Jedit posted:

They should have called that song "If You Can't Beat The Fascists, Join Them".

MeLKoR posted:

The birth of the nation state and subsequently the rise of nationalism was the tool for population control that Machiavelli wish he'd came up with. When people were oppressed by the monarchy/aristocracy there was always a chance they would renege their fealty to their liege lords and support the claims of some usurper, either national or foreign, that promised them a better deal/treatment. You see it happening time and time and time again. Shift the allegiance of the population from a personal allegiance to their rulers into allegiance to "the state" and in one fell swoop you get rid of a whole possible vehicle for deposition.

MeLKoR posted:

As opposed to meekly and ineffectually grumbling and protesting? If the left was perceived to still have any remaining teeth we wouldn't be in the world of poo poo we are today.

MeLKoR posted:

As opposed to meekly and ineffectually grumbling and protesting? If the left was perceived to still have any remaining teeth we wouldn't be in the world of poo poo we are today.

Jedit posted:

No, if racist elements weren't taking advantage of social and economic turmoil we wouldn't be in the poo poo we're in. "Fighting" fascism by sending out your own squads of skinheaded boot boys isn't going to fix it, it's just going to put violent scum on both sides. And at that point we are lost, because there will be nobody fighting fascism any more - just a difference of opinion in who should receive the brutal beating in order to "preserve our unity".

Obdicut posted:

First, Machiavelli was a republican.

quote:

Second, how did this whole 'supporting the usurping lord' thing work out for the people? It's not like this was a vehicle for actual change, it was still supporting the status quo-- it was supporting the entire political system of "these nobles are in charge".

quote:

Between 1971 and 1991 in Czechoslovakia, now Czech Republic and Slovakia, the “reduction of the Roma population” through surgical sterilization, performed without the knowledge of the women themselves, was a widespread governmental practice. The sterilization would be performed on Romani women without their knowledge during Caesarean sections or abortions. Some of the victims claim that they were made to sign documents without understanding their content. By signing these documents, they involuntarily authorized the hospital to sterilize them. In exchange, they sometimes were offered financial compensation or material benefits like furniture from Social Services – though it was not explicitly stated what this compensation was for. The justification for sterilization practices according to the stakeholders was “high, unhealthy” reproduction.

They sterilized thousands of Roma women in this way. The Czech ombudsman estimated that more than 90,000 women from former Czechoslovakia became infertile as a consequence of such interventions. If the evidence for such treatments performed in the past is not alarming enough, there seems to be proof that this practice was not only common during the Communist era: there are women reporting the same crime in post-Communist times as well, even after Czechoslovakia split into Czech Republic and Slovakia. In what is today Slovakia, 1000 Roma women and girls were sterilized annually in the 1980s. Unfortunately, the practice of forced sterilization in this region of Europe seems to persist to some extent, with cases emerging in other countries as well.

The European Roma Rights Centre pointed at two cases of Romani women who were sterilized in Hungary without their consent. One of them relates back to 2001, when a young woman, A.S. accused a hospital for sterilizing her without her knowledge. Following eight years of intensive lobbying, with several organizations started pressuring the government, in 2009 the Hungarian state compensated A.S. The court acknowledged that the surgery was performed without her knowledge, but it also claimed that the surgery did not harm A.S.’s reproductive capacity as the sterilization was purportedly “reversible”. The second case taken up by ERRC is still in process, as it was rejected in the first instance by the Hungarian Court.

quote:

Under the leadership of Becali, the ideology of the party has come close to that of the inter-war fascist legionary movement with an added twist of opportunism, demagogy and gutter talk. In the past, Becali has appropriated symbols and slogans of the Iron Guard, and the party slogan currently displayed on its official website - »Serving the Cross and the Romanian Nation!« – reflects this fusion of conservative Christian Orthodoxy and mythologised nationalism. In terms of structure, the PNG-CD resembles the PRM inasmuch as it is largely centred on its leader. Thus, what the party lacks in programme is made up for by Becali’s insulting language, homophobia and intolerance. So far he has been fined several times by the National Council for Combating Discrimination for making discriminatory statements against women, the Roma and other ethnic minorities, and he is well known for his homophobic statements. At one point he stated that he would never hire gay players in his football team and that »homosexuals are protected by Satan« (ProTV, 2012)

quote:

The inclusion of the Romanian Orthodox Church (BOR) in a study of the extreme right in Romania is motivated by the role it has played in informing and influencing the extreme right discourse in Romania. The BOR has a long history of articulating and/or supporting an ethnically based conception of the nation. Over time, the BOR ideological position has intersected (directly or implicitly) with that of other extremist political groups. In inter-war Romania, the collaboration between the Iron Guard and the Orthodox Church was extensive, with a large number of priests sympathising with the Iron Guard and even running in elections for the »Everything for the Country« Party (Iordachi, 2004: 35). Currently, the attitude of the BOR can be summarised – as Andreescu (2004:178) points out – in terms of four characteristics: its exclusivist nationalist definition of the Romanian state (equating the Romanian state with the Romanian nation and the Romanian nation with the Christian Orthodox faith); its authoritarian, fundamentalist tendency to subordinate the notion of rule of law to that of divine right; the use of aggressive instruments to protect its position; and its ability to mobilise people and resources to achieve its aims.

Considering that Romania recently occupied sixth place in a global index of religiosity (WIN-Gallup International 2012) and that Christian Orthodoxy is the dominant religion in Romania, it is no surprise that the BOR manages to exercise such a large degree of influence over public life. Owing to this privileged position, it is common for political figures to pander to the BOR. Political figures across the whole political spectrum often attend various religious celebrations to gain political advantage. The BOR is also able to exert pressure on parliament and on political parties in order to achieve favourable outcomes for its various causes. During the electoral campaign of 2004, for example, after being repeatedly criticised by Pimen, the Archbishop of Suceava and Rădăuţi, then Prime Minister and presidential candidate Adrian Năstase was forced to seek a public reconciliation with the Archbishop and to pledge support in pressing the court case concerning the return of 90,000 hectares of forest to the Orthodox Church (Ziarul de Iaşi, 2004).

The nationalist and intolerant attitudes of the BOR are visible through its involvement in other areas of public life. It has, for example, been a staunch activist against the rights of sexual minorities through its publications and has provided a rallying point for other civil society groups campaigning against the rights of homosexuals in Romania. In addition, there are documented links between the BOR and neo-legionary groups in Romania, including meetings of such organisations hosted in churches or participation by Orthodox priests in events organised by them.

Consequently, the BOR has played an important role in the shaping of the extreme right in Romania. Its ideological position has functioned as a key reference point and source of inspiration for various such movements and organisations, which have incorporated aspects of it in their discourse. On a more concrete level, the BOR’s involvement in public life has often lent legitimacy to attitudes and actions and even provided a point of convergence for extremist views.

Jedit posted:

They should have called that song "If You Can't Beat The Fascists, Join Them".

Pesmerga posted:

So, in your opinion the battle of Cable Street was wrong then?

Jedit posted:

No, if racist elements weren't taking advantage of social and economic turmoil we wouldn't be in the poo poo we're in. "Fighting" fascism by sending out your own squads of skinheaded boot boys isn't going to fix it, it's just going to put violent scum on both sides. And at that point we are lost, because there will be nobody fighting fascism any more - just a difference of opinion in who should receive the brutal beating in order to "preserve our unity".

Jedit posted:

No, if racist elements weren't taking advantage of social and economic turmoil we wouldn't be in the poo poo we're in. "Fighting" fascism by sending out your own squads of skinheaded boot boys isn't going to fix it, it's just going to put violent scum on both sides. And at that point we are lost, because there will be nobody fighting fascism any more - just a difference of opinion in who should receive the brutal beating in order to "preserve our unity".

poidinger posted:

quote:

While holding a one-man protest against LGBT rights violations in Russia, activist Krill Kalugin was attacked by an angry mob of Russian military paratroopers in St. Petersburg Friday, August 2. The Russian paratroopers were celebrating Russia’s Paratroopers Day, an annual military pride celebration which according to the Animal New York traditionally involves groups of soldiers spilling into public square for merriment, flag waving, wallowing in public fountains and miscellaneous public drunkenness. In a video captured by PaperPaper.ru, a young man is surrounded by a mob of angry paratroopers who begin attacking him and hurling profanity laden questions at the young man. “What the gently caress were you thinking, showing up at Palace Square, human being?” yells the groups leader.

Only moments earlier, activist Krill Kalugin was peacefully picketing in the Palace Square with a rainbow banner that reads “This is propagating tolerance.” When the police finally show up to the detain the LGBT activist, the paratroopers begin attacking them as well. Russian special forces arrived (wearing “OMOH” jackets), and begin detaining the drunken soldiers only resulting in more fights between the soldiers and the police.

quote:

You may recognize Pavel Petel as an openly gay model-activist, and gender-bending muscle stud originally from the Ukraine, but currently living in Russia. With Russia’s recent passage of anti-gay laws basically forbidding the use of the word gay or any so-called homosexual ‘propaganda of nontraditional sexual relations,’ LGBT entertainment blog The Back Building interviewed Petel to see how he was coping and whether he was planning on leaving Russia.

Despite his muscular and masculine appearance, he’s says he is scared to walk down the streets in Moscow. He says he’s been harassed and beaten, and says he is even thinking of leaving Russia to escape the persecution that continues to worsen.

weavernaut posted:

From forever back, but there's a misconception that I feel I should correct.


The NPD is a laughing stock. I think they got like two seats in Parliament and can't do poo poo there. They don't even have election posters up right now. Compared to the Golden Dawn or BNP or whatever? loving amateurs.

weavernaut posted:

They're still a laughing stock. Just a better-organised one than the BNP?

No, seriously, I've heard no news of right-wing violence in Germany, especially not on the scale of Hungary, Greece, Russia et al, so posting photos of the NDP to prove me wrong when I say that Germany is very much unlikely to go fascist is idiotic. Germany is stable and the last time it was unstable was directly thanks to the Nazis. They're not keen on repeating the experience.

Today's Zaman posted:

Cover-up over neo-Nazi murders in Germany

In 2003 the Federal Constitutional Court of Germany ruled that banning the right-wing extremist National Democratic Party (NPD) -- the most significant neo-Nazi party to emerge since 1945, which campaigns on an anti-Muslim and anti-Semitic platform -- was unconstitutional.

The reason was that the NPD's leadership was infiltrated by informants from the German national security agency, the Office for the Protection of the Constitution (BfV). In its reasoning, the court said it could not ban a party whose policies may have been shaped in part by government agents. German magazine Spiegel reported that there were more than 130 informants in the party, and intelligence services were concerned that more than 100 could be exposed if the NPD was banned.

If we follow the reasoning behind the German court's decision, it is clear that the federal government knew very well what the NPD and its associates were up to since the beginning. In other words, German officials could not claim ignorance for the killings of eight Turkish and one Greek citizen -- apparently committed by neo-Nazi suspects who were affiliated with the NPD. It sounds like a joke but German prosecutors are now asking how the ultra-right racist group called the National Socialist Underground (NSU) could have stayed undetected for over a decade -- until November of last year, when two members were found dead in a burnt-out mobile home and a third, Beate Zschäpe, turned herself in to police.

Some claim there was a cover-up of the murders of Turks within the German security apparatus. Others say some factions within the government supported neo-Nazi gangs or at least turned a blind eye to the activities of these racist groups. In either case, it certainly gives credence to a widely circulated conspiracy theory that the German national intelligence agency has unfortunately become a tool used by authorities to profile immigrant groups and minorities for harassment. For instance, the BfV shamefully disclosed that an employee of the agency was actually present in April 2006 when two members of the NSU shot and killed a 21-year-old Turk. As the saying goes, there is no smoke without fire.

Further fueling suspicions, a report earlier this week detailed the German government's effort to silence the relatives of victims murdered by neo-Nazis by offering monetary compensation. It appears that Angela Merkel's government rushed to contain the damage inflicted by new revelations of links between the state and racist groups. According to the news report, compensation came with strings attached. As long as victims and their families agree to refrain from filing lawsuits against Germany over the tragic incidents, they would receive the money. The deal was sweet from the start; some victims received their first installment from the Ministry of Justice without even asking for it. A spokesperson for Justice Minister Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger said victims' families may be eligible to claim more compensation following an assessment of their situation. For all intents and purposes this is “hush money” intended to prevent further embarrassment for the German government.

For years German authorities have downplayed the significance of racist extremist movements and trivialized their existence, possibly out of guilt for Germany's Nazi past. When investigating the murders of Turks, authorities did not even look into racist groups. Rather, they focused on family members and other Turks as possible suspects, doubly victimizing Turkish families and further aggravating their pain. Considering the record of the German government in this matter, I suppose we have to take the words of Merkel with a grain of salt and approach the situation with caution. In November she promised a full investigation of the murders in a speech to the lower house of Parliament, saying “Our responsibility to the victims is to undertake everything possible to clear up these horrible crimes.” She acknowledged that German security services made “numerous failures” in allowing neo-Nazis to slip through their fingers. The same credibility problem also applies to the German Federal Parliament (the Bundestag), which last month established a commission to study how German security organizations failed to discover killings perpetrated by far right extremists in Germany.

Many analysts believe the NSU and other neo-Nazi groups cannot freely operate in Germany under the radar unless they receive political cover from government agencies or prominent parties like the NPD. It is interesting to note that that the NPD, which gets about one million euros from taxpayers in Germany, continues to expand its support base, especially among youth in economically distressed areas. It has already won seats in two state assemblies, although it has not yet won any at the federal parliament. There is compelling evidence linking neo-Nazi groups to the NPD.

On Wednesday, German police detained a 31-year-old man named Carsten S. who was a former top NPD official in the party's chapter in the eastern German city of Jena, where the neo-Nazi cell was based. He was the second NPD official accused of aiding the murderous neo-Nazi terror group. In November 2011, German police also arrested 35-year-old Ralf Wohlleben in the same city. Wohlleben, who was a senior NPD official in the state of Thuringia, is suspected of providing the group with weapons and ammunition. While hailing these detentions, Turkish officials also worry that the investigation will not find the real masterminds who plotted these murders. The fact that the neo-Nazi group was able to get legal documents under false names and successfully evade detection for 11 years raises questions of who in the government provided shelter for these gang members.

There is a growing sense of frustration among Turkish cabinet members that Germany is not doing enough to expose neo-Nazi groups, but rather taking steps to cover up the murders of more than 150 immigrants who have been killed at the hands of different right-wing extremist groups since 1990. I recently spoke with Bekir Bozdağ, the deputy prime minister, who is responsible for expatriates. He was highly critical of the German investigations that failed to assuage the pain in the hearts of Turkish people. He said that the mysterious neo-Nazi murders should be quickly solved. “Otherwise we will have encouraged the potential killers and invited new murders,” he warned.

This is not the first time, and certainly will not be the last time, that Turkey has warned Germany about the rise of racism, anti-Semitism, xenophobia and Islamophobia. Ankara is worried that the deepening economic crisis in Europe and soaring unemployment may exacerbate the situation for Turks in Germany and other European countries. It is a fact that 68 of the 88 foreigners whom the NSU gang planned to kill were Turks. The list also included a German Jewish legislator for the Green Party. Ankara has established a committee to record and follow racist incidents aimed at Turks in Germany, while the Foreign Ministry has instructed its embassy and consular officers to report anti-Turkish patterns in the country.

Bozdağ was unequivocally clear that the Turkish government will keep a close eye on what Germany does with respect to some three million Turks living there. “We will hold the German government accountable for the safety and security of Turks,” he emphasized.

quote:

Far-right extremists in eastern Germany quietly building a town for neo-Nazis

Next to a mural showing an idealized Aryan family, Gothic script declares that the village in eastern Germany is “free, social, national”. The signpost next to it once pointed the way to Hitler’s birthplace, 530 miles away in Austria, until a court order forced villagers to take it down.

The echoes of the Third Reich are quite deliberate. In Jamel, a tiny collection of red brick farmhouses fringed by forest, dozens of villagers describe themselves as Nazis and a majority turns out to vote for the far Right.

This is a place with little welcome for strangers. Rottweilers bark incessantly. A shaved-headed man shouts his own warning, while a woman shrieks an obscenity from her window.

Jamel is for some the tip of the iceberg; an indication of how the far Right in Germany is open and active, especially in areas of former East Germany where jobs are scarce.

This month, in Munich, the opening stages of a shocking trial have given further cause for introspection in a country which is being forced to confront the violent racism which pervades parts of its society.

Beate Zschaepe, 38, an apprentice gardener from Jena, East Germany, is accused of complicity in a series of racially motivated murders carried out by a neo-Nazi cell, the National Socialist Underground. The cell is being held responsible for the murder of eight men of Turkish origin, who were shot in the head at point-blank range.

Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, has apologized to the victims’ families, describing the killings as “a disgrace for our country.”

But the case has raised questions about official complacency. German security services and police failed to pursue tipoffs about the NSU, instead suspecting the immigrant victims of having links with organized crime.

Figures published by the German government showed that crime attributed to the far Right is rising, with more than 17,000 cases last year — of which 842 were violent acts. Authorities estimate that there are more than 22,000 Right-wing extremists in the country. Nearly half, around 9,800, are regarded by Germany’s security services as violent.

The figures have prompted politicians to promise a crackdown on extremist groups.

Yet in Jamel, Stefan Koester, a regional MP for the far-Right German National Democratic Party (NPD), boasts that his party won 6% of the vote in elections in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern — the state that includes the small village — and now has five MPs in the regional parliament.

He said: “We’re threatened on one side by immigration, on the other by low birthrate. Other parties want to attract human capital from other countries and we say that we can’t do that. Our families must have more children.”

The NPD emphasizes its communal activities — it hosts free drop-in sessions offering advice to citizens, and organizes children’s festivals. Its campaign posters show families playing on the beach with the slogan: “Stop the death of our people. The country needs German children.”

Officially, the NPD says that it rejects violence “for political ends”, but the threat seems to lurk in the background. Two years ago, Sven Krueger, an elected representative of the NPD in Jamel, was sentenced to four years in prison for illegal possession of a machine gun and an automatic pistol.

Krueger, a demolition contractor whose firm has the slogan “We are the boys for rough stuff,” was the driving force behind the neo-Nazi domination of Jamel and his family still live in the village.

He began buying up properties and encouraging supporters of the far Right to settle alongside him. More than half the families are now open neo-Nazi supporters.

Birgit Lohmeyer, an author, moved from Hamburg to Jamel with her husband 10 years ago. When the Lohmeyers bought their house, they were told that a “notorious neo-Nazi” lived here. Since then, they have become the minority. “It’s very tense,” Lohmeyer said. “My husband and I are the outlaws here.

“We are insulted, we are threatened, we are sabotaged in various ways. People drive their cars in front of ours and force us to brake. There is damage to property. Our postbox has been labelled with Nazi stickers and been stolen.

“There was a sticker saying, ‘No place for neo-Nazis’, and it was altered to read, ‘No place without neo-Nazis’.” The Lohmeyers have refused to be driven out. Lohmeyer said: “Our house is everything we wished for. No one will take it from us, neo-Nazis or anyone else.”

Some in the village insist there is no threat. One Jamel resident, a shaved-headed man whose back was covered in the Nordic-style tattoos favoured by the far Right, said: “Everyone is happy. Everybody’s friendly here, does everything together.”

Five miles up the road from Jamel, the constituency office of the NPD shares a building with the business address of Krueger’s firm, Krueger Demolition. A poster outside illustrates the vision of communal life offered by the NPD; there are white, Aryan-looking children taking part in a sack race, images of a torchlit parade, and shaved-headed youths beating military-style drums.

The fences are topped with razor wire and there is a prison camp-style watchtower. The NPD claims it is at risk of attack by Left-wing groups.

The building appears empty, but is evidently under surveillance; within minutes of outsiders arriving, a car pulls up with two heavy-set men inside. One of them rolls down a window to shout: “Get back to the west!” The car sweeps past again minutes later.

Except for cities such as Berlin, Dresden and Leipzig, eastern Germany has not shared in the economic success of the west since unification, creating fertile ground for extremists. A report last year said unemployment in the eastern states stood at 10.3 per cent, compared with six per cent in the rest of Germany. The east’s output per capita was less than three quarters that of the west.

The NSU, the tight-knit group to which Ms Zschaepe allegedly belonged, was based in Zwickau, in the eastern state of Thuringia.

Simone Oldenburg, a Left-wing politician who helps run a youth club near Jamel, said: “For 10 years the criminal acts of the NSU were not discovered. The state was asleep. It was dismissive. One had become blind to these crimes, and through this laxity, opened further the ground for Right-wing thinking and crimes.”

In places like Jamel, the far Right offers a message which combines an emphasis on communal activities with a defensive attitude to the outside world.

Koester, the regional MP for the NPD, said: “Many people want a different kind of politics. A politics which is social, family-friendly. Other parties don’t pursue these policies. The NPD offers an alternative.”

Across the east, the population is forecast to decline. In Germany as a whole, migration has halted this demographic decline. But migrants — particularly highly educated young people from southern Europe — have been drawn to the affluent south and west of Germany rather than the east.

Koester said his region was heading for a “population catastrophe”, adding: “In 1990, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern had two million people. If forecasts are correct, by 2050 we’ll have one million.”

When asked about Krueger, the NPD politician is guarded. “I know him, of course,” he admits. “He is the landlord of my constituency office. He committed a crime and must face the consequences.”

Asked about Jamel, Koester described it as “quite a normal little village”. He added: “Many of the occupants have their own views, and don’t want to pretend about what views they have.”

In Jamel, near where the signpost pointing to Hitler’s birthplace used to be, is a painting of a signpost which is equally designed to provoke: it points the way to Breslau, once in Germany but ceded to Poland, and Koenigsberg, now part of Russia.

“These places belonged to the German Reich,” said Uwe Wandel, mayor of the Gaegelow district which includes Jamel, standing by the painting.

In a democratic society, there is little than can be done to stop members of the far Right buying private houses, the mayor says, even if it leads to the creation of a neo-Nazi enclave. He is opposed to banning far-Right parties.

“We have to engage with people. And if they commit crimes, they should be prosecuted,” Wandel said.

The mayor says that he “wishes dearly” that the neo-Nazi problem would go away.

“But it won’t. There will always be people who think this way. There will always be National Socialists.”

Advocate.com posted:

Angela Merkel Says No to Repairing Inequality

n this photo taken by the AFP, German Chancellor Angela Merkel holds up a voting card on Tuesday and sides with those in her party, the Christian Democratic Union, who decided against treating same-sex couples the same as straight couples under tax law.

The Australian reports that Merkel had said she opposed equal treatment because she "sees marriage directly linked to the family and both are under the special protection of the state." Instead, her party considers only marriage between a man and a woman as protected by the country's constitution.

The Irish Times reported that more progressive elements of Merkel's party (which ended up reelecting her during the conference as its leader) proposed this evolution on the issue and argued it would be key to regaining waning support in urban areas. But Merkel opted to avoid angering more conservative supporters. With the nomination secured, Merkel now faces a general election in nine months and is seeking a third term as chancellor.

The country's top court is expected to weigh in on the constitutionality of tax inequality before the end of 2013.

weavernaut posted:

They're still a laughing stock. Just a better-organised one than the BNP?

No, seriously, I've heard no news of right-wing violence in Germany, especially not on the scale of Hungary, Greece, Russia et al, so posting photos of the NDP to prove me wrong when I say that Germany is very much unlikely to go fascist is idiotic. Germany is stable and the last time it was unstable was directly thanks to the Nazis. They're not keen on repeating the experience.

MeLKoR posted:

Right. Maybe it's a bit premature to start back-patting the German yet, though? Wait until Germany is experiencing over 25% unemployment in general and over 50% youth unemployment in particular and then we can tell if their memory remains as fresh.

Why would the german people be sliding into fascism? Things are still working out comparatively well for them as it is. When there is no more to squeeze from the periphery and their masters turn on them, then we shall see if that vaunted opposition to non-democratic "solutions" remains or is washed away in the torrent of anger and impotent liberal tears.

Abrasive Obelisk posted:

Can someone please post a summary of what is happening in Hungary? (I have family there, would like to know what exactly is going on)

Pesmerga posted:

I always like to see people quoting Foucault. But how does this factor into the aggressive push for business that fascism represents? I'd say in this respect, commodity is still fetishised, it's just a different type. That resistance against certain types of commodities gets co-opted into the accepted networks of power as an exercise of resistance to be quashed, and instead, new commodities that determine worth become important, be they flags, uniforms, and other symbols of power. It's also possible to argue that it's not the commodities that are the source of contention, but who possesses them/prevents them from being possessed by the 'right' people.

quote:

We don't want lower grain prices. We don't want higher grain prices. We want National Socialist grain prices.

bitterandtwisted posted:

Two seats in parliament is two more than the BNP have ever had.

Ardennes posted:

Yeah, I have to really question about the hygiene stuff as well, why does it need to be a priority at all? I guess it is just some culturally American thing to think all leftists=hippies, and hippies=dirty and people don't like dirty hippies. I wonder if it is sort of a result of Obama's style of conservative liberalism, that American progressivism has turned so far right, the emphasis is more on presenting a crisp attractive image than any actual substance.

Pesmerga posted:

So, in your opinion the battle of Cable Street was wrong then?

E-Tank posted:

Well, I've heard that basically every first grade (or thereabouts) gets sent off on a field trip where they learn what Fascism ended up causing, namely some of the concentration camps, and it's pretty much beat into their skulls that Fascism = = Baaaaaad. So I can see why Germany has gently caress all in terms of fascist nutjobs running around, if they weren't dissuaded from it as kids, the government cracked down on anyone showing signs. I'm glad you're safe though!


You could always find the Russian Embassy and tell them to sit and spin? I mean, I dunno if that's a thing. But yeah, going to Russia strictly to tell them "I don't want to be a member of your homophobic piece of poo poo country" sounds a bit dangerous.

-Troika- posted:

Don't the cops and legal system in Germany gleefully and energetically beat down any Neo-Nazi movements they can find as well?

Jedit posted:

It was right that the people of Cable Street stood against the fascists. It was wrong for them to make it a battle. When you're a hundred thousand strong, you don't need to fight to stop 3000 fascists coming through. You just stand there and say they will not. If there's violence, you let someone else start it. The Cable Street protesters chose to start the fight; in the process they surrendered the moral high ground. They also did a lot to prove that Mosley was right - there the BUF were, marching peacefully and legally, when the Jews roused the rabble against them and attacked the police for trying to maintain law and order (at least, that's how they span it). In the wake of the Battle there was a rise in anti-semitism that didn't die down until Hitler declared war.

It's been said that the Battle also led to the Public Order Act (1936) prohibiting political marches in uniform and requiring political groups to have government permission to march, both of which shut down the blackshirts nicely. The Battle wasn't the reason for that bill, though, it was the excuse. It's obvious if you look at it that the government didn't want Mosley to march but saw no way to prevent it. That's why the Act punished the BUF but did nothing to affect the Cable Street protesters. But if the Act was the response to the BUF being attacked then logically, any disruption at Cable Street would have led to an outcome for the Mosleyites that was the same or worse.

Jedit posted:

The Cable Street protesters chose to start the fight; in the process they surrendered the moral high ground.

quote:

They also did a lot to prove that Mosley was right

Cerebral Bore posted:

Truly it's the ~Moral High Ground~ that's important here and not, you know, actually stopping the fash.

Also the fash don't "march peacefully" by definition. Fascism is based on politicl violence, and even if they're not engaging in violence at the moment, they're preparing to engage in violence at a later date. Fascist marches are all about building unity within the movement and demonstrating their power so that they can go out and murder the undesirables later.

ThirdPartyView posted:

How strong is the National Front in France as a political party/influence?

Civilized Fishbot posted:

The ~Moral High Ground~ AKA ~Looking Like The Good Guys~ actually is important in winning public support. As was mentioned earlier, starting the violence against fascist groups feeds directly into fascist narratives and makes them stronger for when the violence toward undesirables actually happens. Occasional violent incidents against low-level members don't stop fascists, but convincing people to oppose fascists stops fascists. There's a difference between self-defense/defense of people in danger (important and useful) and doing things that allow fascist groups to paint themselves as victims/oppressed (harmful in the long run).

Kurtofan posted:

Politically they don't get much representation nationally thanks to the parliamentary system being a two round system per seats, but they are gaining influence and their rhetoric is depressingly common.

The mainstream right is trying to ape them in every way possible, by being anti immigrants, anti Muslims, anti gay, (they are actually more anti gay than the FN, at least they care about it a lot more) and the mainstream left doesn't want to repeal and didn't oppose some of the anti Muslim laws (veil bans in schools and full veil bans) and also deport Romas like the right did, which the FN advocates (while blaming the PS and UMP for letting Romas in the country).The

Xipe Totec posted:

Thanks for the CIA psyops pacifist/cowardice/apathy disinformation, Jedit.


Your plan is to look good on corporate media, so as to... win support... from the... public... while they consume political infotainment?

Glenn Zimmerman posted:

Is the Battle of Cable Street really that good of an example? I mean, it's not like Germany and Italy were lacking in violent conflicts between rightist and leftist paramilitary groups. Was the left simply not bashing hard enough?

KazigluBey posted:

Jesus loving Christ. You're literally spinning this into a moral victory for Mosley and the black-shirts, I can't loving believe it...

Ardennes posted:

A poll from May had Le Pen leading Hollande by 4% (latest on wikipedia), 24% of the country is substantial even if they haven't turned that support into seats because of France's voting system.

Jedit posted:

Then you need to open your eyes, because I'm not spinning anything - I'm reporting exactly what happened in 1936. History may recognise that Cable Street was the result of decent people standing up for their Jewish neighbours, but Mosley was able to win a lot of short-term public sympathy by painting it as the Jews responding to the Home Secretary's refusal to ban the BUF march at their demand by orchestrating a violent attack against legitimate authority figures defending the BUF's democratic rights.

Jedit posted:

legitimate authority figures defending the BUF's democratic rights.