Let's Talk Headphones IV: Should I get Beats? Do I need Noise Cancelling?

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Inspect Your Gadgets > Let's Talk Headphones IV: Should I get Beats? Do I need Noise Cancelling?

Agreed: Dec 30, 2003; The price of meat has just gone up, and your old lady has just gone down

Fuckin' scuttled the old thread, rest in peace. Best of luck Midorka and thanks for taking over!

# ¿ Aug 6, 2013 07:26

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# ¿ May 3, 2024 08:37

Agreed: Dec 30, 2003; The price of meat has just gone up, and your old lady has just gone down

Yoshi Jjang posted:

I think one thing the OP should include is WugLyfe's effort post on all that sound jargon that may confuse or deter new users or those who are curious such as myself. I find it more welcoming to read than thumbing through a glossary.

Opened it up to grab that out, it's good - Midorka, do as thou wilt shall be the whole of headphone law.

WugLyfe posted:

Alright, I promised an effortpost on quantification for novices. I apologize for the length, but there's a lot of material to cover.

Headphone reviews suck.
They really really do. It's not the reviewer's fault in the slightest that their audience (and therefore language) has to be somewhat specialized, but a novice looking to get their foot in the door can easily get lost with words like "bright sound" or "muddy bass." What the gently caress does any of that mean? People who mix music will have a general idea because they deal with the demands of content creators, and there's a rough consensus on what a lot of it is. This information isn't necessarily codified anywhere, though it's referenced ad infinitum online.

The other problems lie in the fact that sound is a known phenomenon. We know how to measure it, we know how to analyze it, we know how to chart it, we even know how to cancel it out when we don't want it. Pretty much any sound, however inaudible, can be measured in one of several ways. So why then, is there such a lack of precise language in discussion on headphones? Well, it's not fun. Also, the equipment necessary is stupidly expensive, training specialized, and there are so few people willing or able to put in the work to bridge the gap between novice and audiophile. Consequently, the reviews and articles that get attention are basically tailor-made for an interested audience loaded with shibboleths and unquantifiable adjectives that are sure to confuse someone who's never described sound as having qualities that are inherently impossible for a compression wave to have.

The Science
At this point, a refresher course on how you hear sound can't hurt, but the tl;dr version of it is:

1) Sound is directed down your ear canal by your pinna (outer ear)
2) Sound travels down your ear canal to your eardrum
3) Eardrum vibrates, moves inner ear bones
4) Inner ear bones (malleus, incus, stapes) interact with cochlea
5) Inside the cochlea are tiny hairs called stereocilia that move when jostled by fluid in cochlea
6) movement of stereocilia initiates the chemical process of sending signals to your brain to be interpreted as sound.

Kinda complicated, not gonna lie. The important bit here is that there are so many factors at any point that can alter what and how you hear the world, and this is extremely apparent when you plop headphones on your skull. While having excess earwax can gum up the works, other things like noise-induced hearing loss can occur in specific ranges of frequencies, your outer ears, a fever, your age, dehydration, tinnitus, etc. can all affect your hearing as well. This is important because your experience with certain headphones WILL NOT be identical to anyone else's, and this is why.

This isn't about headphones. You promised a post about headphones.

I'm getting to that. For now, I need to point out that due to the nature of how your ears work, there are certain "hardware limitations" of anyone listening to headphones. For example, if you're over the age of 25, chances are good that you can't hear anything above 17kHz (17,000Hz), and there are even anti-teen loitering devices made using this frequency, which most older adults cannot hear. Your ears are not as sensitive as you think. However, this does not stop some people from "hearing" things when given a positive suggestion. Don't don't don't take anyone's word on something unless they can show you proof, because there's always the risk that it's just bullshit. In comes the language aspect.

Finally.

While to a small segment of the audio enthusiast population, terms like "gritty" (increased distortion in the 30-65Hz range) mean something near-concrete for a certain purpose, unquantifiable adjectives are often used by marketing types to get you thinking that the gear they're hawking has a positive quality to it. Terms like "bright," "full," and "rich" are used to dupe people into associating the implied positive qualities to those words with something that cannot possibly be true. Sound does not give off light, nor can it contain anything, etc.

Because these marketing terms are aimed at the novice who knows that they aren't experts in the field, they see other people saying these things, and trust that they're meaningful. They're not, however, cognitive dissonance doesn't come into play until someone who buys into that language is confronted with the fact that it's total horse poo poo.

In an effort to find meaning in words that are bandied about without an actual definition, people associate qualities that by all accounts are fairly logical when you consider some of their implications. For example, a pair of headphones with "full" sound is often associated with a pair of cans that can output a large range of frequencies that include the harmonics of each note in your music. "Thin" or "tinny" sound is closer to what you hear from a telephone, which typically cuts off (or clips at 7-8kHz) at about half the range of frequencies that you can hear. Therefore, the range of frequencies (often listed a little greater than it actually is on the specifications of each pair of headphones) is what you're looking for here.

Neat. Translations.

Not quite, but there are more terms that have rough associations with real phenomena. There are others that don't, but by the end of this you'll probably categorically reject any more unquantifiable adjectives anyways.

Terms like "dark," "bright," "overpowering," "sweet" etc actually refer to certain ranges of emphasis or underemphasis; frequencies that are made to be louder or softer than others. If you look at a frequency response graph, it can be a little daunting, but the relevant information is easy to glean with some direction. For the sake of brevity in this post (har har) you should read this article on how to read an FR graph, as it puts it into a good perspective.

The short of it? A flat frequency response (all frequencies output at the same volume dB) is "ideal." However, this isn't ideal for everyone, and more suited for content creators than casual listeners. Most headphones have a more erratic response to emphasize certain ranges of frequencies to boost what people typically like in music. Any child of the 80s will remember bass boost; the Beats boost this range of frequencies to a crazy degree, but some people like that. Same goes for higher frequencies too: many manufacturers boost the 5-9kHz range to get some of the harmonic frequencies or higher-pitched stuff that gets lost behind other emphasized frequency ranges to show up in your music.

Bleargh, booo-ringg

Yep, and it gets worse. Headphones are based on lots of really old technology. The consumer-grade stuff is based on a lot of the same patents used in your regular old computer speakers, so there are other things that will impact what you hear out of your headphones. Your drivers (speakers) can only move so fast to produce sound, and this will add some low-level distortion to your music, as well as make some frequency sounds linger for a while. In music, this often means that a low frequency sound like a drum or bass drop lasts a bit longer than it should, but this can be measured by sending a quick burst of sound (or impulse) at a high level, and measure with a microphone apparatus how long it takes for the burst to be gone. A long response means that some sounds are likely to linger on too long and cover up less powerful sounds, and a short response means that this malady is unlikely.

This is usually referred to as "leaking," but that's really not an accurate term, now is it?

Oh, that's useful. What else can be measured?

All sorts of stuff. Tracking, for example, is measuring the channel preference (which side is louder at certain frequencies) of your headphones, which can completely ruin your experience through making certain instruments sound like they're only coming in one ear or the other. Very distracting.

Other things that can be measured are response time (how quickly/accurately the headphones can create sound and change frequencies), total harmonic distortion calculates the total distortion along all harmonics of frequencies (the higher the measure, the worse your music will sound), and even interference from comb filtering from echoes of sound at the same amplitude and frequency can cancel out short ranges of sound (typically only a problem with closed-back cans). There are tons of things that can affect your listening experience, 99% of which can be scientifically measured, displayed in a graph, and explained to you.

The Un-science

Believe it or not, your brain makes decisions on its own about a lot of things. Typically, this doesn't matter in your day-to-day life, but remember when you were little, and you asked Dad a million questions and never thought to fact-check? Like it or not, when it comes to new subjects, you still do the same thing. If someone you trust tells you that something is so, you tend to believe it. There is a big rift between people who think sound can't be objectively measured (Subjectivists), and those who do (Objectivists) . While the sides outlined in the link highlight the extremes, a fair bit of what happens in your listening actually happens in your brain, and not in your ears.

You just championed science, and now you're telling me that subjective stuff matters too?

Sometimes. A lot of it has to do with neuroscience though, and unless you're willing to do an intense study of your own thought processes with electrodes, lab workers at a university, and a generous grant, this ain't getting measured by science. However, that's not to say that any of that stuff mentioned before doesn't matter: it does. What I'm going to hash out now is simply highlighting that your brain plays tricks on you, and anyone thinking that the placebo effect doesn't play a role in how people view their own products is a fool.

So I'm an idiot now

What? No. Misled? Maybe, but I like to use the term: "not an expert in neuroscience." Not as pejorative, I think, and honestly, most anyone should be okay with not holding a PhD in that field. Anyways, your brain is an amazing organ. Like the internet, it is the center of a vast amount of information and control. Also like the internet, it does a lot of stupid poo poo. It has the ability to give you false sensory output (or alter it), and disregard some things over others. As you may have guessed, your hearing isn't immune from this tendency.

Based on a laundry list of factors, your hearing (or rather, your brain's interpretation of sound) can be altered. For example, your brand-new headphones are described as sounding a certain way, and due to the aforementioned placebo effect, you'll convince yourself you hear it.

Listening to communities that use the strange unsubstantiated adjectives also has a sociological component too: reasoning in groups can have lasting effects on a large population of homogenous (ie, shared background assumptions and views) people's widely-held assumptions, and opposing viewpoints are often disregarded. Beliefs that come about as a result of confirmation bias can trigger a placebo effect, and if this happens how you perceive sound will be impacted in some capacity by what assumptions and beliefs you hold.

Weird. So how do I find headphones I like?

The dirty little secret is, if you find headphones that work for you, fantastic, those are great headphones. This differs from person to person wildly, and you should never feel bad for liking something different. When you get into the higher end, you might run across headphones that have different electrical requirements, but overall, there is no one best pair of headphones because different people value different things in their cans. Unless you're comparing certain performance points, rarely can you say that one set of headphones is objectively better than another. This thread can help you find headphones to fit certain needs, but overall, it's tough to find reviews or opinions that will leave you with a complete picture of how a pair of headphones work for you. Go out to a brick and mortar store, try some on.

If you can't, there are a couple review sites out there that use scientifically-collected data, and if you like that, great! However, some of the data can get confusing. Just do the best you can, and think hard about what you really like about some headphones, what you hate, and just keep on truckin'. You'll find something that works for you eventually.

Let me know if y'all need anything else out of the thread before it gets archived.

Agreed fucked around with this message at 15:39 on Aug 7, 2013

# ¿ Aug 7, 2013 15:36

Agreed: Dec 30, 2003; The price of meat has just gone up, and your old lady has just gone down

Yeah, now's the time to let me know if there are any especially important things that need to be grabbed from the old thread - I can still open and close it for the time being, so any utilities we'll be losing in the near future are still available until it hits archives. But kind of a time sensitive thing.

# ¿ Aug 7, 2013 16:08

Agreed: Dec 30, 2003; The price of meat has just gone up, and your old lady has just gone down

TenementFunster posted:

If you think an "Internet Expert" is gonna get a pass on pulling a complete 180 on a hysterical, dumbfuck opinion then you seriously need to get a reality check. Constantly giving out recommendations as if they were the revealed word of Jesus Christ then backtracking once you simply change your "attitude" is a doing a disservice to everyone who comes in this thread looking for advice.

You should probably be a little more reluctant to post post post.

Ah man cut him a break, he admitted he was hasty and in my opinion he's had a lot of experience since then. This may be a pet issue for you, but it's clearly no longer a pet issue for him, he said he was sorry for hurting your feelings before, and that he was wrong at that - who admits guilt on the internet?? woah - let's just all chill out

# ¿ Aug 10, 2013 01:13

Agreed: Dec 30, 2003; The price of meat has just gone up, and your old lady has just gone down

Ultimate Mango posted:

I can't wait to hear Midorka's opinion of the Asgard 2. I am about to get some serious low impedance iems and am considering getting one to go with them. My current amp has output impedance higher than the impedance of my new custom ten driver iems, so I figure that can't be good...

Depends on how important your square waves being square are to you

# ¿ Aug 10, 2013 03:22

Agreed: Dec 30, 2003; The price of meat has just gone up, and your old lady has just gone down

I got on the Senn HD-660 S at $299 deal. Loving them. My favorites over the years have been Beyer DT-990 & DT-770, AKG Q701 and Senn HD-650, haven't updated my headphone collection in about a decade now :ohdear:

Really fell off from my college days and up til like 2012 or so, back when I made threads like this one. Anyway - I've read that these are polarizing but for my tastes they're very nice sounding cans. Driver feels faster than the HD-650's, maybe not as much sub bass going on but the bass still has impact, clearer than on the HD-650. They have a good overall midrange character, easy to hear different elements of the sound. I am digging the sound presentation and enjoying listening with them. I doubt they'll replace the Q701 as my mixing reference cans, at least not until I've had a whole lot more time with them, but I dunno, there's a lot of clarity to the mids here that I might want to listen close with sometime.

Edit: Been listening to them all evening, and comparing A/B with the HD-650 - I feel they are an improvement on the older 600 models, at least to my ears. They seem considerably more responsive when it comes to reproduction of lower frequencies and midrange. Hearing some small elements of recordings, little mixing choices as far as panning and fading, etc. very well with them.

Agreed fucked around with this message at 01:52 on Oct 14, 2022

# ¿ Oct 13, 2022 20:32

Agreed: Dec 30, 2003; The price of meat has just gone up, and your old lady has just gone down

770 has a lot of bass going on because of the closed back, but it's a pretty good sounding closed headphone I reckon. I personally enjoy how the 990 sounds for music (more of a "fun" than an accurate tuning to them, kinda hyped sound), whereas the 770 I use for monitoring with isolation, which they provide pretty well. Exceptionally durable headphones, and if you look you can find them for like $120-140 on Amazon sometimes (DT-990 for $124, DT-770 for $137), which is a good deal if you ask me.

I haven't found the higher ohm models to be particularly difficult to power, and have used them off of laptop headphone jacks and portable players in the time that I've had 'em. The pads wear out eventually but replacements are readily available, and eventually can be a while depending on how often you use them and all that.

I paid $199 for my DT-990 in 2011 and $169 for my DT-770 'round the same time, they're still going strong.

Agreed fucked around with this message at 07:27 on Oct 16, 2022

# ¿ Oct 16, 2022 07:12

Agreed: Dec 30, 2003; The price of meat has just gone up, and your old lady has just gone down

Loving a set of AKG K712 Pro I picked up! They're like Q701 with better low frequency handling (I want to emphasize just how big of an improvement it is there - these have nice lows, not super hyped or anything but you can hear it all well there). Great soundstage, really nice overall sound. I saw them at Thomann for like $156 before shipping and couldn't refuse, but I am glad I went for it. I might look into a replacement cable just because I'm not a huge fan of the relatively thin n' flimsy AKG stock cable here (not because I think the sound is deficient, I don't expect any changes there).

Still loving the HD 660 S also. I might pick up a set of Audio-Technica ATH-A990Z soon to round out my trip back into headphones, as I used to really love the ATH-A900 when I had those (twice, actually). Well, ok, I guess I'd still need one of the newer revamped Beyer X series to make it a complete update, getting the "newer and improved...er" versions of my old favorites.

Agreed fucked around with this message at 02:24 on Nov 15, 2022

# ¿ Nov 14, 2022 22:47

Agreed: Dec 30, 2003; The price of meat has just gone up, and your old lady has just gone down

Must have typo'd that initially, sorry, I'll fix it

AKG K712 Pro!

Edit: I went ahead and pulled the trigger on some ATH-A990Z also, as Thomann confirmed they'll be getting stock soon and had a good price on those also. I've read very good things about them from others who have used and loved the A900X - I'm eager to see how they do for me.

I need to sell a few guitar pedals and put the proceeds toward some Beyer DT-700 X Pro and DT-900 X Pro to have my whole kit updated!

Agreed fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Nov 15, 2022

# ¿ Nov 15, 2022 02:24

Agreed: Dec 30, 2003; The price of meat has just gone up, and your old lady has just gone down

I got in some deep Schiit, y'all. I was already looking at a DAC/amp combo from Schiit when suddenly the ones I was looking at disappeared and were replaced with a new generation, Magni+ and Modi+. I ended up picking up the little stack and they sound great - no obvious deficiencies at all to my ears, noticeable improvement over my audio interface's headphone out (well, being USB powered it's got some limitations to be fair, vs. the Magni's like +/-16v up to 5W between both channels, surprisingly powerful at the price range - but that's based on old expectations, I dunno, maybe there are other nice ones available at the price now, "this one is mine"), and my headphones that are more demanding on power delivery to sound right appreciate the upgrade very much.

Then Schiit did something weird for them and had their first ever Black Friday sale (still ongoing) - that put the Loki Mini+ down to $99, and I jumped on one to make it a "complete" little rig, why not. I asked if the Loki Mini+ is on the chopping block soon since they feature the older 4-screws-on-top chassis, and in their Magni+ & Magni Heretic/Modi+ announcement post Schiit noted that they've moved to a different aim for how they're stamping their enclosures. Jason said the product will remain the same circuit, but it will get an updated chassis in 2023. I'm 10,000% fine with screws on top, I don't give half a schiit where the screws are TBH and $50 off is cool.

Also, I got the ATH-A990Z in today! I think they're a very fine continuation of the lineup. I used to really love the old A900 in the 2000s - I think they've made them smaller since then, because I remember the A900 being as big around as a CD but these are a little more reasonably sized, and fit a little more snugly which is for the best. No need to get any rubber bands out after 'em. I love their overall sound profile, a little bit more bass and lower mids than the A900 going by memory (... for what that's worth, it has been a while y'all) but a great overall perception of stereo image, and a very "fun" sound.

I refurbished my old DT-770 250-ohm with some new pads and they are almost shockingly improved, but the old pads were really... really worn out, to the point that they sat supra-aurally and had no noise isolation anymore, so that's probably par for the course even if it was :drat:

to hear. I think when I get an updated Beyer I'll go for the DT-700 Pro X to see what they're doing with that one.

Getting back into headphones has been a lot of fun

Agreed fucked around with this message at 00:53 on Nov 29, 2022

# ¿ Nov 29, 2022 00:19

Agreed: Dec 30, 2003; The price of meat has just gone up, and your old lady has just gone down

redeyes posted:

Sparkos SS2590

Cool post in general but these things have me fascinated right now - so they're making discrete topology circuits that slot into op-amp sockets, provided there's room?

I have to admit I am impressed by how much the Magni+/Modi+ has added to my listening experience; I'm more open to eventually trying a more expensive amp than I used to be. One day - this is doing great for me right now and it is not a priority for the near future.

Agreed fucked around with this message at 08:28 on Nov 29, 2022

# ¿ Nov 29, 2022 04:08

Agreed: Dec 30, 2003; The price of meat has just gone up, and your old lady has just gone down

Got the last part of the setup in today, behold my stack of Schiit:

I really like 'em

# ¿ Nov 30, 2022 19:08

Agreed: Dec 30, 2003; The price of meat has just gone up, and your old lady has just gone down

Dogen posted:

I believe that�s a crock or a pile, technically speaking

Yessir

I have a feeling before all's said and done I'm going to end up with even more Schiit on my hands. Nice sounding gear, makes me curious as to what they could give me for a bit more investment, eventually.

8-bit Miniboss posted:

Hmmm... I'm either going to be owned or pleasantly surprised with my recent purchase from Woot...

When I bought it:

When I checked after getting my tracking info:

Well that sucks - it's happened to me too, even kind of recently. Korg blew out their OpSix synthesizer, cascaded through a few sites as the shock of seeing this ~700-$800 synth for a mere $329 worked its way through the industry. I got on the train kinda late and got one from Musician's Friend, labeled New on the page, but then they pulled a fast one on everybody and swapped the listing over to Open Box after they'd already made a bunch of sales. But even that was getting lucky, as lots of people that ordered them didn't even get one, just unceremoniously canceled because they oversold them. Good news is in my case it arrived in absolutely flawless condition, and I griped at them to the tune of getting $50 in store credit, so in my eyes all's well that ends well. Here's hoping you too don't have too much to grumble about in the end & get a good product.

# ¿ Nov 30, 2022 23:55

Agreed: Dec 30, 2003; The price of meat has just gone up, and your old lady has just gone down

qirex posted:

Here is my stack, such as it is. Sounds great even though it looks stupid.

Fortunately the screen doesn�t stay on, I activated it to make the photo less of a grey rectangle.

That looks nicely portable, what is it?

# ¿ Dec 1, 2022 17:54

Agreed: Dec 30, 2003; The price of meat has just gone up, and your old lady has just gone down

Cool! I had a bad experience with a Fiio E9 once upon a time (2011), just died on me without any warning signs one day. It made me kind of wary of the brand. Looking at the specs of the btr7 though it seems like they're using quality parts, maybe mine was just bad luck.

Agreed fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Dec 1, 2022

# ¿ Dec 1, 2022 19:22

Agreed: Dec 30, 2003; The price of meat has just gone up, and your old lady has just gone down

I'm finally gonna get some DT-880/600ohm. I've had 770s and 990s forever, I dunno why I didn't just try 'em already (I guess I was fine with what I had, and the price to satisfy that curiosity used to be a lot higher for 'em) - but in 2023 I'm gonna see what this headphone that most of the R&D was probably done by 1980 sounds like. I remember back in the 2000s looking between these and HD-650s, I think they were like $400 or more back then.

Agreed fucked around with this message at 07:58 on Mar 20, 2023

# ¿ Mar 20, 2023 07:49

Agreed: Dec 30, 2003; The price of meat has just gone up, and your old lady has just gone down

DT-880 / 600ohm are making a seriously strong first impression. I can't say I wish I'd got them to begin with over my trusty 650s back when they were both over $400; I do love the Sennheiser house sound (HD-650 remain one of the most pleasing phones to listen to that I've ever had). But I'm definitely glad I got them now. You can get them for under $170 pretty reliably if you just look out for deals, even cheaper if refurb doesn't bug you. They definitely love an amp. Resolution of fine details and low frequency control is way better on these than my 250ohm 770s as expected given those are closed and given the 250ohm drivers' differing impulse response, and while my 250ohm 990s do better than the 770s since they're open, there's a pronounced improvement in bass quality here whereas the 990 can overwhelm with quantity and be a bit spiky in the treble freqs too. These 880/600 do have some treble emphasis but it is nowhere near as aggressive and their sound overall is nicely balanced (for my personal tastes, of course). Super comfy, too.

Agreed fucked around with this message at 22:13 on Mar 21, 2023

# ¿ Mar 21, 2023 21:52

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# ¿ May 3, 2024 08:37

Agreed: Dec 30, 2003; The price of meat has just gone up, and your old lady has just gone down

Man these DT-880/600 have me remembering why I loved the Beyer sound back when I tried them in the '00s. Old flagships may not have the measurements that wow headphone lovers today but they still sound great to me.

I went ahead and got a set of DT-990/600ohm also. I loved DT-990 when mine were new but the years have been harder on them than my other headphones as they were so favored I kinda wore 'em out. I've refurbished them best I can, new pads, stabilized some wear in the cable strain relief that had become loose, worried me with those small wires but I've got it set now so it and they can't move, gave 'em to my kiddo so he can have a set of decent wired headphones and I'm upgrading to the 600ohm Edition ones. The fit of Beyer's "Premium" / Edition lineup is perfect for my head, just super comfortable, and I've been convinced by the DT-880s there really is something to the higher impedance drivers having a slightly more resolving overall response when driven appropriately - eager to see what it does for the DT-990

I loved their sound signature when I first got them, "fun" headphone with great treble detail that could also be spiky with some material, and nice bass impact (especially for an open headphone of its era) though it could become boomy with some music too. I've read the 600 ohm helps both of those, brings them a bit down from their heights. Soon I'll know!

# ¿ Mar 24, 2023 02:38

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Inspect Your Gadgets > Let's Talk Headphones IV: Should I get Beats? Do I need Noise Cancelling?