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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Egalitarian struggle against oppression. But how is Koba struggling for egalitarian ideals?
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Jul 20, 2014 00:15
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Snak posted:But how is Koba struggling for egalitarian ideals? He stages his coup because he rightfully hates humans, and wants to rid apekind of the human threat. That's egalitarian, albeit a flawed sort of it. Humans are not ape, and therefore not included in the egalitée part. He sacrifices a close friend for these ideals. He's the real deal.
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Jul 20, 2014 00:48
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Hbomberguy posted:Wait, Stalin's in this movie? drat. I gotta see this now. How do they work that into the plot? Stalin was also called Koba  .
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Jul 20, 2014 00:52
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Koba is very perceptive: Caesar does love humans more than apes. More specifically, he considers humans a type of ape, and everyone superior to lower-class 'not-apes' like Koba. I disagree there. I think Caesar had a solid enough upbringing to know that humans are broadly good enough that going a little out of your way to help them survive as a species is something worth doing. Koba frames things as Apes over Humans or Humans over Apes.
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Jul 20, 2014 02:03
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Mantis42 posted:Stalin was also called Koba Was Caesar Lenin or Trotsky? Asking for a friend...
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Jul 20, 2014 02:05
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Snak posted:But how is Koba struggling for egalitarian ideals? He's named after Stalin for a reason. Koba is not a 'reverse racist' (and that would be stupid anyways). He has legitimate concerns about power being extracted from the flesh of the weakest. This legitimate cause only goes awry when he obsessively pursues the humans as class-enemies, in a way that goes beyond justice and into vengeance. He is, in the words of Neveldine/Taylor's Ghost Rider: Spirit Of Vengeance, an angel who went crazy. His is a divine, Old Testament style of violence, totally at odds with the heroes and the closest thing in the film to Christianity. That the Christian option is foreclosed in the standard dichotomy of 'liberalism or totalitarianism' is the main symptom of why things go wrong. In Captain America, Koba is named Winter Soldier. In Transformers, he is named Megatron. In Terminator, the T-100. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Jul 20, 2014 |
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Jul 20, 2014 02:07
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Saw this today, this movie was good as poo poo. I'll have to revisit the first because I remember hating it for some reason, but it's been a while. Koba on horseback with akimbo M249's was just loving perfect.
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Jul 20, 2014 03:04
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:He's named after Stalin for a reason. Koba is not a 'reverse racist' (and that would be stupid anyways). He has legitimate concerns about power being extracted from the flesh of the weakest. The bolded part is part of why I originally questioned you statement that Malcolm and Koba are "true allies". edit: explosivo posted:Saw this today, this movie was good as poo poo. I'll have to revisit the first because I remember hating it for some reason, but it's been a while. Koba on horseback with akimbo M249's was just loving perfect. Everyone brings up this scene because of how epic it is, but I really like the scene of Koba coming out of the fire on the horse. It's such a cliche scene, it's been done to death, I know, but the embodiment of rage in that scene is visceral. Snak fucked around with this message at 03:55 on Jul 20, 2014 |
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Jul 20, 2014 03:53
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Snak posted:The bolded part is part of why I originally questioned you statement that Malcolm and Koba are "true allies". Because if they were allies, he would not be as vengeful.
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Jul 20, 2014 03:56
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Saw this yesterday, top film.
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Jul 20, 2014 08:58
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I'm sorry, are we proceeding here from the position that Stalin was pursuing egalitarian ideals? Because I have bad news.
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Jul 20, 2014 18:14
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penismightier posted:I'm sorry, are we proceeding here from the position that Stalin was pursuing egalitarian ideals? Because I have bad news. No, but he could have been if he wasn't obsessed with exterminating what he perceived as class-enemies.
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Jul 20, 2014 18:22
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Hellbunny posted:No, but he could have been if he wasn't obsessed with exterminating what he perceived as class-enemies. Well that's good, the class enemy stuff is dead-on and, as SMG said, Koba was obviously named after the man for a reason. But I'm not seeing any "greater struggle" in Koba the ape, just as I definitely definitely am not seeing it in the man.
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Jul 20, 2014 18:26
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penismightier posted:I'm sorry, are we proceeding here from the position that Stalin was pursuing egalitarian ideals? Because I have bad news. Communism is an egalitarian ideal, and the question with Stalin is why this project went terribly awry. "Stalinism conceived itself as part of the Enlightenment tradition, according to which, truth being accessible to any rational man, no matter how depraved, everyone must be regarded as responsible for his crimes. But for the Nazis the guilt of the Jews was a fact of their biological constitution: there was no need to prove they were guilty, since they were guilty by virtue of being Jews. [...] Under Stalin, the ruling ideology presupposed a space in which the leader and his subjects could meet as servants of Historical Reason. Under Stalin, all people were, theoretically, equal." Stalin was, in this sense, 'worse than Hitler' because he was corrupting a good thing, where Hitler was just a dumb bad guy.
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Jul 20, 2014 18:57
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Communism is an egalitarian ideal, and the question with Stalin is why this project went terribly awry. I agree with all of this and think it's apt as hell. I've never believed Stalin personally cared about egalitarianism, which means that my problem, I guess, was just one of misunderstanding phrasing.
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Jul 20, 2014 19:00
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Xeremides posted:I'm probably a shitlord. The most plausible explanation you've offered so far I didn't read the first few pages, but has nobody considered the possibility that the filmmakers didn't include any prominent female apes, because they figured the viewing audience wasn't ready for ape boobs? This opens up a whole new argument about why female bodies must be hidden where male bodies are not, and why we project human taboos onto non-humans. I guess they could have taken some artistic liberties with the CGI models (I don't recall seeing any ape junk either). Even still, it doesn't excuse the lack of female representation on the human side.
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Jul 21, 2014 15:44
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Wildeyes posted:
I haven't seen Dawn, but I do remember the ape boobs in Rise.  Aaaand now I sound like a creep, thank you Wildeyes.
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Jul 21, 2014 16:15
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I didn't see Rise, or I would have known! Maybe there really is no excuse. On another note, god, Rise and Dawn of the Planet of the Apes...it's a chore to keep these names straight.
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Jul 21, 2014 16:17
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Wildeyes posted:On another note, god, Rise and Dawn of the Planet of the Apes...it's a chore to keep these names straight. Can't wait for Beginning of the Planet of the Apes, then Birth of the Planet of the Apes, then Genesis of the Planet of the Apes, and some day hopefully Commencement of the Planet of the Apes. e: Actually, Genesis of the Planet of the Apes would be rad if Caesar became a religious figure in the future. feedmyleg fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Jul 21, 2014 |
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Jul 21, 2014 16:45
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Night of the Living Planet of the Apes.
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Jul 21, 2014 16:48
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feedmyleg posted:Can't wait for Beginning of the Planet of the Apes, then Birth of the Planet of the Apes, then Genesis of the Planet of the Apes, and some day hopefully Commencement of the Planet of the Apes. Rocket as depicted in Rise was Nebuchadnezzar as gently caress: 
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Jul 21, 2014 18:16
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penismightier posted:Rocket as depicted in Rise was Nebuchadnezzar as gently caress: Please tell me there's a gif of this scene. I love the way he pulls his hand away.
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Jul 21, 2014 18:28
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Wildeyes posted:On another note, god, Rise and Dawn of the Planet of the Apes...it's a chore to keep these names straight. I legitimately think they should have titled the first film Dawn and the second film Rise.
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Jul 21, 2014 19:03
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The titles describe two distinct events. The planet rises, and then the sun dawns on the planet.
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Jul 21, 2014 19:10
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MisterBibs posted:I legitimately think they should have titled the first film Dawn and the second film Rise. Conquest of the Planet of the Apes and Battle for the Planet of the Apes are in the wrong order to me, too.
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Jul 21, 2014 19:12
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It finally made it to my country. Best loving summer movie,hands down. It looks pretty good in 3D, Ceaser is awesome,Koba is awesome,Blue Eyes is awesome.  I'm going to watch it again this next weekend,definitely. I haven't read the whole thread,because I was avoiding spoilers but did someone already mention that the apes' screams sounded more human than in Rise?
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Jul 25, 2014 02:17
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okkoobomyq
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Jul 25, 2014 15:01
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Saw the film last night, loved it. Noticed something about the finale, and was wondering if any one else did too or I was just imagining it. In the final scene we have the sun rising and shining light down on the assembled throng of apes. To me this was not only the titular "Dawn" but the deification of Caesar. Caesar is shot in view of everyone and falls into the forest. Immediately Koba is brandishing evidence of human treachery and shouting about avenging his death. As far as the apes are concerned Caesar is dead, a martyr for ape-kind. He's found the next morning by the humans, taken back to his old home and patched up. Blue Eyes goes out to rally support for him which Malcolm remarks has having taken nearly two days in a throwaway line to Caesar in the loft. Three days after his apparent death the women, children and the infirm enter the city to see Caesar, having cast out the sinner among them (who broke their first law in full view of many others) standing victorious in a huge lobby illuminated by the dawn's light. You can see some of them nearby bow with a hand raised in supplication, but more and more of them straight up fall to their knees as the light spreads and strengthens. Caesar is literally ape Christ.
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Jul 26, 2014 09:10
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Yeah I enjoyed the way they turned the sign for submission/reconciliation into their holy sign in deference to Caesar Also Caesar using the turn-styles while the rest of his comrades climb all over them, dirty apes
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Jul 26, 2014 09:19
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Which movie (or movies) do I need to see before seeing this new one. Just the one from 2011 right?
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Jul 26, 2014 21:59
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PaganGoatPants posted:Which movie (or movies) do I need to see before seeing this new one. Just the one from 2011 right?
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Jul 26, 2014 22:12
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I went into this without even seeing Rise and thought it was awesome.
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Jul 26, 2014 22:34
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It stands well on its own no doubt, watching Rise will give you the extra background info on Caesar and Koba (most of which is effectively summed up in Dawn) but the main reason is always to have more Maurice.
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Jul 26, 2014 22:52
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The use of the window-frame symbol is really cool. There's no reason to not watch Rise.
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Jul 27, 2014 01:40
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Sorry to double post. But old school Planet of the Apes and Star Trek crossover comic.
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Jul 27, 2014 04:16
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I really enjoyed this film. I do have to say, though, that I liked Koba's character better early in the film when he was the trusted adviser with a very different take on humans due to the scars he bore from them. He was less interesting and complex to me once he went full on villain/betrayer. I thought maybe it would have been more interesting if they'd stumbled into war due to the well meaning but disastrous actions of the underlings on both sides. The ape effects were incredible. I must say I was rather choked up when Cesar was looking at his old home movies.
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Jul 27, 2014 15:03
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Zwabu posted:He was less interesting and complex to me once he went full on villain/betrayer. I thought maybe it would have been more interesting if they'd stumbled into war due to the well meaning but disastrous actions of the underlings on both sides. Yeah, I was disappointed that his gratitude to Caesar for freeing him apparently didn't amount to much. I would have liked to see more internal conflict between what he thought was right, his feelings towards Caesar, and his desire for power. I would have happily given up some of the time spent with the humans to have room for that.
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Jul 27, 2014 17:17
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This movie was awesome, Caesar reminded me of myself looking down on all the nerds in PvP games as I let them know that they are less than Ape and loving throw them off cliffs. I scoff and call them idiots while laughing to myself just like Caesar, too. I found the movie very skillfully drawing of emotive themes, I appreciated the low content of dialogue. Best Regards, RG
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Jul 27, 2014 17:45
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Sir Kodiak posted:Yeah, I was disappointed that his gratitude to Caesar for freeing him apparently didn't amount to much. I would have liked to see more internal conflict between what he thought was right, his feelings towards Caesar, and his desire for power. I would have happily given up some of the time spent with the humans to have room for that. I don't disagree. I would like to have seen that. However, as is, it is perfectly reflective of people who refuse to recognize that they did not get where they are by themselves. There are a lot of boot-strappers who insist that they rose to wealth and power only by their own sheer force of will and not because of the myriad people and programs that helped them. It seems clear that Koba credits only the strength of an alpha ape for his freedom. Koba loved Caesar because he viewed Caesar as strong, and it's the strength and power that he really loves. It's like people who loved Glenn Beck because Beck was a reflection of their opinions. When Beck recently said that we should give shelter to illegal refugee children, some of those people immediately denounced Beck as having become soft and worthless. Again, I would have liked to see Koba be a deeper character, but the way he is is a perfect allegory for the career-minded ideological extremist.
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Jul 27, 2014 18:05
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RichardGamingo posted:This movie was awesome, Caesar reminded me of myself looking down on all the nerds in PvP games as I let them know that they are less than Ape and loving throw them off cliffs. I scoff and call them idiots while laughing to myself just like Caesar, too. Greatest Post 2014.
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Jul 27, 2014 18:18
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