|
Yeah, that. Couldn't she be weakened by years in the void, too?
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2014 13:26
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 08:52 |
|
|
Drakli posted:Even using their powers on willing subjects, like Benjiro says they do is questionable at best, but it takes them away from the Sith-Illuminati the maniacal George Lucas clone painted them to be.
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2014 20:11
|
|
|
Cestrian posted:I always get annoyed by this whenever they pull the 'everyone magically falls asleep' card in fiction. I remember it happened in one of the x-men movies too. In this game's defence, the game takes place at night in a very heavy winter. There'll be few cars on the streets anyway and ones that are presumably won't be going fast. Presumably ERs might be a bit compromised though. MysticalMachineGun posted:Probably a silly question but if Madeline can rip souls in half, why doesn't she try and do that to herself? Rosa's had quite a few badass moments in this game. From her various feats of strength and flexibility I'm assuming she's dragging Joey to the gym or yoga on occasion 
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2014 20:49
|
|
|
Kegluneq posted:Rosa's had quite a few badass moments in this game. From her various feats of strength and flexibility I'm assuming she's dragging Joey to the gym or yoga on occasion quote:Rosa and Joey arrive at a 24 hour gym.
|
|
#
?
Jul 27, 2014 23:19
|
|
|
Despite how much 'poo poo got real' over the past few updates, it's impossible not to find that gif of Benjiro's ghost scurrying away to Jersey not funny.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2014 01:37
|
|
|
I assume that if Madeline could just rip herself into shreds through her magic, she would. I guess she tried that and found it didn't work, so now she's developed a new plan or two.David Copperfield posted:Despite how much 'poo poo got real' over the past few updates, it's impossible not to find that gif of Benjiro's ghost scurrying away to Jersey not funny. Especially as you just know that, as a New Yorker, haunting Jersey is Gilbert's version of a fate worse than death  Kegluneq posted:Rosa's had quite a few badass moments in this game. From her various feats of strength and flexibility I'm assuming she's dragging Joey to the gym or yoga on occasion Doing all those reps of trampling in the snow must have given Rosa legs like tree trunks! A few more weeks of that and she would have been able to just kick through the wall.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2014 03:05
|
|
|
God dammit Benjiro. I suppose he's kind of got a point, though. Exactly how could he have helped us?
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2014 03:33
|
|
|
cmndstab posted:Doing all those reps of trampling in the snow must have given Rosa legs like tree trunks! A few more weeks of that and she would have been able to just kick through the wall. It makes her so strong she can kick ghosts from sheer strength. She's got a move called "cigarette to the eye" just for Madiline.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2014 03:49
|
|
|
My memory is bad  On the other hand, she apparently went in the past!cmndstab posted:I assume that if Madeline could just rip herself into shreds through her magic, she would. I guess she tried that and found it didn't work, so now she's developed a new plan or two.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2014 08:17
|
|
|
Kegluneq posted:My memory is bad It sounds like her Plan A was to possess a host and then die with the host, and hopefully pass on. But it seems that really the most important thing for her is to just stop existing, period. If her soul is destroyed, so be it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2014 09:31
|
|
|
Joey certainly thought that was her plan. Just blow herself up so that she no longer exists at all. And the rest of Manhattan be damned. The final update is on it's way - keep those F5 buttons firing!!
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2014 13:59
|
|
|
Update 22 And so, after all we've been through, it comes down to this. Madeline is hovering over Grace Church, using the strength gained from devouring the spirits of all six members of the Grace Group to siphon energy through the void and into her own being. When she draws enough energy in, it will explode, destroying not only her spirit, but also that of every person in Manhattan. Rosa and Joey are the only ones who have even the remotest chance of stopping her. How will they go? Let's find out!  Having pelted all the way from Bellevue, Rosa arrives red-faced with Joey in tow. There is no music here, just the soft howl of swirling wind.  *huff huff* You okay? Thirty blocks... never ran... so fast...COnsidering she was almost certainly sedated before all of this, Rosa's doing pretty well to run thirty blocks without stopping! I guess all that snow trampling has paid off in terms of cardio She's up there.As Rosa wonders what Madeline is doing, the light in her eyes comes on again.  How do we stop her? I... I don't know.Uh oh. That's the first time omni-Rosa hasn't known the anwer to a question. The light fades from her eyes.  Nothing like this has ever happened before. Not even the universe knows what to do. Well. I guess we'll do what we always do, sweetheart. Improvise.That's the spirit! They look at one another. He looks ready to finish this. So am I. She looks a bit... unsteady. Hopefully it's just the hospital drugs wearing off. Rosa remarks on how everything is quiet. I assume that's because there are no people walking around, no automobiles moving. Everything's still other than the gentle fall of snowflakes. Just the calm before the storm. Let's end this before it gets here.Also pictured: I did my best to force Joey to lose his temper by having Rosa make footprints at this crucial juncture, but he didn't seem to notice Whatever we need to do, we're not going to accomplish it on the street. We didn't start this, but we sure as hell are gonna end it. Let's get to Madeline before it's too late. They enter Grace school to find Michael's corpse still lying around. Nobody can get near this building without being affected by the void energy. Nobody except us. Ow. God drat it. That hurts.Seriously, Rosa needs to develop some way of choosing when to turn that power on. We didn't need to know that, and it's clearly not good for her  She looks at the floor. It's the circle of protection that Madeline created for Michael. Madeline activated it by using a part of her essence.Figuring she should take advantage of whatever she can, she searches through Michael's pockets.  I'm sorry, Michael. He's got a piece of chalk in his pocket. It looks like he used it to draw the circle.We'll pocket that. Maybe we can do something with a circle ourselves, though I have no idea what.  Steeling their nerves to go upstairs and face Madeline, Joey starts to get angry again. Desperate enough to destroy a city by the sheer force of will? I hope I never have to find out. Come on. We don't have much time. Danger  They emerge on the roof of Grace Church, as the shimmering vortex drives energy into Madeline's now-flickering ghostly form. At the sound of Joey's voice, she turns to face them in anger.  You? How on EARTH did your mind survive? Your head must be absolutely splitting. It's over, Madeline. Indeed. I have wanted it to be over for a long, long time.She turns back away from them, focusing on the task at hand.  Joey and Rosa quickly look around as they consider their options. The entire city is asleep. If we're going to do something, it has to be now. There's no place to run. We have to finish this. One way or the other. She's being pulled apart. We don't have a lot of time. She's being ripped apart. God, how does she stand it?They then confer with one another.  No. She's trying to force herself apart. We got here just in time. Normally I'd say good riddance. But I guess we gotta stop her. Rosa is the first to act. She can't interact physically with Madeline, but she can try talking to her. What? Please Madeline. You tried. You failed. Just stop before any more damage is done! Failed? No. I admit my original plan did not proceed as I'd hoped. This is just a viable alternative.Rosa tries to talk her out of it. This is NOT the only alternative. We will help you find another way! Can you really? The universe is pouring into your head. Your head is splitting from the pressure of it. Madeline asks a very pertinent question... ......and Rosa comes up short. This could mean several things - it might mean that it's impossible. Perhaps it is possible, but nobody else in the Universe has ever figured out how? Or, perhaps the method is known, but as Rosa has only had a small fraction of the Universe fill her head, she just hasn't learned it yet. Unfortunately, this whole "Universe in the head" thing is not clearly defined. What can be said for certain, however, is that neither Rosa nor Madeline know of any other alternative to ending Madeline's existence. Instead, Rosa tries to appeal to Madeline's conscience. You've spent hundreds of years helping out souls like them. You're really going to throw that all away? You say that like they matter. Since humanity crawled out of the ocean, they began to deny death. Denied it so much that the post of Bestower was created. In all that time, humanity has learned NOTHING. Helping their pathetic souls all this time has achieved NOTHING. So you'll destroy them all? It is a means to an end. Nothing more.Unfortunately, it looks like she's way past worrying about her conscience.  With her pleas falling on deaf ears, Rosa lets out her own frustrations instead. It was nothing personal. You don't understand, do you? We could have supported each other. We could have been NORMAL. You took that from us. From me.That's really sad  Of course, it falls on deaf ears. And yet... here you are. Don't tell me you are worse off. You survived. You thrived, even. Not for much longer, if you keep this up! As I said, this is nothing personal. Suddenly, Rosa thinks of another alternative.  What? I mean it. If it means all this stops.. do it.That's a pretty gutsy choice to make. Unfortunately, Madeline is not able to take her up on it. I have expended too much energy. Your mind would overpower me and reject me. Like all the others. But... the offer is appreciated.Finally, Rosa just starts to threaten Madeline. We're going to stop you, Madeline. And what makes you think THAT? We've stopped others before you. We can do it again. Others before me? Like who? Rosa starts to go over the cast list of supernatural baddies she's defeated. That mad, incorrigible soul? A man so insane with fear that he created the devil out of thin air? There are so many spirits like him. Spirits so scared and so desperate that they will do anything to escape. Your Deacon would have welcomed the oblivion that I am bringing.You know, she's probably right It is nice to finally get confirmation that the Devil appearing at the end of Legacy was just a projection of The Deacon's own fears rather than an actual devil, though. Next up, Rosa mentions The Countess. The Countess. My aunt killed her. I finished her off. You forget - she was my host, once. Whatever happened to her, it was her own undoing. I am through with being at the service of hosts like her. Of ANYONE like her. And this is how you're doing it? There is no other way! Finally, Rosa brings up Gavin. Gavin. Yes. I sensed it when you killed him. That was an accident. Be that as it may. His soul was weak after he tried to feed on you. It didn't take long to overpower him. So... thank you for delivering him to me.Jesus Christ, really? Madeline was the one who devoured Gavin's soul at the end of Deception? I suppose it was right after Joey released her from the void. I guess she stuck around long enough to sense his death, somehow travelled to Rosa's nodespace and had a bit of a snack. Danger  With Rosa having run out of things to say, Joey jumps in. What? You gotta stop this! You're gonna fry every soul in this city! I wish I could say that I feel remorse. But I am so old. I am so tired. I cannot muster the energy to even pretend to care any longer.Being somewhat less tactful than Rosa, Joey skips over the bargaining stage and heads straight to the insults. Get this through your thick head - this is where it ends. Oh, you have no idea. I said it before, Maddy, but you're insane. I just want what every creature has - the ability to DIE. Can't you understand? But the universe has denied it to me. So I am turning to the only recourse available. Or the desert. Or the moon! Anywhere but here!Joey comes up with a good question, but we already know the answer. She can't leave. I am bound to this area, thanks to you. And the soul energy I absorbed will only last for a limited time. I... have no choice. You always have a choice! I have sought another way for centuries! I am sure you have asked this same question yourself, Mallone. When will this end? Well, I have the answer: it doesn't.As was the case even before Madeline betrayed us, Joey seems to have the ability to get under Madeline's skin  You would do the same in my position. We're nothing alike, Maddy. Don't even pretend to think we are. You think you're so noble, little ghost? Wait two or three centuries. Two or three millennia. THEN tell me you wouldn't do the same, just to end it all.Already sick of talking, Joey decides to take matters into his own hands. Unlike Rosa, Joey should be able to physically interact with Madeline.  However, when he tries to give her a shove (or possibly a nipple twister?), he ends up going straight through her. It has started. My spiritual form is becoming intangible. Even to you. It won't be long now.That's not good. If we can't interact with her, there's nothing we can do. In desperation, Joey tries using everything in his arsenal. His breath: I really don't think blowing on her's going to help here!And his tie: It won't work. I can't touch her!Joey also still has Madeline's totem, but that doesn't work either.  Er. Yeah? Such an action speaks of desperation. It will not be long before you will not need to worry about such things. Heading downstairs, Rosa and Joey discuss their options. So punching her senseless is out. What else have you got? Um, a piece of chalk? ... Glad to see the universe pouring into your head hasn't dulled your wits any.As much as this seems like fun banter, it's actually a clue. Joey provides us with another one, in case we missed it. We spent an entire night zapping spooks across the city. Do you think we can do the same to her? When that circle was made, Madeline and Michael were no more powerful than we are. So... maybe?Perhaps we can create a circle just like they did? Then we might be able to teleportMadeline away from the vortex?  Rosa and Joey head out to the street, and Rosa draws a circle with Michael's chalk. Joey floats up to it. Madeline said she "used a bit of her essence" to make it. We learned in Deception that Joey's tie plays the role of his essence - so we use his tie on the circle. "Use a bit of my essence," huh? Well. Here goes. Sure enough, the circle powers up, and Joey's tie because a totem much like Madeline's. If we manage to get through all of this, that'll be a handy trick to remember for future ghosts! If nothing else we can zap them back to our apartment so Rosa doesn't end up sleeping on her feet in the middle of the street every time they help a ghost ot move on.  They head back up, and Joey places the totem in Madeline's hand. Sure enough, it works! She is transported immediately to their magical circle. Hopefully she'll be trapped in there!  Madeline is momentarily disorientated, but quickly realises what has happened.  Oh. How... cute.Using some power that we apparently don't know about, she powers down the circle...  ...and teleports back to the roof.   So you learned a new trick. I'm impressed.That didn't work, although it did prove that Madeline can still be interacted with. Can we do anything cleverer?  Perhaps we can just be repetitive instead? Joey tries again...  ...and Madeline comes back again, albeit somewhat more frustratedly than last time Still, this isn't working. We need to come up with a new plan. Joey has a sudden thought. Look, whatever she's doing... it's happening on the other side. Maybe we should take a look?Much as he did all the way back in Legacy, Joey has Rosa pull on his tie, and they enter the void.  Actually, things look pretty much the same as ever in here. Joey and Rosa look around, but other than the stone platform, there isn't much to see. Once upon a time I wondered what this was. After so many years and so many spooks, it's hard to care anymore. A stone platform. At least, I think it's stone. I'm honestly not sure what this stuff is.Hmm. That gives me an idea.  Rosa tries drawing the chalk circle on the stone platform. If we can send Madeline here, perhaps she'll calm down like ghosts normally do in our nodespace? At the very least, she'll be a long way from the vortex. Perhaps that will be sufficient to interrupt the flow of energy and shut the process down? It sounds like she doesn't have enough power to start it up again. It's worth a try, at least!  Joey uses his tie to power up the circle...  ...and once again teleports Madeline away. This is pretty much our last roll of the dice. Could it possibly work?  Madeline immediately recognises her surroundings, but sadly, her resolve is not affected at all. I guess she's spent so much time in the void that she has no desire to be here any longer. Well. No matter. She powers down the circle and is about to head back through the portal, when it suddenly closes, and a familiar figure materialises in it's place - the ghost of Lauren. I guess she never did end up heading all the way through the light? You. You remember me. I guess I should be flattered. Open the portal. Let me through. You've gotta be kidding.A slight touch of desperation starts to creep into Madeline's oh-so-proper tones. The energy is almost at critical mass. It is going to detonate whether I am there or not. Oh. "Oh?" That's all you can say? Unfortunately for Madeline, Lauren really doesn't care. We all need something. I thought I needed to move on. But... I really want to see how this ends.By now, Madeline is starting to get extremely frustrated. It's a really nice juxtaposition, suddenly having Madeline become the emotional one while Lauren takes the dispassionate role. It will never end. *I* will never end. That was the whole purpose! It was never about you. Not me, or my niece, or any of us. You see, I get it now. Why things have to be the way they are. I don't like it. But I get it. What are you talking about?! Shhh. Looks like Madeline's plans have been dashed. But it doesn't sound like that's going to be any help for Manhattan (continued next post...)
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2014 15:06
|
|
|
Rosa and Lauren  Back on top of Grace school, Joey looks on at the vortex in resignation. No. It's not going to stop. No.Joey turns to Rosa sadly. This is it. Isn't it? ... No.Wait... no?  A wave of energy washes over Rosa. No, it isn't.The light comes back on in her eyes. Has she finally worked out a solution from the knowledge gained from the Universe flowing into her head? So many dead, Joey. So many. I know. It's never enough. I know. But we do the best we can. We always have. Yes. We always have. Using the knowledge flowing freely into her head, Rosa enacts some kind of power, and hundreds of balls of energy start to flow through her, and up towards the vortex. Are those...? Are those spooks? Yes. Everyone who is lost. Everyone who is waiting. Waiting for someone like us. No more. They don't have to wait any more. You're saving spooks? It's what we do.There's that line again But... how? I am reversing it. Making it pull IN spiritual energy instead of pushing it out. You can do that? ... I can now.I suppose if Madeline was able to make energy flow one way, it should be possible to go the other way as well. But will it work?  In the void, Lauren and Madeline watch in awe as countless spirits flow on to the next plane of existence. You see? It's not about you. Or me. It's about... everyone. Not immune to the effects, Lauren and Madeline soon follow as well. At long last, they both move on to the next plane of existence - honestly, it's better than Madeline deserves, but to be fair to her, she has been waiting for a very long time. Lauren's final line is kind of corny, but I think what she's trying to say is that she understands why a few Bestowers and spirit guides have to be put through such an ordeal as they have. It's so that so many spirits can be given the peace they deserve - the kind of peace that Lauren has been enjoying for the last three decades. Joey's Passage  Back in reality, Rosa beckons for Joey to join the procession of spirits. Go on? It's time. Move on. You can do it now. Whatever stopped you from moving on before... I'm stronger.Oh, wow I'm sure Joey has thought about moving on for a long time, but it's so sudden. He hesitantly floats towards the vortex. However, he doesn't turn into a ball of energy like the other spirits. After a short while, he shakily speaks up.  It's not working. ...what? I said it's not working. It won't let me go.Rosa is surprised, even with the knowledge of the Universe in her head. She is quiet for a second, then calls out again. Try it now! I'm sorry, sweetheart. But I'm still stuck. Not even the power of the universe inside your head can help me move on.Joey sounds absolutely defeated here. He slowly returns to Rosa's side.  The last of the spirits flow through Rosa and on their way. As they do, the vortex dims, and eventually disappears altogether. At the same time, the light in Rosa's eyes dim out.  I'm sorry, Joey. Forget it.Joey chokes this line out, but quickly regains his composure. So. You think everyone down there's back to normal? Yes. Everyone will wake up. They won't even know they were asleep. It will be like it never happened. Yeah. We should get outta here.You know, it's easy to pull the whole "they'll wake up and never know they were sleeping" thing, but surely some people were driving cars or climbing ladders or something when this all started, right? I guess we'll just handwave that for the sake of reaching a conclusion here. As they climb down the stairs, Joey quietly asks Rosa a question. So how many spooks did you manage to save, anyway? ... All of them. All of them?Rosa looks sadly at Joey before answering. Yes.All of them... but Joey.  As they walk outside, Joey continues to slowly ask questions. No. All ghosts. Everywhere. ... Except for me. Except for you. That's... I know.It's hard to know how to feel about this. On one hand, it's fantastic that there are no ghosts waiting around lost and confused anymore - but on the other hand, Joey's entire reason for existing as a guide has just been taken away from him.  As they round the corner, Joey tries to process this information. Eventually. Right. So when that happens, it will be business as usual. I guess.I suppose he's right! But in the meantime... we're free. Free. Yeah.Huh. That's right. We know now that stopping saving ghosts doesn't lead to insanity after all, and there are no ghosts that need saving at this moment. We can do whatever we like now!  God, I haven't seen a movie in forever. You and me both.With the adrenaline of the Madeline encounter finally dying down, Joey starts to realise the possibilities now in front of them. Think of all the things we can do now. Maybe I'll sleep in. Or maybe a vacation. Yeah. Somewhere sunny. Deception Lament  However, just as things seem to be looking up, Rosa collapses to her knees. I'm sorry, Joey. I thought you'd be gone. I really hoped you would be gone. I didn't want you to see this. Red?Oh, no It hurts, Joey. It's everything. It's pouring into my head. It's not a metaphor. And it's not stopping. I... can't hold it. You gotta try. No. It's like trying to swallow the ocean. Sooner or later, you're going to drown.After all of this  You can't just... What? Die? I don't think... I have a choice.Joey is aghast. No! This isn't fair. This isn't RIGHT. You just saved the whole drat city! You saved ME. I knew the cost. I paid it. It was worth it. Wasn't it? ... Sure. Of course it was.After being so pained earlier, Rosa seems calm now. I... I see them. Rosa seems accepting of her fate, but Joey isn't ready to lose her just yet No! Stay away from them! It's not time yet! Joey. Please. ...Realising that he's trying to hold back the inevitable at the expense of Rosa's dignity, Joey finally gives in. Okay. But before you... go. I'll make you one promise. No matter how long I'm around. No matter how many hosts I see die. Joey leaves Rosa with a heartfelt promise in her final moments. I'll be a good spirit guide. Do what needs to be done. Forever, if need be. ...Rosa lifts her head to look at him as the music dies away. No Joey. You won't. Using another of the powers gained from having the Universe flow into her head, Rosa glows a bright white, and a bolt of energy zaps through Joey, sending him flying backwards. A crackling sound is heard as the earth itself opens up beneath him, and his body is reformed. He falls flat on his face, his signature hat topppling away from his body, but nonetheless - Joey is alive again.  Ugh. A Rose Falls  He pushes himself up groggily. What did you... how?He looks at his body in awe, before realising that Rosa isn't responding. Red? Sweetheart? For probably the first time since Legacy, he actually calls Rosa by her name Sadly, she doesn't respond. At the age of 34, Rosangela Blackwell is dead She has sacrificed what remained of her life energy to restore Joey. Why the hell did you do this? Blinking back tears, Joey walks up to Rosa, and takes off his tie, trying to hand it Rosa It's the only way he's ever physically interacted with Rosa before, and now he never will again The ending of this scene is extremely symbolic. Joey's hat and tie are his two most recognisable symbols. With them taken off, you barely even recognise him. Joey on the Bridge  Several days later, Joey is atop the Brooklyn Bridge. It seems the snowstorm has finally passed. I've tried, you know. I've looked. There was this pileup on the westside highway last week, and now people say they hear crying. So I went over there. I didn't hear or see anything. I'm... normal. Joey stands with Rosa's ashes in an urn, ready to scatter them in the East River, just as Rosa did for her aunt four years earlier at the start of Legacy. We've come full circle. Yeah, I know. Ironic, huh? Or, at least, I think that's irony. You could tell me, if you were here.After years of speaking to Rosa on a daily basis, Joey seems to still be in the habit.  About being... you know. I can't even say it. It's almost as if - now that I'm alive - I can't think about being dead. I guess that's hard-wired into everybody. Turns out I'm just like everyone else, in the end. Is that what I'm supposed to get from all this? That life is worth living? I guess I've gotta get out there and find out for myself.Almost a century after dying, Joey finally appreciates the blessing of life.  Joey pours the ashes over the railing and says his final farewell. Goodbye. Rosa Blackwell. I don't know how long I've got, but I know I'll see you again. Someday. But until then... I'll try to make this count. Okay? End Theme  With nothing left to say, Joey begins to walk back home as Rosa's ashes blow away in the wind.  And with that, the Blackwell saga comes to an emotional close. That was one hell of an emotional rollercoaster. I'll try now to summarise my thoughts on how the series ended. First and foremost, I thought it was a fitting ending - I liked it. Although the "Manhattan is going to be levelled" thing probably went too far (I would have preferred it if it was just going to destroy every spirit, and perhaps Bestower, in Manhattan), I understand the need to raise the stakes for the final game. Rosa gaining wacky powers from the Universe flooding into her head was a non-sequitur for the game as well, considering I discussed earlier how reluctant Gilbert was to give Joey new powers. Clearly there are plenty of supernatural powers in the Blackwell Universe, and Joey just didn't know about them. Rosa adopting them in the finish felt a little contrived, but there probably wasn't any better way to reach a final conclusion. I'm always more willing to forgive a deus ex machina when it occurs in the final scene. And the concept of the Universe literally flowing into a Bestower's head has been built up over all five games, so at least it didn't come out of nowhere. However, the real story is Joey and Rosa switching positions - with Joey returning to life, and Rosa now dead, although she presumably moves on to the next plane of existence. It's as bittersweet as can possibly be. Joey getting a second chance at life is amazing, and an outcome I honestly never considered before finishing Epiphany. Rosa having a sad end, on the other hand, was very much a possibility I had considered. It's still better than a Lovecraftian "crazy for the next 50 years" ending, but it's still very sad. It seems strange to say it about a video game character, but I honestly feel like I'll miss her - and I know Joey will. I'm glad that her death ended up being her own choice - she made the ultimate sacrifice and gave up what remained of her life energy because she knew that the future held nothing for her anymore. If Rosa has to end the series dead, I think that's the best way to do it. According to Gilbert, this was always his plan, right down to Joey tearfully offering Rosa his tie in the final scene. I really loved Epiphany. Perhaps it's the novelty factor of being a new game - I didn't start playing the Blackwell games until the 4th had already been released, so Epiphany was the only one I actually waited for - but I think it's my favourite in the series. It does all of the things the previous games did right, and avoids most of the pitfalls. It feels like a fitting end, and the series feels like it's reached a natural conclusion. There's no question of whether Joey will haunt someone else in the future, or what else is to come. The story is now over. Joey will live his life without being involved with any ghosts. Presumably the other Bestowers around the world will all wonder what the hell happened to the spirits. I have no idea whether they've all suddenly lost their spirit guides or not, but I assume so. They'll get new ones soon enough. But that has nothing to do with us. For Rosa and Joey - and Lauren - the story has reached it's end. And beautifully, considering Rosa really embraced ghostsaving by the end, she went out by saving every ghost - even Joey. She fulfilled her adopted duty to perfection. In that sense, it's as fitting an end as can be. I still intend to discuss several things in tonight's Word of God update, but in terms of the LP iself, we're finished. I said this at the end of Deception, but I want to thank those of you who contributed so regularly to this thread. It really made it a joy to keep updated each day. For those of you who haven't yet bought Epiphany, I strongly encourage you to do so. I've done my best to do it justice in this thread, but it really deserves to be experienced in its intended format. And finally, I need to give one final thank you to Dave Gilbert for putting up with me hounding him for weeks on end with interview questions, requests for portraits, conspiracy theories and everything else under the sun. He never once made me feel like I was being an imposition and really demonstrated how much love he has for his creation. You did good, Dave! You did real good Finally, I will link to the song Fade now. Fade Fade plays over the credits of Epiphany once End Theme finishes - feel free to listen to it as you read the final Word of God update. Although I wasn't so hot on it to begin with (it's hard to top "Solitude Begins" from the credits of Unbound), it has grown on me. The song is very clearly about Rosa's final moments, and the lyrics are as follows: The depths, the depths I can't climb from I'm sinking down I'm sick, I'm sick and can't get well I close my eyes and sleep, mmm Every voice in the world screams in my head They all need to be heard but I'm going deaf It's all too much to bear Till it all starts to fade I'll seek I'll seek peace and comfort It's all I can do, ahh Every voice in the world screams in my head They all need to be heard but I'm going deaf But all they yearn to seek is rest eternally, ahh My mind My mind is at rest now I close my eyes and sleep Ahh  So, we've got a lot to talk about! Let me start with something relatively unimportant, but interesting anyway. Madeline told us that she was the one that devoured Gavin's soul. However, when we took Gavin to the void, he was very concerned about something. It wouldn't make sense for it to be Madeline. What was he actually worried about? Members of Gavin's cult were forbidden from moving on to the next plane of existence One of the deals with Gavin's cult was that they were apparently not allowed to go through the light. Although Gilbert never made clear what the punishment would be (and likely never bothered to figure it out for himself), the message is clear - if you're a member of that cult and you die, you don't get to move on. You haunt the world forever. The fact that Madeline had just been brought out from the void at the time Gavin died was a coincidence, but it's not clear whether it was a fortunate one or not for Gavin. Just being erased from existence might very well be a much better outcome than what lay in store for him if Madeline hadn't been there. On the other hand, Gilbert described it to me as "just additional bad luck" for Gavin, so perhaps it's not a great outcome for him after all. I guess if he had stuck around, he would have been moved on to the next plane of existence when Rosa did her spook saving magic act. While we're talking about Gavin's cult, I tried pushing Gilbert for more details about them. Obviously, the game in which Rosa was going to pursue them was cut, but Gilbert must have had plans for them. Was it going to be a large group, or just a handful of people. Were most of them predatory like Gavin was, or not? On this question, Gilbert was unusually coy. He responded: "I prefer to plead the fifth on this until I actually write about it again.  " - is that a hint that he intends to revisit their story somewhere down the line? I'll leave that up to your interpretation. Finally, he comments (in relation to Gavin's cult): "All those ghosts (and spiritual energy) leaving at the same time will definitely have SOME side effects." The implication is that the actions at the end of Epiphany have hosed their poo poo up somehow. Can't say I'm too disappointed to hear it!But that's enough about the spiritual vampire cult. I want to talk about Lauren. Her final scene where she showed up and closed the portal confused me slightly, so I asked Gilbert about it.  All Bestowers are capable of closing the portal to their nodespace - and Lauren could close Rosa's because they're related According to Gilbert, the familial links between Rosa and Lauren do more than just ensuring they share the same spirit guide. Lauren has control over Rosa's nodespace just as she would her own. Although I didn't clarify it with Gilbert, to me that explains the scene in Convergence, where The Countess was able to access Rosa's link. She's distantly related to Rosa, unlike all of the other people she killed. In Rosa's case, she was able to actually go to the void like her instincts would have told her to do. It's a neat explanation. Finally, I want to talk about Joey. For me, if I could change one thing about Epiphany, it would be adding an extra epilogue scene - from after Joey's eventual death, where we would see him finally guided on his way to the next plane of existence by a new generation of Bestowers and guides. I asked Gilbert what his thoughts on Joey's eventual passing were. Joey will pass on naturally when he eventually dies Gilbert states simply: "I always envisioned Joey as passing on very naturally when his time comes." Presumably he'll have a fairly long life, and when he does eventually die, his spirit will be well and truly ready to move on to the next world unassisted - and hopefully share it with the Blackwell crew And until then? I guess he'll spend his time getting used to technology, and living his life. Hopefully he'll fulfill Rosa's prediction of him tweeting Maybe he'll return to dry cleaning to earn a living, or maybe he'll just visit soup kitchens for the rest of his life. Maybe he'll even sit down and finish writing Rosa's books about their adventures together.Whatever he ends up doing - thanks for the memories, Joey and Rosa. I'll miss you both.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2014 15:06
|
|
|
I really like how the series bookended itself starting with Rosa pouring the ashes out in the first game, and now this. E: I personally thing Joey was full of it when he said he couldn't move on, he flat out didn't want to leave Rosa. 
Sardonik fucked around with this message at 15:58 on Jul 28, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2014 15:29
|
|
|
Hahaha. Haha. That was heartbreaking.  It's pretty interesting to see Joey alive and without his hat and tie, however.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2014 15:32
|
|
|
How did a presumably homeless man that does not exist in official records get hold of the urn?
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2014 15:47
|
|
|
Hmm. Not too sure what to make of the ending. A lot of "now my nonsensical ghost universe powers let me do THIS". But after so many TV shows that don't have the balls to mess with the status quo much in the ending (Dexter, 24, Burn Notice) I appreciate that the game was willing to switch things up so much, to be unpredictable and final and to kill the protagonist. But on the other hand, it could have done more to make it more impactful. For one thing, other than Joey and Durkin, is there anyone out there to shed a tear for Rosangela? Even since she found her footing socially? Anyway, thanks for the quality LP, cmndstab. It's extra nice to see someone who is so passionately into a game and knows so much about it. Would read any future LPs!
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2014 15:49
|
|
|
Kopijeger posted:How did a presumably homeless man that does not exist in official records get hold of the urn? You could probably just wave it off as Durkin helping. I wasn't all that big on the ending of Epiphany myself, as the vortex didn't really have any buildup beyond "what the christ is that out the window?  " and the climax was a little too deus ex machina-ish for my tastes, but there was at least a legitimately-written reason for the powers she had (you punch metaphysical hole in head, head manages to hold the universe in for a bit and burns out eventually. Makes sense to me  ). It's probably something that would've been helped by having the other three games to build up to it, and I still enjoyed Epiphany overall.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2014 15:55
|
|
|
Now that was one hell of an LP. Thanks for bringing it to a fitting end, cmndstab. As for the game itself, there are some things I disliked (the walking animation  and the ending felt a bit forced in an "I have to raise the stakes even higher somehow" way, but it was still great overall and managed a fitting end. I hope we'll see some cameos or secondary plot threads from the Bestower setting in Gilbert's future game, but at the same time I'm happy it's over. So many series overstay their welcome.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2014 15:58
|
|
|
Hi everyone! Game developer here. Or Dave. Or "God." Whatever. I just had to pop in and say thank you. Mostly to Michael for doing all this (and for going into such detail. Seriously. I can't imagine transcribing all my gibber was fun) and also to everyone who contributed to the discussion. It was an absolute joy to read. Anyhow, I didn't want to butt in during the LP itself, but now that it's over I've given myself license to post! So if you have any questions or comments or anything, feel free to post them here! I'll do my best to answer. -Dave DaveGilbert fucked around with this message at 16:22 on Jul 28, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2014 16:18
|
|
|
Hey! It's nice to meet and talk with you, Dave! To get an obvious question out of the way, did you always plan on Rosangela dying in the end? Also, a popular theory here is that the Deacon's demon was a manifestation of his own fears and not a real literal demon. Would that be accurate? WickedHate fucked around with this message at 16:39 on Jul 28, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2014 16:25
|
|
|
WickedHate posted:Hey! It's nice to meet and talk with you, Dave! Yep. Rosa dying was always my plan. A LOT of things changed throughout the making of the games (plot elements dropped, characters and situations changed, etc) but it was always leading toward that end. If I'm proud of anything, it's having stayed faithful to that original vision. And yeah, he was never supposed to be a literal demon! Sorry if that confused anyone. 
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2014 16:35
|
|
|
DaveGilbert posted:Hi everyone! Game developer here. Or Dave. Or "God." Whatever. Hahaha, Jesus, I didn't realise you were actively reading it I hope I didn't misrepresent you during the Word of God updates at all! Thanks again for not throttling me when I kept pestering you with questions, hahahaha.As one final question, do you have any thoughts about the whole "everyone is unconscious" thing almost certainly meaning thousands of people would have to die? I gather that's just one of those "don't think too hard about it" things that was necessary to get us to the end of the game? Oh, and one final final question (I'm doing it again!) - do you have an explanation as to why Joey couldn't move on in the end? Is it just as simple as him being tied to Rosa, and Rosa being the one doing the energy vortex reverse thingy? VagueRant - socially, I'm sure Nishanthi will be devastated. Moti will probably be fine, though. Cory probably won't mind either, hahaha. Hopefully he pulls up okay from being knocked the gently caress out. Also I most likely won't do another LP for a little while (I always figure I need to find a game worth LPing to keep myself motivated enough to finish it! And I only ever do SSLPs) but I did have a good time over the last few years LPing a couple of old adventure in Normality, and Rex Nebular and the Cosmic Gender Bender. They're in the archives. Although if you only enjoy reading my LPs when I actually like the game's characters, you might want to avoid Normality, hahaha. Personally I got a kick out of mocking the game's protagonist for fifteen updates, but it wasn't as much fun as playing a game I actually really enjoy.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2014 16:40
|
|
|
Aside from the soul vampires, were there any major storylines you had to cut out comepletely? Since Bestowing is apparently something that passes among family members, will any of Rosa's more distant relatives (like other descendants of Patricia's parents) find themselves bestowing now that Rosa is dead? Do you intend to make more games set in the same universe? And a small thing that was raised earlier: Connor Fielding's headstone had a Luther Rose on it. Was it your intent to make the character Lutheran or did you just pick the symbol without realising what it meant?
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2014 16:42
|
|
|
cmndstab posted:As one final question, do you have any thoughts about the whole "everyone is unconscious" thing almost certainly meaning thousands of people would have to die? I gather that's just one of those "don't think too hard about it" things that was necessary to get us to the end of the game? Also, how could Rosa claim that everyone would forget? Aside from any mayhem that would occur, there would probably be surveillance camera tapes that show people suddenly falling unconscious, not to mention that anyone who was in indirect contact with people inside the zone of effect through telephones, radio, and so on would certainly notice that they stopped responding. Kopijeger fucked around with this message at 16:52 on Jul 28, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2014 16:47
|
|
|
inscrutable horse posted:There's also the fact that her sprite doesn't have that ragged bottom that all the other ghosts have. That part always bothered me, and I wonder if that was done intentionally as some sort of foreshadowing of her "eating" the other ghosts. Feel a bit silly quoting myself, but was Madeline having a subtle but fundamentally different sprite intentional?
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2014 16:55
|
|
|
cmndstab posted:Hahaha, Jesus, I didn't realise you were actively reading it Like you said, it took awhile for the effect to take hold, and the blizzard was probably stopping most land and air travel. No cars or buses were on the road (they even remark on that at one point) and there were certainly no planes in the air. I wouldn't think too hard about it. I certainly didn't. If people reacted at all, it the same as when these things happen in other sci-fi universes like Doctor Who and Dresden. The general public just forgets about it and moves on. quote:Oh, and one final final question (I'm doing it again!) - do you have an explanation as to why Joey couldn't move on in the end? Is it just as simple as him being tied to Rosa, and Rosa being the one doing the energy vortex reverse thingy? As simple as that. quote:VagueRant - socially, I'm sure Nishanthi will be devastated. Moti will probably be fine, though. Cory probably won't mind either, hahaha. Hopefully he pulls up okay from being knocked the gently caress out. Nish has a pretty active social circle. Moti and Cory will probably be relieved, considering what Rosa did to both of them.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2014 17:04
|
|
|
Oh, cmndstab, I was meant to say, the title of this tindeck link kinda gives away the plot point of the scene before it's over. It's a small thing, but I thought I'd mention it.WickedHate posted:To get an obvious question out of the way, did you always plan on Rosangela dying in the end? cmndstab posted:Oh, and one final final question (I'm doing it again!) - do you have an explanation as to why Joey couldn't move on in the end? Is it just as simple as him being tied to Rosa, and Rosa being the one doing the energy vortex reverse thingy? EDIT: turns out I just don't know poo poo about ghost physics! VagueRant fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Jul 28, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2014 17:07
|
|
|
VagueRant posted:Weren't both of these things literally answered in this last update? Oh, I totally missed that. drat my eyesight. DaveGilbert posted:Nish has a pretty active social circle. Moti and Cory will probably be relieved, considering what Rosa did to both of them. But what if Cory became a Bestower with Rosangela as his spirit guide? Eh? Eh? Million dollar spin off idea right there.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2014 17:17
|
|
|
No, I'm sorry. To both cmndstab and, uh, Dave Gilbert himself, I want to make clear that I really, really, REALLY like the series and Madeline as a villain was spot-on perfect, and the whole crazy psychic family and Joey are just about my favorite protagonists, and so much of this game was excellent. The assets and the music and the uncertainty and everything. But the ending was: "Joey, not even my omniscience knows what to do!" ... "Oh wait, now it does. Hold on while I fix everything through wizard magic." Part of what I love about this series, and, as it happens, Gemini Rue (and presumably your other stuff, I'm only familiar with this and GR) is in part due to uncertainty. It makes for great villains, intriguing plot twists, and creeping dread, because you're not quite sure what the rules are. And you know what? We still aren't. We've got no idea how Red did ANY of that reversing stuff, or that it was possible at all, and it just kind of feels like "alright, we've got 2 minutes to end this series GO make sure it's poignant!". ... I'll grow on me, I'm sure. The vampires did. This is just raw impressions. But alright, here's a WOG question - presumably after finding her dead, Rosa's apartment is going to get searched. So is she going to go down in New York history as a serial killer? Bacter fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Jul 28, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2014 17:20
|
|
|
DaveGilbert posted:Hi everyone! Game developer here. Or Dave. Or "God." Whatever. I'm curious to know, given that Blackwell was originally going to be eight games long (and not knowing how much of it all you actually had planned in advance); are the events in Epiphany originally all from the eighth game, or are they big cherry-picked ones from the "unmade" 5th to 8th Blackwell games merged into a single game?
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2014 17:22
|
|
|
VagueRant posted:Oh, cmndstab, I was meant to say, the title of this tindeck link kinda gives away the plot point of the scene before it's over. It's a small thing, but I thought I'd mention it. Yeah, I was somewhat aware of this at the time, which is why I kind of pulled a sleight of hand and gave it a different name in the thread itself. I did briefly consider reuploading it with a different name, but given that Joey literally says he can't pass within three lines of dialogue, I figured it wasn't worthwhile. In some sense it was no different than having a track called "The Countess Returns" right before The Countess, well, returns  I was also kind of worried that having a track called "A Rose Falls" in update 20 might give the game away as well, since this series often uses music more than once and we've seen other instances of a track being used before the event it's named after. But if anyone picked it in advance they were at least polite enough to not mention it  Bacter - not only will they find incriminating evidence of all the unsolved cases Rosa's been a part of, they'll even find her computer where she has written (what will appear to be) fictional stories about how she actually saved them, not killed them. I'll bet they end up on conspiracy theory forums the net over
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2014 17:53
|
|
|
Kopijeger posted:Aside from the soul vampires, were there any major storylines you had to cut out comepletely? Hm! I did regret pushing Nishanthi to the sidelines (my reasons for which were in this LP as well as the in-game commentary). I did plan on a game that centered around Madeline and Jocelyn a bit more. The idea was a haunted house on Long Island, which Rosa/Joey investigate in the present and there were flashbacks to when Madeline/Jocelyn investigated it in the past. It was a neat idea (which included a mechanic of switching between eras by looking in a mirror), but aside from the "neat idea" I couldn't think of a decent enough story to wrap around it. So I never bothered with it. The whole Rosa-possessed thing was going to be a whole game by itself. With Rosa in the void trying to get back, and Joey doing something on his end to help her. But as was said in this LP, it was a good idea for a small series of puzzles but not for an entire game. Which is why I merged the sixth game into the fifth and ended it here. I also, for some reason, had the idea of the climax of the series being on Governor's Island. There is this awesome crumbling prison yard there that would make a great location for a climactic scene, but I just couldn't come up with a good enough reason for them to go there. Ended up staying at Grace Church instead.quote:Since Bestowing is apparently something that passes among family members, will any of Rosa's more distant relatives (like other descendants of Patricia's parents) find themselves bestowing now that Rosa is dead? It's a possibility! quote:Do you intend to make more games set in the same universe? Definitely. The Shivah takes place in the same Universe, and any other game I do set in New York will be connected as well. quote:And a small thing that was raised earlier: Connor Fielding's headstone had a Luther Rose on it. Was it your intent to make the character Lutheran or did you just pick the symbol without realising what it meant? Hah. I noticed this in the LP comments and I had to laugh. I DID choose it at random. Kind of. I googled images of army veterans' graves and found that symbol. I liked it, so I used it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2014 17:57
|
|
|
Bacter posted:But the ending was: "Joey, not even my omniscience knows what to do!" ... "Oh wait, now it does. Hold on while I fix everything through wizard magic." Hah. Well the idea was that Rosa figured it out herself, rather then getting the knowledge via whatever was entering her head. She did know that it would kill her in the end, which is why she waited until it was the only option available. quote:But alright, here's a WOG question - presumably after finding her dead, Rosa's apartment is going to get searched. So is she going to go down in New York history as a serial killer? Joey most likely took Rosa's keys out of her pocket and is now living there. I'm sure he figured something out before the police arrived.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2014 18:02
|
|
|
Neddy Seagoon posted:I'm curious to know, given that Blackwell was originally going to be eight games long (and not knowing how much of it all you actually had planned in advance); are the events in Epiphany originally all from the eighth game, or are they big cherry-picked ones from the "unmade" 5th to 8th Blackwell games merged into a single game? It's hard to say. My way of designing was that I had a beginning, an end game, and several plot developments that I wanted to hit, but everything else was up for grabs. I could have extended it forever, or shorted it if I wanted to. I did hit all the major plot bits that I wanted to, so I call that a win.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2014 18:04
|
|
|
Dave, I don't want to come across as ungrateful for the series - I'd very eagerly look forward to another game in this continuity! I'm just spitting out whatever came into my head. Also, you've GOT to include a little Easter Egg in another game where the player character and everybody else in the room passes out, we get a "time passes" fade screen, and they get up and continue on like nothing happened! Edit: Also, a little view of some other bestowers in like, Jakarta working on a particularly stubborn old ghost when he's suddenly just sucked away by some etherial wind and turned into a ball. "W...wait! Where are you going?" Oh! Hey! Another WOD QUESTION Was Benjiro one of the spooks that got "saved"? Bacter fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Jul 28, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2014 18:07
|
|
|
My goodness. That was one heck of a ride. Thanks, cmndstab (and Dave)! I have to admit a tear crept down my cheek during the last few screens. (It was a manly, single tear I swear!)
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2014 18:22
|
|
|
Might as well ask this again. How exactly did the original plans with Jocelyn in the Void look? As nice as the scenes with Rosa and Lauren in the Void are, I always felt it was a pity we never got a chance to see Jocelyn reflect on how things spiraled way out of control from her banishing Madeline. Would she felt sorry or responsible for what happened or something else entirely? Plus I felt the final scene in the Void with Madeline would've worked much better with Jocelyn. I mean even considering Madeline's responsible for breaking Lauren's mind the two characters didn't have a lot tying them together. Also I feel like a bit of a dick of saying it with the developer in the thread, but there was one thing that really soured the ending for me. With ghost partner stories, it almost feels like a necessity for a tearful goodbye at the end, usually in the form of the ghost partner moving. I actually loved the twist on that here, with Joey unable to move on, the following uneasiness and eventually with Rosa being the one to move instead. So far so good, I was even tearing up here, but then Rosa pulled miracle revival powers out of nowhere and it just completely tore me out of the scene and I wasn't feeling the rest of the ending anymore. Like, maybe it's just me and maybe it wasn't intended at all, but I always contrasted Joey and Madeline in my mind. On the one hand you have Joey who is everything but a professional, he gives the impression he does the whole spook-saving business because that's all he can do in unlife and he has no problem giving poo poo to his partners. On the other hand you had Madeline who was always professional and dutiful at all times, and I always felt we're supposed to take her as the dictionary definition of Spirit Guide. So when she goes serial killer and eventually planned to effectively nuke a city's population just to move on or cease to exist, the question I felt was raised was "what does this mean for Joey, in the long run?" Hell, Madeline straight up asks the same question of Joey at the end. Then to revive Joey at the end feels like invalidating all that, like he has no reason to grow from his experiences and his life with Rosa. I just feel it would've been a stronger ending to have Joey stay a spirit guide and honour his promise to Rosa. I really did enjoy the game and the series though! Buying Epiphany day one was a great purchase and I'll definitely be following new releases in the future!
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2014 18:34
|
|
|
That ending was really over the top and I think that's okay. I think that was a good way to end it. The universe flooding into a bestower's head had been the thing in every game and Rosa making some use of it was pretty reasonable. This whole series was super cool and I'm super glad to have seen it all.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2014 18:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 08:52 |
|
|
DaveGilbert posted:Definitely. The Shivah takes place in the same Universe, and any other game I do set in New York will be connected as well. I just want to say I really love The Shivah. The writing and everything in it is so fun and clever.
|
|
#
?
Jul 28, 2014 18:39
|
|