to what was deemed fashionable for the time (anime storytelling, dark edginess, guest appearance by The Maxx), other parts suffered because Penders was generally "untouchable" in the silliest of ways. I originally suggested the Knuckles comic because it seemed like a fairly contained way of seeing all of the awful pushed together into one place, albeit in 40 sodding issues. Yes but that would require me getting the Knuckles Comics so I could go over it point by point. I can't do that again man. The only reason I hadn't gotten rid of the other few comics I still have lying around is because well... It's like a terror looming over your shoulder. I know I'll have to face it but fuuuck.
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Feb 20, 2014 15:03
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Good Listener posted:I was linked to Omni's post earlier this evening about the state of affairs Sonic comics ended up in over the years. It makes me glad I dropped them back in the late 90s or so. I remember all the ridiculous Echidna relatives and just seeing what that feklow is doing now is...it makes me cringe just looking at it. So thank you for helping me remember terrible things about the past I'm glad I could help, I still do recommend picking up the comics again though, now that the dark times are all behind and it's looking up sunshine.
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May 17, 2014 18:49
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