|
Jacobin posted:On a related note, They should have called that song "If You Can't Beat The Fascists, Join Them".
|
#
¿
Aug 10, 2013 13:18
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 13, 2024 00:05 |
|
|
MeLKoR posted:As opposed to meekly and ineffectually grumbling and protesting? If the left was perceived to still have any remaining teeth we wouldn't be in the world of poo poo we are today. No, if racist elements weren't taking advantage of social and economic turmoil we wouldn't be in the poo poo we're in. "Fighting" fascism by sending out your own squads of skinheaded boot boys isn't going to fix it, it's just going to put violent scum on both sides. And at that point we are lost, because there will be nobody fighting fascism any more - just a difference of opinion in who should receive the brutal beating in order to "preserve our unity".
|
|
#
¿
Aug 10, 2013 13:48
|
|
|
Pesmerga posted:So, in your opinion the battle of Cable Street was wrong then? It was right that the people of Cable Street stood against the fascists. It was wrong for them to make it a battle. When you're a hundred thousand strong, you don't need to fight to stop 3000 fascists coming through. You just stand there and say they will not. If there's violence, you let someone else start it. The Cable Street protesters chose to start the fight; in the process they surrendered the moral high ground. They also did a lot to prove that Mosley was right - there the BUF were, marching peacefully and legally, when the Jews roused the rabble against them and attacked the police for trying to maintain law and order (at least, that's how they span it). In the wake of the Battle there was a rise in anti-semitism that didn't die down until Hitler declared war. It's been said that the Battle also led to the Public Order Act (1936) prohibiting political marches in uniform and requiring political groups to have government permission to march, both of which shut down the blackshirts nicely. The Battle wasn't the reason for that bill, though, it was the excuse. It's obvious if you look at it that the government didn't want Mosley to march but saw no way to prevent it. That's why the Act punished the BUF but did nothing to affect the Cable Street protesters. But if the Act was the response to the BUF being attacked then logically, any disruption at Cable Street would have led to an outcome for the Mosleyites that was the same or worse.
|
|
#
¿
Aug 10, 2013 18:57
|
|
|
KazigluBey posted:Jesus loving Christ. You're literally spinning this into a moral victory for Mosley and the black-shirts, I can't loving believe it... Then you need to open your eyes, because I'm not spinning anything - I'm reporting exactly what happened in 1936. History may recognise that Cable Street was the result of decent people standing up for their Jewish neighbours, but Mosley was able to win a lot of short-term public sympathy by painting it as the Jews responding to the Home Secretary's refusal to ban the BUF march at their demand by orchestrating a violent attack against legitimate authority figures defending the BUF's democratic rights.
|
|
#
¿
Aug 10, 2013 21:02
|
|
|
KazigluBey posted:Also, since what killed the BUF was government intervention I could claim just as glibly that it was Cable Street and other antifa events that attracted public attention to the BUF and subsequently helped solidify governmental interest in sorting out the problem. At no point have I ever said fascism should be ignored. The only thing I have said is that using their own weapons against them is counter-productive. Now, I believe this is the point where someone quotes Hitler?
|
|
#
¿
Aug 10, 2013 23:12
|
|
|
KazigluBey posted:I see you are ignoring the requests for citations. You know who else didn't back up his theories on society with hard facts? Says the man who hasn't even backed up his theory on what I said in this thread with a quote that proves it. A lot of the stuff I'd like to cite is very hard to find for various reasons, but here's a good quote from 'Some Lesser Known Aspects': The Anti-Fascist Campaign of the Board of Deputies of British Jews, 1936-40 by Daniel Tilles: quote:Second, and more significant, the famous Battle of Cable Street, at which 100,000 or so anti-fascists violently blocked a procession of 2,000 Blackshirts, while remembered as a decisive victory against fascism, actually boosted the BUF in the short term, energising its support, evoking some public sympathy, and generating publicity that attracted thousands of new recruits. This was representative of a wider trend, with Laski advised by numerous sources, including senior personnel within the Home Office and police force, as well as his own informants in the East End, that the BUF deliberately acted provocatively to incite violent opposition, with the aim of garnering press attention and casting itself as a victim. It was this understanding that informed the decision to encourage Jews to avoid physical confrontation, despite, as noted above, an awareness that this was a difficult demand to make of those confronted by the Blackshirts’ offensive behaviour. Citations on those facts come from Richard Thurlow's Fascism in Britain and Thomas P Linehan's East London for Mosley: The British Union of Fascists in East London and South-West Essex, 1933-40 And on the aftermath: quote:Moreover, Jewish involvement in this conflict had dangerous consequences for the community. Not only was it exploited in anti-Semitic propaganda, it also inspired physical violence against Jews. A week after Cable Street — declared by the BUF to be “Jewry’s biggest blunder,” with one speaker promising, “By God there is going to be a pogrom” — the most serious anti-Jewish violence of the interwar period took place, with a band of fascist youths attacking Jewish individuals and property in a rampage through the East End. So the violence at Cable Street didn't stop the fascists trying again. I've also been trying in vain to find results of the 1937 elections - London County Council only holds records back to 1964 - to verify claims I've seen on pro-fascist sites that the BUF vote share increased in both rounds of elections in that year. Those sites do have quotes from the Observer, the Guardian and the Daily Worker that would back up the claims, but the archives for all three newspapers are behind paywalls and I'm not going to use any quotes provided by fascists until I've had independent verification of context and existence.
|
|
#
¿
Aug 10, 2013 23:54
|
|
|
Install Windows posted:It definitely needs to be remembered that most of Europe needs LGBT rights progress pretty bad: Kind of shocking that the Russian Federation has managed to fall below Azerbaijan in the gay rights stakes. What's the red blob between Poland and Lithuania? I don't recognise the country.
|
|
#
¿
Aug 15, 2013 23:45
|
|
|
my dad posted:
It looks like they might not have committed barratry, but only because they don't ship legal cargoes. Also they haven't desecrated a graveyard (well, they probably have if they found a Jewish one, but they haven't been charged), committed treason, or had carnal knowledge of an animal.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 1, 2013 22:15
|
|
Is there some crime they didn't commit?
|
ekuNNN posted:I remember the Golden dawn tried to stage a protest on some Greek island a while back and got literally thrown into the ocean by the inhabitants, so maybe they landed on a boat on their way down?? Are you seriously trying to suggest that the Golden Dawn are being unfairly victimized with trumped up charges?
|
|
#
¿
Oct 2, 2013 12:16
|
|
|
ashgromnies posted:I think the implication is that Greeks are working in Austria and sending money back home. Like some Central American laborers in the US. Ah yes, that well known visual shorthand for working: lying in a hammock. I don't know what they could have done to say "Greeks are lazy scroungers stealing our money" without printing those exact words.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 3, 2013 10:21
|
|
|
Soviet Commubot posted:Speaking fascism in Europe, this is pretty terrifying: "Il n'ya pas de noir dans le Tricoleur Rejoindre le Front National!" Welcome to Britain in 1979. We're not fascist (yet).
|
|
#
¿
Oct 11, 2013 11:24
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:Eh, I would say the FN at least on social matters to significantly to the right of Thatcher. I think there's a word missing from this sentence, but I don't know where. Also I wasn't talking about Thatcher, but the British National Front. The French verse I put up was a rough equivalent to one sung by the NF back in the day, which ran "There ain't no black in the Union Jack/Join the National Front!"
|
|
#
¿
Oct 11, 2013 12:40
|
|
|
Baudolino posted:Defeating fascism in europe is going to be tricky. You can`t just go around being violent toward anyone who seems suspicious. That will lose you the support of the people. But you can`t just abandon the streets wich is to say the field of battle to them either. So some degree of force even if that means deadly force may be necessary. Ah but the minute you have a political murder on your hands you will be considered to be terrorists and then you are really hosed. Honestly the best solution seems to be false flag attack. Dress up in black gear, pretend to be fascits for a few months and then commit a horrible crime in the name of fascism so as to blacken it`s name. That way the state and the law will have to attack them. It needs to be something so horrific that it cannot be ignored, and it needs to be directed at white people. Give europe a thousand Brevik`s in every country and fascism will lose popular support. Give Europe a thousand Breiviks in every country and more than two million innocent people will die. The idea is to prevent the next Holocaust, not to loving enact it. Fascism can be defeated without pre-emptive violence. Woody Guthrie's guitar had "This Machine Kills Fascists" written on it, and it wasn't because he beaned them over the head with it.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 3, 2013 01:50
|
|
|
Radio Prune posted:Would anyone sincerely be upset if someone tossed a nail bomb in there? The minority communities whose people would be killed in the fascist reprisal attacks. Also nailbombs are pretty indiscriminate, so you'd probably hit someone who wasn't a fascist.
|
|
#
¿
Nov 12, 2013 19:02
|
|
|
Emden posted:There's no way it'll be a "sudden shift". Regardless, I'm not sure how they'll be treated. Probably very poorly no matter where they live. Racial mixing will definitely be frowned upon. Next important question: do you think this is a bad thing? Or would it be better if we hosed around until we're all beige and the racism problem disappears?
|
|
#
¿
Nov 26, 2013 01:29
|
|
|
Regarde Aduck posted:No bashing the fash in the bashing the fash room. Not that I recall. I do know that the Japanese looked down on the Koreans in that good old-fashioned untermenschen way for centuries, though, and were not at all happy when DNA evidence showed the two races had a common derivation.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 8, 2013 19:51
|
|
|
^^^ A good summary, duck monster, but I think you're understating the case on the headkickers. In my experience they're mostly in it for the aggro rather than to genuinely combat fascism. As such, they're averse to anything other than violent response including all other branches of anti-fascism, who they see as talking when they should be acting.Lead out in cuffs posted:A guy with 88 in his name coming in to post in a thread about fascism and then making posts apologising for the Greek Golden Dawn and rambling about racial purity is either a cunning troll or so hopelessly clueless he shouldn't be posting in DnD at all. No, no, you misunderstand. He happened to see an Arab friend of his passing by while he was talking and called out a greeting - "Hi, al-Hitla!" When he stuck out his right arm he was waving to attract his friend's attention. All perfectly innocent, I have no idea where you get these horrible libellous opinions from. Jedit fucked around with this message at 11:33 on Dec 31, 2013 |
|
#
¿
Dec 31, 2013 11:28
|
|
|
Shibawanko posted:He did. He repeatedly said that he expected to die for what he did, but saw it as necessary. That didn't stop him trying to shoot himself rather than face trial.
|
|
#
¿
Jan 3, 2014 10:30
|
|
|
Shibawanko posted:Besides the fact that it doesn't seem likely that an educated guy like that would try to kill himself by shooting himself in the jaw, and that he was most likely shot by his captors, what difference does it really make to the question of whether or not he was prepared to die? 1) Having an education does not make you automatically knowledgeable about guns. 2) If Robespierre had been willing and prepared to die, why would he panic when they came for him?
|
|
#
¿
Jan 3, 2014 12:18
|
|
|
MeLKoR posted:What, are we ignoring the countless political and military leaders that throughout history chose to kill themselves rather than be captured and/or tried? Make a list of the ones who said they expected from the start of their careers to be killed for what they did. It will be very short. Most of these people didn't expect to lose, and most of them expected to get away with what they did when they won.
|
|
#
¿
Jan 3, 2014 13:12
|
|
|
Pope Guilty posted:I suspect it's some nonsense about how he should've stood trial for his beliefs and gone to his death nobly and so on and so on and romantic silliness. Yes, but not my romantic silliness. When you say things like "I will be killed for what I'm doing, but I'm doing it anyway because it is necessary" then you want people to think you are making a noble sacrifice. When they came for Robespierre and he responded with panic - which is certainly the case whether he botched the suicide attempt (likely) or was shot in a struggle - his convictions were proven hollow.
|
|
#
¿
Jan 3, 2014 14:53
|
|
|
MeLKoR posted:Well, aren't you a tough guy. I bet when your times comes you'll look death in the eye with a smirk on your lips. Your straw man should be put up against the wall and shot. I'm not the one talking smack about doing things that I know will lead to my death, so how I'd react to impending doom is completely without relevance.
|
|
#
¿
Jan 3, 2014 16:19
|
|
|
Tuxedo Catfish posted:Yes. Exactly the same thing happened to the sisters who were the neo-Nazi pop group Prussian Blue. They were raised in hate, took it as the way you should be, then they went to college and their views expanded.
|
|
#
¿
Jan 6, 2014 21:14
|
|
|
cargo cult posted:lol, c'mon man, I'm obviously part of an empowered minority group, given that I'm posting on this forum, but seriously, it's not bad at all for American minorities, please don't tell yourself otherwise, because I've experienced both sides first hand. My condolences on your having been lynched.
|
|
#
¿
Jan 11, 2014 11:24
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 13, 2024 00:05 |
|
|
visceril posted:Wasn't Britain the actual birthplace of fascism? No, that would be Imperial Rome.
|
|
#
¿
Jan 16, 2014 21:21
|
|