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Cerebral Bore posted:Truly it's the ~Moral High Ground~ that's important here and not, you know, actually stopping the fash. The ~Moral High Ground~ AKA ~Looking Like The Good Guys~ actually is important in winning public support. As was mentioned earlier, starting the violence against fascist groups feeds directly into fascist narratives and makes them stronger for when the violence toward undesirables actually happens. Occasional violent incidents against low-level members don't stop fascists, but convincing people to oppose fascists stops fascists. There's a difference between self-defense/defense of people in danger (important and useful) and doing things that allow fascist groups to paint themselves as victims/oppressed (harmful in the long run).
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Aug 10, 2013 19:30
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Xipe Totec posted:Thanks for the CIA psyops pacifist/cowardice/apathy disinformation, Jedit. It's a good point that the media can basically distort any political event/response to make a particular political group look like the enemy. However, I think that such a capability just makes it easier for a single act of political violence to have drastic deleterious consequences for anti-fascist groups, which seems like it would dwarf any positive gains to be gotten out of beating up a few fascist party supporters.
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Aug 10, 2013 20:04
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Xipe Totec posted:By re-directing their hatred inwardly, is the return of fascism to Europa not a good thing for the world? Historically, European fascism has not contributed to global peace.
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Aug 10, 2013 22:35
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KazigluBey posted:But no, I'm sure you're right and the proper response to fascist movements is to ignore them and let them play politics as they wish. They're harmless and if we just let them become legitimate political actors they'll be pacified and play ball by the rules the democratic process asks. This in no way can backfire and has never backfired historically. Is there a reason why tactics such as raising awareness/providing alternatives so that individuals don't turn to fascism/politically empowering marginalized groups/aiding poor communities would not work in bringing down fascism? It seems like, from a preventing-fascism-is-the-only-goal standpoint, violent non-self-defense attacks against fascist groups provide them with major messaging advantages while not substantially harming them in the long run. However, given that fascism actually is repugnant and that people turn to it when they feel otherwise hopeless, it seems like resources would be much better spent on preventing the growth of fascist groups and increasing active opposition against them through outreach. Was there a historical major fascist movement that was just physically beaten down so much that everyone in the country/region decided to never join fascism?
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Aug 10, 2013 23:07
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KazigluBey posted:Is there a reason why this is an OR choice rather than an AND choice? Do these options cancel each other out? No, a group could certainly act against fascist groups in both violent and nonviolent ways. My concern is that acting against them in violent ways could prove to accomplish less than it would empower fascist groups through allowing them to claim oppression/violent repression - which could cause their own followers to become more radicalized and those on the fence to lean toward the supposedly-oppressed fascist group. If anti-fascist groups could accomplish a string of Battles of Hayes Pond, then that would work well - thanks for linking that article! It's an inspiring story that I didn't know about before today. The issue is that it would be really difficult to outnumber the Golden Dawn by 10:1, which happened in that retaliation. It seems like the Lumbee men were able to basically send away the entire area's Klan presence in a single night, and I'm not sure that could be done with today's European fascist groups.
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Aug 10, 2013 23:26
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Pesmerga posted:They're already claiming oppression and repression, it's one of the tenets of fascist discourse. You should watch the YouTube video I posted earlier. Attempting to reason with people swayed by fascist discourse is inherently limited, because the very act of appealing to various senses of liberal reason, non-violence and tolerance are diametrically opposed to what their belief system stands for. Leftists, 'liberals' and other groups are on the hate list as well. How much luck do you think the average Turkish immigrant in east Germany, or Roma in half of Europe has saying 'please, let's just discuss this rationally and reasonably, and you'll find I'm NOT the source of your social and economic problems, now could you please stop kicking me in the face?' I watched your video - thanks for pointing it out again. I love short documentaries like that, and I'm disappointed with myself for overlooking it before. Of course people in imminent danger from attack have every right to self-defense. In the face of one of the all-too-frequent Golden Dawn attacks or planned assault on a group of immigrants/ethnic minorities, I'm 100% in favor of a good samaritan providing physical self-defense on behalf of that person. I'm thinking about the benefits/losses of interrupting a fascist nonviolent rally or nonviolent march. It seems to me like the major flaw of violence against fascist groups would be allowing these groups to much more effectively claim oppression and repression. As you pointed out, that's a basic pillar of the fascist worldview, so I'm scared about the consequences of allowing such groups to make themselves appear to have been proven right. Maybe I just don't have enough respect for the impact of political violence on fascist movements, but it seems to me like even the largest possible "bash the fash" retaliation wouldn't be effective in taking one of the larger groups in Europe today out of commission. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 00:04 on Aug 11, 2013 |
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Aug 11, 2013 00:01
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Miltank posted:But nobody gives a poo poo about oppressed fascists. What fascist has ever been recruited with the idea of joining a repressed and impotent organization? I think the appeal is less "come and be beaten up by anti-fascists" and more "[INSERT NATIONALIST/RACIST IDEAL] is unjustly under physical attack from the establishment and you must help to the greatest extent possible before they wipe out [INSERT NATIONALIST/RACIST IDEAL] forever!"
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Aug 11, 2013 00:33
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HEGEL CURES THESES posted:"My own people" aren't those who happen to have been born wherever I happen to have been born, and that's supposed to be relevant only according to some ideology that has only been important for two hundred years or so, "my own people" are people who share my commitment to making the world better. Responding to statements made by Emden will not yield progress in any goal you have had, have, or ever will have. He will not stop being a Nazi on this internet forum until he runs out of 
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Aug 11, 2013 00:48
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SickZip posted:It's all alot of sound and fury and antifa activists are wasting their time on a bunch of lowlife scum who will get picked up by the police the moment they do something out of line. I am not sure that an immigrant in Greece today would agree with this assessment of the Golden Dawn.
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Aug 11, 2013 17:13
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Ardennes posted:If the GD can be stomped out with a ban it is worth it, but of course there is always the chance that it is too much support to stop at this point. The rest of parliament should have done this while they were a non-parliamentary party. How does it work to crack down on a party with sitting members of parliament? Would the PMs of Golden Dawn still get votes? What sort of historical precedent exists for this?
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Sep 19, 2013 04:40
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Omi-Polari posted:Or the reverse happens: swing voters move back to New Democracy and Golden Dawn's ability to organize and build support is gravely weakened; offices shut down across the country; etc. Yeah, by my understanding the Golden Dawn was marketing itself as the group where young male Greek youth could get things done and have an impact and make something of themselves, which doesn't work when the movement is being heavily repressed.
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Sep 28, 2013 23:45
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Mans posted:French, British and Dutch nationalists don't seem like the type of nationalists that bond well together. What's next, an alliance between Polish and Russian nationalists? It works fine when the nationalism is pretty much just racism.
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Oct 15, 2013 19:49
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Thrasophius posted:Thing is fascism always rears it's head were there is economic troubles, post WWI Europe being the most obvious example. Great depression occurs fascism spreads like wildfire across the continent, recession occurs nowadays and fascist parties are on the rise. It's not only people looking for scapegoats, but also an entire generation of young people (mostly young men) who have no money, no jobs, no power, and no cultural status. Then a fascist group comes around and promises them the chance to have power, guidance, and a meaningful identity.
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Oct 30, 2013 23:35
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Livingtrope posted:The only way to beat the fascist is to become the fascist. We're not going to become fascist, we're just going to empower the state to carry out extrajudicial murder based on political ideology and this will be perfectly safe for everyone else because
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Nov 2, 2013 21:10
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