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Isn't throwing out a billion charges so that at least one will stick sort of a textbook approach to prosecuting the leaders of organized crime?
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Oct 2, 2013 00:05
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Jedit posted:It looks like they might not have committed barratry, but only because they don't ship legal cargoes. Also they haven't desecrated a graveyard (well, they probably have if they found a Jewish one, but they haven't been charged), committed treason, or had carnal knowledge of an animal. Not at the behest of the Golden Dawn, anyway. If members buggered a few animals in their private time, Ilias wouldn't be up for it.
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Oct 2, 2013 00:47
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Grouchy Smurf posted:Well, the indictment of the Golden Dawn spokesman and lawmaker Ilias Kasidiaris has been released. The articles under which he is charged, as translated by google: Braking bad? (I assume it is supposed to be declarations and the automatic translator got confused)
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Oct 2, 2013 01:44
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Hodgepodge posted:Isn't throwing out a billion charges so that at least one will stick sort of a textbook approach to prosecuting the leaders of organized crime?
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Oct 2, 2013 02:30
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Strudel Man posted:'Causing a shipwreck' in particular is pretty eyebrow-raising. Though that might be a mistranslation. Trafickers/human smugglers have been known to run ships aground and abandoning their "customers" off the coasts of Greece and Italy.
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Oct 2, 2013 04:19
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Strudel Man posted:'Causing a shipwreck' in particular is pretty eyebrow-raising. Though that might be a mistranslation. I remember the Golden dawn tried to stage a protest on some Greek island a while back and got literally thrown into the ocean by the inhabitants, so maybe they landed on a boat on their way down??
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Oct 2, 2013 06:33
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ekuNNN posted:I remember the Golden dawn tried to stage a protest on some Greek island a while back and got literally thrown into the ocean by the inhabitants, so maybe they landed on a boat on their way down?? Are you seriously trying to suggest that the Golden Dawn are being unfairly victimized with trumped up charges?
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Oct 2, 2013 12:16
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Trumped up charges deligitimise the whole process, but thanks for playing.
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Oct 2, 2013 12:22
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Riso posted:Trumped up charges deligitimise the whole process, but thanks for playing. Although I am not clear on all of these charges, most of these charges seem quite plausible for a violent criminal organization. If the Golden Dawn is really deeply connected to organized crime, I would not be surprised if most of these charges are true. Which of them do you think are trumped up?
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Oct 2, 2013 12:30
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What, you don't think it is suspicious they threw every charge at them they could think of?
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Oct 2, 2013 12:38
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Riso posted:What, you don't think it is suspicious they threw every charge at them they could think of? No. That's how you break up rackets.
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Oct 2, 2013 14:20
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Some jackass from Golden Dawn probably took a sledgehammer to a boat he thought belonged to an immigrant.
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Oct 2, 2013 15:14
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I think its more likely a violent anti immigrant/foreigner (Nazi!) organisation did almost all of those things, than next to none of those things. But thanks for playing too. ps Is there any good articles in English on these charges that anyone has read?
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Oct 2, 2013 17:03
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Organised crime in other countries (like the Mafia) are known to offer disposal services through front companies for hazardous waste (such as from power stations) where they simply dump the cargo or scuttle the ship off foreign coasts rather than actually go through the process of storing or recycling it according to legal guidelines. The shipwrecking charge could be related to that. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8257912.stm
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Oct 2, 2013 20:53
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Pretty sure it is, especially in far right circles. (Who will obviously remind everyone else occasionally.) At least it seems to have quite a lot of traction on the far right side of the internet, and it's not like it was that long ago in terms of national myths. I think the implication is that Greeks are working in Austria and sending money back home. Like some Central American laborers in the US.
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Oct 3, 2013 01:38
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ashgromnies posted:I think the implication is that Greeks are working in Austria and sending money back home. Like some Central American laborers in the US. Ah yes, that well known visual shorthand for working: lying in a hammock. I don't know what they could have done to say "Greeks are lazy scroungers stealing our money" without printing those exact words.
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Oct 3, 2013 10:21
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Jedit posted:Ah yes, that well known visual shorthand for working: lying in a hammock.
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Oct 3, 2013 10:42
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How does not everyone immediately understand this very obvious message? Never heard of the disgusting Bild-Zeitung term "Pleite-Griechen"?
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Oct 3, 2013 11:24
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Yeah, the "Greeks working in Austria" interpretation bears little resemblance to any narrative about the Greeks I've ever heard. Where the hell are you getting that idea from, ashgromnies? Because the overriding narrative I've seen is Greece, as a nation, being inherently lazy, living large on borrowed wealth, then mooching off hardworking Central/Northern Europeans when it was time to pay the piper. Which fits perfectly with an image of an extremely tan Greek lying in a hammock while Euros fall on him from above. I saw the guy laying in the Greek hammock as one of the Greeks in Greece(hence the flag), collecting Euros sent back from Austria. I got the idea because there are Greek immigrant laborers in Austria and nationalists tend to make the same sorts of arguments regardless of where they're from or whom they're arguing against. Edit: I also got the idea because Google is a filthy liar and I have a poor attention to detail. I searched "Greek laborers in Austria" and it showed me articles about Australia. Stop trying to outsmart me, Google 
ashgromnies fucked around with this message at 13:41 on Oct 3, 2013 |
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Oct 3, 2013 13:39
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I don't think the far-right ever used the "immigrants sending money home" narrative here in Austria. Usually it's "non-christian brown people taking our jobs away, and mooching off the welfare state". The same program similar parties propagate all over Europe.
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Oct 3, 2013 14:25
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Allow me to summarize the message that they're trying to convey:
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Oct 3, 2013 14:39
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midnightclimax posted:I don't think the far-right ever used the "immigrants sending money home" narrative here in Austria. Usually it's "non-christian brown people taking our jobs away, and mooching off the welfare state". The same program similar parties propagate all over Europe. I really had it with people calling the FPO "far right" when their political demands and aims are basically indistinguishable from the "left" SPO. The former is now even the party of the workers, while the latter has been reduced to a party representing retirees. (Conservatives have farmers and government employees, Greens the urban middle class) The SPO and Greens like to denounce the FPO and claim they hate all foreigners, but then the unions are the first to rant against cheap foreign labour depressing wages, and a socialist party secretary was also the first to say "the ship is full". Reducing the definition of "far right" to "doesn't like foreigners" is simply not good enough.
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Oct 3, 2013 15:04
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Riso posted:I really had it with people calling the FPO "far right" when their political demands and aims are basically indistinguishable from the "left" SPO. The former is now even the party of the workers, while the latter has been reduced to a party representing retirees. (Conservatives have farmers and government employees, Greens the urban middle class) You said this, though: Riso posted:Too bad Greek's established parties are even more corrupt and nobody's removing them. You're a fascist sympathizer.
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Oct 3, 2013 15:33
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nm
QUILT_MONSTER_420 fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Nov 28, 2013 |
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Oct 3, 2013 15:41
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Riso posted:I really had it with people calling the FPO "far right" when their political demands and aims are basically indistinguishable from the "left" SPO. The former is now even the party of the workers, while the latter has been reduced to a party representing retirees. (Conservatives have farmers and government employees, Greens the urban middle class) It's also interesting to note that the SPÖ helped the FPÖ-precursor to establish itself in austrian politics (their propaganda-posters and leaflets were printed in SPÖ-printshops, amongst other things), hoping this would siphon off voters from the ÖVP. There was also the SPÖ-FPÖ coalition under Kreisky in the early 80s (to be fair the FPÖ had something like 5%). But yeah, there are more similarities than just the same pool of voters. Re "far right": I'd argue that the left/right-terminology has become insufficient nowadays to describe a party. For example the NEOS: economically and socially liberal, they took a good chunk of voters from both the Greens and the conservatives. But are they left/right? Progressives? I'd be interested in a survey of NEOS-voters, asking them if they think of themselves as part of the left or the right camp.
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Oct 3, 2013 15:41
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QUILT_MONSTER_420 fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Nov 28, 2013 |
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Oct 3, 2013 16:18
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ashgromnies posted:I saw the guy laying in the Greek hammock as one of the Greeks in Greece(hence the flag), collecting Euros sent back from Austria. *The Greeks probably did in the pre-crisis years, but I doubt the balance is positive now. In short, it went something like this: Greek politicians lend a lot of cheap Euros from (primarily) French and German banks, then don't exactly spend them in the most sensible fashion. An obvious issue here is them buying a poo poo ton of military equipment, putting their spending as a percentage of GDP at about double of the rest of the Eurozone. Which is basically throwing 1.5-2% (or even 2-2.5% if you compare them to other small countries) of their GDP out the window, and into the hands of American, French and German arms manufacturers. While the former is the bigger slice, at 42%, Germany and France account for 25.3% and 12.8% respectively during the 2002 to 2011 period, which isn't inconsequential to say the least. Then when people realize the Greeks can't pay it off, the banks convince the politicians from the rich countries to loan the Greeks money so they can pay off their debt to those banks, while at the same time having those same politicians pressure the Greeks into cutting social spending in a country that's already circling the drain. Which leaves us in a situation where the average Greek is paying severely for being lied to by their own government, while people from other Euro countries are paying so banks don't have to suffer losses they made while gambling. Oh yeah, and the people from the stronger Euro countries are being told the money is being gifted to the Greeks, while the Greek government pretends like they never bore any responsibility for anything and it's simply the rest of Europe that wants the Greeks to suffer. You could hardly create a better environment for breeding xenophobia even if you tried.
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Oct 3, 2013 17:12
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...flood? The Golden Dawn is being charged with a natural disaster? What?
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Oct 4, 2013 18:59
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Doomtalker posted:...flood? The Golden Dawn is being charged with a natural disaster? Google translate.
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Oct 4, 2013 19:05
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Riso posted:Happened before. They formed a government with conservatives, Austria was ruled well*, and the world didn't end. If by "well" you mean that a large part of the FPÖ (and some of the ÖVP)-half of the government and their friends was convicted for corruption (and some other stuff), sure, it was really done well*. So well they lost the following election (the one Schüssel was so sure he would win by simply putting his face onto every surface of the country) and the ÖVP never became strongest party again, the BZÖ died with Haider, and the FPÖ did so badly for the following elections they still try everything to make people forget that they ever were in the government in the first place. Decius fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Oct 6, 2013 |
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Oct 6, 2013 18:08
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For corruption I have to refer to SPO and OVP cancelling a parliamentary inquiry because it might reveal theirs. It's politics, they're all dirty as gently caress and we can't get rid of them.
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Oct 6, 2013 18:22
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Riso posted:For corruption I have to refer to SPO and OVP cancelling a parliamentary inquiry because it might reveal theirs. Maybe you'd prefer a political system with no parties? 
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Oct 7, 2013 00:37
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With parties like the FPO shouldn't you make a distinction between fascism and post-fascism? The FPO seems to embrace similar but not-outright-fascist concepts like national conservatism. But there's no armed vanguard or party militia, the party is populist but not revolutionary like the Golden Dawn. Could you say, if the FPO became Austria's governing party, that it would voluntarily relinquish power once it loses an election? You certainly can't say that about the Golden Dawn. Am I being unreasonable? Is their racism more extreme than the Republican Party in the U.S.?QUILT_MONSTER_420 posted:I always thought the FPÖ's panicked racism was hilarious as well as reprehensible, because it ompletely misjudges the threat. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 01:41 on Oct 7, 2013 |
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Oct 7, 2013 00:43
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Don't people actually like American culture? Can't win elections on that I'm afraid.
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Oct 7, 2013 09:11
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Mans posted:Maybe you'd prefer a political system with no parties? I'd prefer a system where politicians have to be directly elected by their constituents, and not simply by party lists. Some direct democracy from Switzerland to allow citizen to force politicians to act on a certain topic would also be a very welcome change. Ironically, the much maligned FPO campaigns for the latter, while the other parties reject it because they fear it will threaten their power. If you really want to a genuine fascist party (outside Greece), I point you towards Jobbik in Hungary. quote:Its not gen. 1/.5 immigrants or loving, I dunno, bilingual street signs in Kärnten that present a mortal threat to Austrian culture and Austrian language OVP-FPO had an agreement on those loving signs in what, 2001? The only reason it wasn't put into affect was the SPO sabotaged the deal because they didn't want to grant them the success. Riso fucked around with this message at 09:50 on Oct 7, 2013 |
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Oct 7, 2013 09:47
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Riso posted:I'd prefer a system where politicians have to be directly elected by their constituents, and not simply by party lists. Some direct democracy from Switzerland to allow citizen to force politicians to act on a certain topic would also be a very welcome change. While I agree that direct democracy Switzerland-style would be a good thing (despite whatever problems it might have), I am somewhat sceptical that the FPO campaigns for it out of some noble idealism and not because they think they can get things they want done with it. It's very easy to champion democracy when its winds shift to your favour.
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Oct 7, 2013 09:59
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Riso posted:I'd prefer a system where politicians have to be directly elected by their constituents, and not simply by party lists. Some direct democracy from Switzerland to allow citizen to force politicians to act on a certain topic would also be a very welcome change. You are looking at the USA and think: "Yes, directly elected politicians are a good idea."?  Welcome, gerrymandered districts in which the most right wing people are assured election in their districts, and in which it is basically a race to see who can outflank their opponents ON THE RIGHT! Or look to Britain, where Labour got 35% of the vote in 2005, but because it is first past the post they got 355 of 646 seats in the House of Commons. Does that look like democracy? Direct democracy in the vein of Switzerland is probably a good idea for most nations, but I cannot think of any system in which proportional representation and party elections is not superior to directly elected politicians. The example of the USA should really show everybody what a lovely system it is.
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Oct 7, 2013 10:20
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Omi-Polari posted:Could you say, if the FPO became Austria's governing party, that it would voluntarily relinquish power once it loses an election? If FPO became the senior party in government and especially if they got a majority they would almost certainly follow in Fidesz's footsteps in Hungary and subvert all machinery of state to serve themselves while leaving the country nominally a democracy. Torrannor posted:You are looking at the USA and think: "Yes, directly elected politicians are a good idea."? ReV VAdAUL fucked around with this message at 10:33 on Oct 7, 2013 |
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Oct 7, 2013 10:31
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Gerrymandering is not limited to direct election systems and can be solved by not giving the politicians the power to redraw the voting districts at will. Australia has a non-partisan commission and they have no real issues. I am also sure you can use a direct election system that is not FPP. quote:Given the views Riso has expressed in this thread I think that would be regarded as a feature not a bug. After thirty years of grand-coalitions that are too afraid to do anything, going back to a majority based system would do some good. quote:If FPO became the senior party in government and especially if they got a majority they would almost certainly follow in Fidesz's footsteps in Hungary and subvert all machinery of state to serve themselves while leaving the country nominally a democracy. I wonder how many know that a lot of the things Fidesz does are already common practice in Austria. Constitutional court is not allowed to criticise content of constitutional amendments? Check. (Also France) Media board stacked by party members? Check. Putting incompetent party members into positions they should never have had? Check. I haven't really followed things in Hungary, but really, Austrian politics is a joke. Riso fucked around with this message at 10:50 on Oct 7, 2013 |
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Oct 7, 2013 10:42
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Torrannor posted:You are looking at the USA and think: "Yes, directly elected politicians are a good idea."? This is not a good attack on directly elected politicians because it hinges on the problems America and Britain have, which is that each electoral district only elects a single representative. As such it is criticism on FPTP and single-rep districts than anything else. In Greece for instance each district elects a number of representatives depending on its population. The district I was born in/vote in elects three, the district where I live (for my studies) elects only one, and the second Athens district, the biggest in the country, elects 42. We still have the problem with the 50 extra seats awarded to the first party, but I quite like the multi-rep districts we have and wouldn't want elections to be based on party lists.
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Oct 7, 2013 11:03
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