How to negotiate offers?

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > How to negotiate offers?

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

C-Euro posted:

Do you have any resources you'd recommend to that end? I'm in QC/QA and definitely don't want to be doing that the rest of my life (or even at my next job), so a number for that specific field is less worthwhile for me when I don't want to be in that field.

http://www.acs.org/content/dam/acsorg/careers/salaries/acs-salary-report2014.pdf

# ¿ Feb 3, 2015 11:55

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# ¿ May 16, 2024 20:31

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

C-Euro posted:

FWIW my recruiter says he's "in my corner" and said he would talk to them and see where they might be flexible (such as a sign-on bonus), but he also confessed that he's representing this other candidate too so it's probably all the same to him. I'm in talks with a few other recruiters as well but this is my best shot at a job so far, so I'm trying to be as mindful as I can.

E: Semi-related, but how do people feel about sharing current/latest compensation with a recruiting agency? I told this guy mine today but framed it as total compensation for last year (which is higher than my take-home pay for that year), then later I messaged the recruiter again and asked him not to share that number with the company in question.

Your recruiter only gets paid if he places a candidate. So he has a perverse incentive to get you to accept as low a number as possible, because that makes the company more likely to hire you.

I would not share my current/latest compensation with a recruiter. I would only share my target salary. The only reason a recruiter would need to know your current/latest compensation is to try to talk you down to a lower salary that you would otherwise take.

# ¿ Jun 6, 2015 14:17

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

C-Euro posted:

How about if you're unemployed, and Job A makes you an offer while you're waiting to hear your results from an interview with Job B? With any luck I'll be in this position next week, do I tell Job A "I want to hear if I get an offer from Job B before signing on with you" or do I go straight into negotiations with Job A and worry about Job B later?

E: FFFFFFFFFFF Surprise phonecall just now from someone at Job A (presumably HR) while the hiring manager is out of town, she said they're "interested" in me but wanted to know my salary expectations and then gave me a bunch of questions to answer about the benefits package at my last job. They're calling everyone they interviewed and saying the exact same things, right? I gave them a number that's a few thousand above the average salaries I've seen online, and the benefits at my last job were really good, but I kept asking "are you ready to make an offer" and they wouldn't say.

I agree with Dwight Eisenhower mostly, but I also want to add that there's really no reason to discuss anything regarding compensation at your last job. Make vague statements about how you were satisfied and how you're looking forward to working with them. When they ask your salary expectations, say that you'd give consideration to any offer in line with the industry average for your area. You want to assure them that you're not going to ask for an unreasonably high salary, but at the same time you DO NOT want to give the first number. If they persist in asking for you to give the first number, it's a big red flag that they're trying to dick you over on salary. In that case, give them a number 20-25% over the industry average and tell them you're flexible if the benefits line up.

Negotiation should begin with an offer from them. Anything before that is meaningless at best, and can hurt your negotiation position. Stalling and interviewing with Company B greatly improves your BATNA (best alternative to a negotiated agreement), which is the best way to improve your negotiation position. If they insist on getting an answer before you interview with Company B, it's another big red flag.

# ¿ Jun 13, 2015 14:39

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Double post, but with the number of success stories in this thread, I suspect we're well over the $1,000,000 level in gained total earnings for goons. Myself included. Thanks in part to the advice in here, I got a good raise recently.

So, thanks guys. It'd be cool if someone with more free time went through and added up the success stories.

# ¿ Jun 13, 2015 14:52

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

dead lettuce posted:

Thank you both, really great advice. It's a tricky situation since I don't want to push my hand too much, but I also don't want to leave money on the table--but in the end, I win either way. If they offer <$95k, I may try to negotiate up a bit, but if they offer $95k or more I'm not sure it would be wise to try to push it to $100k since this is a great opportunity and I'm still young and relatively less experienced for this job level--I only have 3 years of full-time experience, most analysts at this level have at least 5 years if not more and are in their 30s with families. I will still totally feel like I've won at $95k. I'll assess the tone from my director and new manager when I get the offer, along with the offer itself, and take it from there. My annual bonus % will be going up along with the promotion, too, which along with the base salary raise will mean another ~$4k a year at a minimum, probably more. Dwight, I like your point about a good director being a substitute for negotiation. It really seems like that is the case for me, he has now given me 2 raises/opportunities without even having to ask, so staying on his team for the next couple years seems like a wise decision.

The lunch yesterday went really well. I think I might even like the new team more than my current one, so that's another point in favor of taking the new job. I'm meeting with the team members and manager individually today, so fingers crossed for no red flags, but it's looking really good--some flexibility/WFH, a relaxed team and manager who know how to joke around, and no more than 40-45 hours a week. It's looking strongly like I'll take the job at this point, but I'll update the thread once everything's finalized and after the salary is worked out, probably Monday or Tuesday. Thanks again!

You may be aware of this already, but your director gave you the unexpected 5% "increase in responsibility" raise because he knew he was making an internal transfer and wanted to poach you. Either he'd reset your salary if you moved, or the hit would be to the new director's budget if you stayed put. It was a very cheap way (to him, at least) to build goodwill to you. Jumping into a new team at the director level can be a huge challenge, and having one familiar face that has a demonstrated good work history is a huge asset in making the transition.

The reason I'm spelling this out is to point out that you are in a very strong negotiating position. Your director wants you and only you personally at this point. Just be discreet; he can't appear to be playing favorites with the guys he's bringing with him over the already established team.

# ¿ Jun 20, 2015 21:19

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

C-Euro posted:

Does this ever pan out? During the interview for my current job, when discussing career growth my manager stated that "for pay, the company likes to start people on the lower end of salary scale, but is aggressive with raises if they think you're valuable". Has anybody been fed the "aggressive growth" or "potential" line with regards to starting compensation, and then actually reaped the rewards?

It's actually the exact opposite. Hiring managers are more likely to view the people on the higher end of the pay scale as better simply because they're paid more. So the people on the high end are more likely to get better raises.

# ¿ Jul 12, 2015 18:16

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

No one inside your company actually gives a gently caress whether you use Skype for business or Lync. It's an eminently forgettable project.

On the contrary. We just switched from Lync to Skype for Business, and I'm pissed off that it deleted my contacts list. So I do care.

# ¿ Jul 17, 2015 04:33

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Blinky2099 posted:

edit tldr:

- Interning at a company
- Discussing full time, haven't gone through the interview+presentation+test+etc process yet, but my team wants me
- Recruiter wants to talk salary before this process so we don't waste either of our times, wants me to give a number/range
- I insist on not giving a number and am more comfortable discussing after, or he can give me a range so that I can decide whether or not to continue with the interview process
- He declines, says that idea sucks pretty much
- I try yet again
- He declines, says he could say a range but, word for word: "our ranges are wide so if i was to give you one it wouldn't really help you to make your decision "
- I finally say okay, I'll give him a number next week.

How high of a number should I ask for?

Applying for a materials engineering position, somewhat niche.
Glassdoor: Mechanical Engineer, 78k-130k, 97k average (48 reports)
Manufacturing engineer: 82k-118k, 96k avg (32 reports)
Design engineer, 76k-128k, 99.6k avg (30 reports)
Mechanical design engineer: 72k-117k, 92k avg (10 reports)

I'm afraid of asking for the 100s because of my lack of experience. I've also heard rumors of starting salaries are mid 70s to mid 80s. Really not sure what number will be too high/out of their range/scare them off. I was really hoping for low 80s but now it sounds like I could get a lot higher... maybe...?

When in doubt, quote total compensation, not salary. That gives you much more wiggle room to negotiate after they throw out an offer. Open with 95k total compensation and see what they say. If the offer sucks, say that you were expecting more salary up front. If it's good, take it.

Either way, you're an intern. Take the job regardless of the offer and work it for 2 years. Then use your two years of experience, connections, and networking to get the job you actually want at the salary you want. Put in the work.

# ¿ Aug 8, 2015 02:23

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Tao Jones posted:

There's a story of a woman who worked at Google and started a spreadsheet for employees to voluntarily share their salaries and faced retaliation from management as a direct result. I'd be more worried about that than "company policy" unless a contract put me under an NDA relating to my salary (which is probably a terrible contract that would take a lot of money to get me to sign).

Federal courts have ruled that it is illegal to restrict employees from discussing their salaries. However, it's almost never a good idea to talk about your salary with co-workers.

# ¿ Aug 8, 2015 02:39

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Blinky2099 posted:

For what it's worth, it's my third internship not my first, but that's not a lot of additional experience. I'll probably just get entry-level and might be able to squeeze out ~85k at best. I'll throw out a number in the high 80's and see what happens. Thanks all.

I don't mean to sound antagonistic, but third internship? Doing more than one internship is going to make people wonder why you didn't get an offer after the first or second. But, you do sound like you know the job market and you sound confidant about your current internship, so I think you'll do fine. Just don't tell them you're not entry-level because you've done three internships.

Edit: Everyone is underpaid on their first job. Put in the work. You'll get what you're worth on your second job after you're a proven quantity. Never not network, especially when you're at a job you like.

Dik Hz fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Aug 8, 2015

# ¿ Aug 8, 2015 21:10

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Organza Quiz posted:

I recently qualified to do a relatively niche job (migration agent - that's a separate thing from being a lawyer here) that has pretty decent career prospects, although entry-level positions at actual companies aren't popping up quite as often as I'd like. I saw an ad today looking for people for an unpaid internship with the potential for employment in the future. Now, I don't personally believe unpaid internships are at all ethical and I have no intention of doing one. I'm considering applying to them anyway but making a case for why they should be paying me for my efforts. I know they're probably just going to take someone who applies without that stipulation but I figure I have nothing to lose. What I'm wondering is if people have opinions about whether I should bring up that argument in my cover letter or wait until they potentially interview me to mention I would expect to be paid for my time? I figure I have a greater chance of success if I already have them on the hook, as it were. I know they do have the budget to be paying more people working for them because the ad also mentions potential contract work (which I wouldn't be able to do due to some badly thought-out rules about registering as a migration agent that aren't worth getting into here). Is this a monumentally stupid idea that could come back to bite me in ways I haven't considered?

I wouldn't even entertain the idea of working for a company that thought it was OK to not pay for work.

# ¿ Aug 22, 2015 13:07

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Blinky2099 posted:

update: asked for $88k. a direct quote from a meeting today: "I took a look at the number you threw our way. I think it's more than reasonable, and in fact, we'll probably be able to beat it."

Well, I hosed up by not asking for enough, but had no way of knowing that was the case. At least recruiting is somehow willing to (possibly) offer me more than I asked for, for some weird reason. Not too worried about the $ difference between what they're going to offer vs. ~maximum value~ since it's likely I'll be moving between a few companies for the first decade out of school. I'll count my blessings instead.
Thanks for the help everyone.

Congrats! You may not have hosed up, though. They may just be saying that and giving you a slight bump for morale reasons. By knowing what to expect, you came across as professional and reasonable, which makes you look more valuable. If you had come out and said "Industry average is $110k so pay me $115k," things may have turned out differently. But, good job!

hbf posted:

Anyone have any resources/advice for renegotiating while staying at the same company? Basically, I was hired during a slow period a couple of years ago when the company (a huge one) was in transition. I was also new to the area and wasn't exactly certain of the averages for the city so I didn't negotiate properly at all. Now my specific line of work is in very high demand and the company itself is doing great. I could easily job hop for +20% increase elsewhere and I'm being headhunted pretty heavily. However, I'd prefer to stay as I really like it and the other options, while they do pay higher, have their own set of negatives. I know they are offering the salary I am gunning for because I referred a friend recently and he strait up showed me his offer letter. Another coworker also divulged their salary when they left for a new position a couple months ago. I am guessing I shouldn't mention these things though.

My current plan is to request a meeting and make my request known, while showing industry standards and my performance reviews (all perfect). My worry is that even though I'm basically requesting to be brought up to average, it's still a huge increase so they won't go for it. I am positive if I was hired right now I would get the number I am looking for though which makes this so strange. How firmly do I push? I don't exactly want to threaten to leave, because well I really don't want to, but I could if I had to.

Sorry, but it's rarely possible. People have a first-impression fallacy where they continue to see you as the person that walked in the door on day one. To get paid you need to move to a new job where people don't remember you as less experienced and desperate. It gets worse, too. People have a tendency to justify your lower salary as well. Bosses tend to view people who make more money as more competent and more deserving of further raises, regardless of performance.

bolind posted:

Slightly out-of-scope for this thread, but I don't know where else to ask: what's good advice when your boss pulls you aside and asks you about a former co-worker of yours, who has now applied at your current company? Especially if your opinion of said co-worker is less than stellar...

It depends on your relationship with your boss. If you have a friendly relationship, feel free to speak the truth. Just don't say anything that could bite you in the rear end if your boss has already made the decision to hire the person. This is the perfect situation to work on your corporate weasel-speak. Something like, "He had challenges with team-based projects and implementing new technologies, but his attendance and attitude were rarely questioned," sends a very clear disapproval, but doesn't put you on the record about him. If you boss has even the slightest amount of perception, she'll pick up on exactly what you're saying.

Dik Hz fucked around with this message at 12:03 on Aug 27, 2015

# ¿ Aug 27, 2015 11:54

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Kalenn Istarion posted:

In the U.S. You can actually be sued if you say anything negative which isn't factual and they don't get hired and vice versa if you say something unduly positive and they turn out to be a bad hire.

IANAL, but I'm pretty sure you can't be sued if you're not the hiring manager. Also, you can never be sued if what you say is accurate. Which is why you should say things that can't be proved inaccurate. And beyond that, you can clearly communicate disapproval to anyone even slightly perceptive without saying anything that could be construed in a court of law as inaccurate.

Xguard86 posted:

hi negotiation thread,

a little over a year ago I posted here for some advice and it was really helpful. In particular, I had an offer that was a huge jump in pay and way above what I expected, but wouldn't budge past what they had offered when I countered. People here, particularly Eisenhower said it was smart to take the job and not sweat it. I accepted the job and its gone great but I thought you guys would laugh at what happened after:

so in my counter I asked for like 5% more and they said they couldn't budge. After 6 months I got a call and was told that they'd done a market analysis and realized they needed to pay people more to meet demand and I was getting a pay bump of.... 5%. Knowing the company and how things are organized, I don't believe this was more than coincidence (or maybe I'm the rain man of compensation). Funny how things work out.

Also, I used some of what I learned from that journey to get a promotion and ~10% more pay (on top of that 4% that occurred previously) at my first annual review.

Congrats. Add it to the running total for this thread. (I wish someone kept a running total, but :effort:

)

# ¿ Aug 31, 2015 00:07

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Kalenn Istarion posted:

Pretty sure the onus is in the other direction - you have to have a factual basis for negative comments or can be construed as libellous, but I'm not a U.S. Employment lawyer and haven't had occasion to talk to one in ages. Point is, be very cautious on who and how you provide feedback on former co-workers.

Again, IANAL, but the other party would first have to show that they suffered harm to bring suit. And then they would have to prove in a court of law that you caused the harm. But you'd be protected by the first amendment. Companies don't want to deal with it on any level, so they advise people to not talk at all.

But I'd love to hear from an employment attorney on this if one wants to chime in.

# ¿ Aug 31, 2015 01:04

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

antiga posted:

Hm, thanks for the input. That's not how I see it, but maybe I explained poorly. My boss is not the decision maker, like I said he is one level away so his boss ("big boss") is making the call. I am meeting with my boss shortly to discuss salary (and set expectations in the likely event that he chooses to share everything I say with the decision maker), not negotiate. I do not expect anything to change until Q1 '16 with the next review, and I intend to be very well prepared.

The retention issue is a major part of my leverage. My assignment is highly public within the organization and the previous person in my shoes left the company instead of completing the rotation. If the same thing happened with me it would reflect extremely poorly on big boss.

My aversion to showing up for this discussion with an offer letter is that it would be an ultimatum and I think this can be resolved without extreme measures. I have reliable "market" data and evidence through my assignments and my previous review that I'm performing well. The sort of questions I was planning to ask would be to get a feel for whether showing up with an offer would rub the big boss the wrong way, which I think is very likely.

Then again, I've thought the posts in this thread were generally dead on when talking about other people. I could be too close to the issue to be objective.

I think it's a pretty telling sign that they have retention issues with engineers around the 3-5 year mark. It probably means they don't pay people what they're worth. Your best strategy is to find a new job. Be willing to walk.

# ¿ Sep 4, 2015 23:21

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

rouliroul posted:

Is there a graceful way to go back on a range I gave early in the process like a dumbass? Cause I lowballed myself

There isn't a graceful way to do it, but you can always make up an excuse why their offer isn't acceptable and counter-offer way higher. Like, if they offer you $50k and your new educated range is 75-85k, just say that after further research, taking into account your SO's relocation expenses/housing costs/poor school district/whatever, you would need 85k to move. They will probably be unhappy, but that's life. You have a pretty good shot of torpedoing he negotiations. But it's not like you're going to take a lowball either way.

# ¿ Sep 14, 2015 23:21

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Suspicious Lump posted:

How'd you go about getting a job in the industry? Currently in science and about to being a PhD, thinking of moving to the private sector and wondering how the hell do I go about doing this.

Recruiters and connections. Ask around for a good recruiter that other people from your department have used. Ask grad students that have gone into industry for contacts. Update your Linked-In account.

If you're still in school, go to your preferred industry's next trade show or convention. Present as many posters as you can, and talk to everyone that stops by your poster. Treat every conversation as a job interview. I've hired a (Master's level) person from a poster session because I was impressed by their thorough knowledge of the methodology I need.

But, all my PhD hires have been through a recruiter.

Saint Fu posted:

Am I greedy for wanting to ask for an additional 10-20% base salary in hopes of getting them to meet somewhere in the middle? They have invested quite a bit of time in interviewing me and the position seems to be a tough one to fill since they have had a number of people cycle through it in the last 2 years apparently. The fact that no one seems to want the position makes me question whether I really want to take it or not, but every man has his price.

Absolutely not. You should always ask for more. If asking for more money winds up being a negative thing, it's a deal-killing red flag.

Saint Fu posted:

Also, I've never had an annual bonus before, I'm not sure how to figure it into the decision. It says clearly in the offer letter that the bonus level is subject to change based on personal and company performance so I kind of want to discount its value but on the other hand, it seems to be pretty standard in the industry from what I understand by asking around.

Any number of things can kill a bonus. Don't get paid in vague promises, get paid in salary. A bonus is exactly that: a bonus.

KernelSlanders posted:

Also, and I know this is a serious first world problem, but what's up with offer with a three day expiration. Do people take them seriously?

False urgency is a common negotiation tactic. Politely ask for more time if you need more time to decide. If they're dicks about it, they're likely to dicks about a lot more things.

Dik Hz fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Sep 18, 2015

# ¿ Sep 18, 2015 22:53

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS posted:

I meant "harmful" more in the sense that like you give them a number that's totally off-base and they think you're a moron.

Do some research and find out what salaries are common for that job in that area so you know.

# ¿ Sep 27, 2015 13:24

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Chaotic Flame posted:

It would be a huge red flag if they rescinded the offer just because you tried to negotiate. I'd consider that a bullet dodged.

Only lovely clueless inept managers would rescind an offer because you tried to negotiate. They are terrible bosses and you would not want to work for someone like that. Don't ask me how I know that.

# ¿ Sep 27, 2015 19:08

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

rouliroul posted:

Wouldn't that work in reverse though? Say the client wants me and the recruiter negotiates the salary with me. Shouldn't he just offer me the top of client's range to increase the chance I'll just say yes without spending hours negotiating?

The recruiter gets paid most by closing many deals quickly, not by wringing the last penny out of each deal. The recruiter's best interests are simultaneously convincing the employer to offer more money and convincing the applicant to take less money. Your interests are not perfectly aligned with your recruiter's.

# ¿ Oct 10, 2015 01:42

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

kloa posted:

Does this thread cover negotiations raises too? Can't seem to find a thread on that subject.

If so, I just have a general question regarding bringing up asking for a promotion and pay raise below.

Maybe it's a generational thing, but why is emailing, rather than face to face, "not a good business practice" when discussing promotions and raises? Coming from a technical job, I'm used to having a paper trail for everything that happens around me. I don't like the idea of going to lunch with my boss, him saying I'll get the raise I want, and then come time it doesn't happen due to "other circumstances," but maybe that's just me projecting

Negotiate in person, then e-mail to confirm details. It is standard in business. Send an e-mail afterwards to the gist of "Just so we're clear, we agreed to....."

# ¿ Oct 23, 2015 00:40

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Happiness Commando posted:

My boss made some changes to our healthcare policy, and I found out when Kaiser sent me an email "congratulations on your new policy!". I feel somewhere between kind of pissed and really pissed, because the new plan covers less and I will incur more costs on not only the regular preventive care that is part of being a healthy, responsible adult, and also the stuff I haven't taken care of - like physical therapy, a prescription refill, etc. - because why would my health benefits be changed without notice?

I feel like a 10 second email "hey guys, health care costs are rising, I'm making changes, get your poo poo taken care of" would be infinitely more courteous and kind then "hey guys, health care costs are rising, gently caress you".

Do I have unrealistic expectations? At our next check-in I want to rage about how he made changes to my compensation package without even a heads up, but I don't have any basis for evaluating how sane it is and how angry I should be...

fake edit: He claims to "hate dealing with HR stuff", which is his excuse every time he has hosed me over. I might need a new job.

Yes you do. rear end in a top hat bosses never change.

# ¿ Nov 19, 2015 00:34

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

iv46vi posted:

Couple of years back I've decided to leave academia for personal reasons and move to an unrelated field in the industry. Entry level operations management position in manufacturing, lots of working hours, lots of overtime etc. In total I made just over 50k in the seven months of good times before the oil cratered and took a lot of local jobs with it including mine.

Several months of unemployment later, an interesting posting turns up. Brand new position in a different company, good potential for growth, aligns quite well with both my academic and operations experience. I would very much like to take a swing at it. Two interviews later, they ask for my salary expectations for this position. The original posting gives a broad range of 42-62k. National median for this type of position varies between 46-65k, depending on the proportion of managerial duties.

My initial feeling is to ask closer to the top end of the range, but would that make them drop me as a candidate?

You only have 7 months of experience, so it might come off bad asking for the top number. Personally, in your position, I'd ask for 59k (if you're willing to take it). You're anchoring at the top of the price range, but 50s sounds much lower than 60s, even if its only 3k.

It depends, though. Did you pick you because they thought they could get you cheap? Or did they really like something on your resume and have already decided to hire you, no matter what it costs? If you can get a good read on that, it would affect your negotiating strategy.

# ¿ Nov 27, 2015 19:06

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Beast of Bourbon posted:

He emailed me tonight asking if I'd be interested in the step-up job! He knows that I was aware of the other candidate being offered the job. Also that other candidate is, I'm not afraid to say this, substantially more experienced than I am and is a "better' candidate.

How the heck do I navigate this situation? I'm not hurting to take a job right away, and this job is a pretty good one that I would be interested in, but not a once-in-a-lifetime kind of position. I am very clearly not their first choice.

The hiring manager appears to be open and honest, which is a great sign in a future boss. The better candidate didn't take the job, and now you're their first choice for the job. You're in a strong negotiating position.

# ¿ Dec 9, 2015 23:18

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Xandu posted:

Just to update the thread, ended up getting a little less than 70 in base salary, but with a bonus that brings it over.

Congrats! Another success story.

# ¿ Dec 12, 2015 14:40

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Grumpwagon posted:

Am I burning a bridge by taking the bonus? I likely will regardless, I'm just wondering if this matters or is insignificant.

No, the bonus is a tiny portion of the profit the business made from your contributions in the previous 2 quarters. You've already earned it and won't be burning any bridges. Besides, anyone who cares enough about a $5k bonus to try to use it against you is a trifling pissant whose opinion doesn't matter to anyone worthwhile.

# ¿ Jan 20, 2016 23:53

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

^^^^^^ So true.

Pryor on Fire posted:

You guys are being a little silly, some people are just old fashioned and want to do things face to face or over the phone. Simply opening and navigating gmail/outlook is a real struggle for a large swath of the population. Just make sure you're prepared ahead of time with as much info as possible and fake confidence even if you're broke and about to get evicted and you can go about these things in person like respectful adults, it's fine. Email and time is preferable sure but don't turn that into a war or anything.

Meet face-to-face, but say that you need to talk over the written offer with your wife/priest/parents/fishing buddy.

# ¿ Feb 5, 2016 01:20

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

OOPRCT posted:

I'm a 2nd year PhD student in a STEM field. I worked for a tech company for a year before joining grad school. I got the position because I knew a professor in the company who had an opening and he offered it to me. A comparable salary for what I'm doing is along the lines of 100k a year in that part of America, so I think the $32/hr is much lower than what is reasonable.

Also, how do I handle the fact that the recruiter hasn't responded still? What should I say to get him to respond that hopefully won't gently caress me further?

$32/hr is very good for an internship for someone without an advanced degree. Also, $32/hr is really ~$85k/year if you work 50 hour weeks, like everyone else in STEM fields. And there's likely a big difference between an internship wage and a full employee salary.

# ¿ Feb 10, 2016 12:30

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Saint Fu posted:

Need some advice on how to handle this situation.

I accepted a job offer with a new company last fall. Prior to accepting, they sent me the offer along with a benefits package (titled benefits enrollment guide). In the package it described the pension as such: "[company] contributes quarterly to your pension account based on your age at the end of each quarter. Less than 30 : 4.5%, 30 to 39 : 5.5%, 40 to 49 : 6.5%, etc.."

This was kind of vague to me so I asked the person doing the recruiting (Senior Recruiter, Talent Acquisition, HR) the following: "I do have a question regarding the pension calculation. Being that I am between 30-39, am I correct in understanding that the 5.5% is 5.5% of my base salary? I.e. 100,000 * 5.5% = 5,500 at the end of every quarter?" [note salary (100k) changed in this post to remain anonymous]

She replied, "yes, the quarterly pension account would be 5.5% of eligible pay which includes bonuses, base pay, and also OT (if applicable, which is generally for non-exempt positions)."

So I was under the impression I'd be getting $5,500 added to my pension account/fund every quarter.

Now that I've started I've gotten a hold of the official document which contains the equations and runs projections. It describes the pension contributions as actually 5.5% of your eligibile pay during that quarter so it'll instead be 100,000 * 1/4 * 5.5% = 1,375 added to my account every quarter.

This obviously adds up to quite a bit of money over a year let alone a career. So I am feeling very misled right now. I don't think it was necessarily intentional but regardless I feel I like was pretty clear in my question and the response I received via email indicates that my initial understanding was correct. I imagine my first step will be to go back to HR to ask for rectification but I'm considering going to my boss first instead. Or should I be prepared to lawyer up? I don't want to cause any problems and would happily keep working here if I were given what was negotiated for.

Is there an obvious recourse for someone who has been misled (intentionally or otherwise) regarding pay/benefits during a negotiation and has a paper trail to prove it? Or maybe my case isn't as solid as I see it?

e: I guess my questions were more intended to be after I approach HR/management and if/when they come back and say, sorry, the policy won't be changed for you.

Let's be realistic here. Did you seriously think they were going to give you +22% (or up) of your base salary per year into a pension? That is so far above even the best pension/retirement benefit out there that it bears greater scrutiny. Did you not have access to the official document as part of the offer before you accepted the position?

Her e-mail is perfectly accurate. You get a percentage of your base pay for that quarter in the pension. No reasonable person would think that you would get your entire year's salary counted for each quarter. If that was the case, why wouldn't they pay it out yearly instead of quarterly?

Dik Hz fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Feb 13, 2016

# ¿ Feb 13, 2016 01:42

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Saint Fu posted:

Realistically, I agree that it's not very likely there will be anything I can do at this point. Again, I don't think it was intentional on their part nor do I feel like she was trying to screw me over, but I am feeling pretty misled by the whole thing. I'll give myself some time to cool off and collect my wits before approaching HR to see what they say. Maybe I'll be able to use it to leverage an additional raise or something. It took over a year for them to fill this role and the person who was last in it has made it very clear she will not be taking over duties again now that I've been hired.

Yeah, go to HR and tell them that you need more money because you're naive and feel misled, even though they didn't mislead you at all. Report back about how it goes.

Wait, you get a 5.5% pension and a generous 401k match? And you still feel entitled to more? Even after a 35% raise? :wtc:

# ¿ Feb 13, 2016 13:14

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Grumpwagon posted:

Lets not do this.

do what?

# ¿ Feb 13, 2016 19:31

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Grumpwagon posted:

While I agree in this case, he's not going to get what he wants, I don't think we should start saying "you got a 35% raise, what more do you want?"

Gotcha. I meant more that his pension/401k is already better than 99% of people's out there.

# ¿ Feb 14, 2016 14:09

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Saint Fu posted:

but I feel like it can't hurt to let them know (diplomatically of course) that I'm not 100% happy with it.

You gotta weigh the potential benefit (more money) and odds (very low) vs the potential harm (being labeled a malcontent) and odds (decent chance).

# ¿ Feb 14, 2016 19:28

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Betazoid posted:

They already declined the telework day since they allow flextime if you have a sick spouse/kid. The recruiter went back to the hiring manager to see if they can get me more PTO (I asked for 19 rather than 17 days). Even if all of my asks are declined (telework, PTO, more $), I will probably still take this job. The gravy train is leaving the station at my current job and I don't want to sink any more time into it when I could be building a good reputation as an editor.

When your BATNA is the original offer, you're not in a good negotiating place. Not saying you shouldn't, but don't push too hard. Also, don't tell your recruiter your position. They're like real estate agents. They only get paid on close, so they do everything they can to close. Including lowball their product (the job candidate) to get a quick sale.

# ¿ Feb 27, 2016 21:17

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Fireside Nut posted:

Soooooo, can I use this offer as leverage? If my current company calls my bluff I'm not leaving, so I don't want to get burned. Of course, I don't plan on telling them the location of the offer.

Tl;dr. Anyone have any advice for using an out of state offer that I don't plan on taking to try and get a raise at my current position?

You can try. But if there are layoffs ahead, you're labeling yourself as the guy with one foot out the door. You'd likely be the first one cut. Your manager might even think she's doing you a favor. You will go make more money elsewhere!

# ¿ Mar 1, 2016 13:30

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Dwight Eisenhower posted:

Trying to dot some i's and cross some t's let's draft a new negotiation thread OP:

Title: The Negotiation Thread: Home off the range

Body:

Negotiation is one of the better ways to improve your compensation and progress your career while engaging in the less privileged side of wage slavery. Goons employing negotiation tactics during salary negotiations frequently end up gaining multiple thousands of dollars a year in additional compensation, more paid time off, and more valuable benefits. In many cases, simply asking and being confident is enough to carry you to victory, but it's important to understand a little bit of negotiation theory and a few hard and fast rules to succeed!

BATNA: The Best Alternative to a Negotiated Alternative

Pretty much every post that offers advice in this thread will start talking about the BATNAs involved as Kalenn Istarion got us to coalesce around this useful linguistic concept. Simply put, the BATNA is what will happen if one or both parties walk away from a compromised deal. When you have a good BATNA, you can demand more from the other party. When the other party has a good BATNA, they can demand more from you. All negotiation centers around the BATNAs involved, and it is important to understand that both you and your prospective employer each have a BATNA. A good negotiator is not only contemplating their own BATNA, but is also contemplating the other party's BATNA. As an example, if you have applied to a job at two different companies, and one (let's call them Generous) is offering 10% more than the other (Stingy), then your BATNA with Stingy is to walk away and and take the offer from Generous. This gives you more leverage when negotiating with Stingy; if they walk away and refuse to meet your demands then you have an objectively better alternative! However it also means that you don't have as good a BATNA with Generous, as if they decide to walk away you are immediately left only with the worse opportunity available from Stingy. If you frame your negotiations in terms of BATNA you may not always get exactly what you want, but you'll get close to the best available.

THE RULES
1. Never tell a new employer what you are currently making: This information is not relevant to their offer, and it is not relevant to their other options. Employers ask for this information to anchor your expectations around what you are currently making. If an employer is asking for this information, politely decline, and offer instead to talk about what kind of compensation you are looking for from them. If they absolutely insist on you telling them what you used to make, you may want to walk away and find another opportunity.
2. Try not to lead in disclosing a target salary: If you can get an offered salary from a prospective employer, instead of offering a salary you would take the job at, then you will often come up with a better outcome. Whoever states a hard and fast number first will anchor the further discussion in the context of that number. If you state a number out the gate, then the employer will either accept that offer, or try to push down from that point. If the employer states a number out the gate, then you will either accept that number, or try to push it higher. Establishing a floor and going up has better outcomes than establishing a ceiling and going down!
3. Do not give a salary range: A salary range tells an employer three things: You don't know how to negotiate, that you're not holding a firm position, and that you'll accept the bottom of that salary range. What possible value is there in you telling an employer a salary range instead of telling them the number at the top of the range? For the employer it puts a cap on how much they might have to pay you, it tells them that you're volunteering to be bullied down to the bottom of that range, and that you really don't know what you're doing. For you it does nothing good.
4. Be thoughtful about what information you give the other party: This relates to rule 1 above. Information that you give an employer lets them more comprehensively understand your BATNA, and if that information removes uncertainty to show them that you have a worse BATNA than they might have thought, they'll get more aggressive. Conversely, information that demonstrates you have a better BATNA demonstrates you will be more willing to walk away and go with your BATNA.
5. Know when you've won: It is important to know when you've won. When you set out to negotiate, have a clear goal in mind, and if the other party is willing to meet that goal, then you are probably best served in most cases to agree to the deal then and there. You are taking a certain victory that meets your goal at the outset over risking coming off greedy. (And if you can't stop somewhere and be satisfied, you ARE being greedy!)
6. The best time to find a new job is when you have one you don't already hate: This is self evident if you think about BATNA's, if you hate your current job then literally anything else is possibly better, and it is very hard for you to walk away and keep working at your job you hate. Get ahead of the ball and start looking when things look bad, don't wait for them to look hopeless.
7. Practice makes perfect: A lot of good negotiating comes from confidence and consistency. If you aren't used to talking about money, let alone demanding it forcefully, then it can feel awkward to have a discussion about your future salary. If you negotiate enough eventually you'll get good at it and it will feel natural. The best way to practice is to go on interviews and get to the offer stage. Getting to the offer stage does NOT represent a commitment on your part to accept. But if you do it frequently enough you'll start feeling less awkward an be able to present a smoother and more confident image that WILL help you get what you want!

Lots of people have provided good advice in previous negotiating threads, but it's worth calling out specifically swenblack, Kalenn Istarion, and Boot and Rally for their consistently great advice and willingness to help! Thanks goons!

Excellent OP! I'd also add that this thread has conservatively earned goons over $1,000,000 since it opened up.

I'd suggest for a first point:

Why negotiate?: The easiest way to get a significant raise is to change jobs. There is never a better opportunity to negotiate a higher salary than when you are handed a job offer that you have not yet accepted. In addition, two common biases come into play. First impression bias means that people will tend to perceive you as being at the level you start out at, no matter how long you work at a company. By negotiating a better starting salary or title, you're perceived as more competent from the start. In addition, this explains why you're more likely to get a big raise when you change jobs than if you stay in your current job. The other bias is a form of confirmation bias. If you convince someone to pay you more money, they're going to look for reasons why you're worth more money. It's backwards, but because of this the people at the top of the salary range get the largest raises on average.

MickeyFinn posted:

Rule 9: At the end of negotiations, if you both accept, get everything in writing.

MickeyFinn is right. This is essential.

That reminds me. Mention the trick to get things in writing. If you have a conversation with someone, e-mail them afterwards and say, "Just so we're both clear, this is what we discussed....".

Dik Hz fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Mar 5, 2016

# ¿ Mar 5, 2016 00:24

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Yeah, there should probably be a post about recruiters, but I'm not sure it should go in the OP. Recruiters are not your friend. They get paid when they close, so its in their best interest to get your to say yes for as cheap as possible. Because that makes them more likely to place you in a position.

# ¿ Mar 9, 2016 06:38

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Totally TWISTED posted:

I have a phone offer as of this afternoon for a new job. I am expecting it in writing tomorrow morning. I will 99% take the offer as it stands. However, I want to ask for more. What would be a good way to word the opening to my email reply such that I don't come across as weak on the increases that I am asking for but also don't make myself look like a backtracker if I take their offer as it stands?

If you're civil and polite, and wind up taking the initial offer after negotiating, nobody rational is going to view you negatively. Just say something like thanks for the offer, it appears that I'm a good fit for the position. But, moving expenses, industry average, local cost of living, etc... Then make your ask and say you look forward to hearing back from them. Nothing fancy. If they completely stonewall you, your BATNA is the original offer, which you're happy with. Win/Win.

# ¿ Mar 10, 2016 03:41

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

intervoid posted:

Two things:
K
First -- thank you thread. You've helped me get an almost 70% increase in my salary over the past two years! One thing I've learned in negotiations with companies employing software engineers is that Paid Time Off is really easy to get more of. I almost always ask for double what they're offering.

Second -- This is semi-related to negotiating, but does anyone have experience dealing with intellectual property agreements? I'm negotiating with a company that has some really broad wording saying essentially anything I ever create or have created on or off company time that may be related to current or future "work products" they own. I'd like to re-word this so I can still safely work on side projects outside of work that may turn a profit. I just started looking over this part of the paperwork for starting this job, so I haven't brought anything up to the company yet. Pointers there?

I agree with Kalenn. They're unlikely to negotiate on this.

IANAL, but keep a log book of the side projects. As long as you can demonstrate that you did all the work on your own time, and that your side project is unrelated to your job, you should be clear. This is the reason for lab notebooks.

Also, keep in mind that suing a former employee for their side project is the nuclear option. It would poison the well with all current employees and kill morale, unless it was a slam-dunk win for company. I'm not saying that companies don't make dumb decisions from time-to-time, but I think the risk here is minimal as long as you're not inventing something that directly competes with the company.

# ¿ Mar 10, 2016 15:18

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# ¿ May 16, 2024 20:31

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Totally TWISTED posted:

Have an agreed upon offer that's 7.5% higher than their initial with a bonus on top of that at year end if I hit certain performance benchmarks. Woot!

Grats. Easiest money you ever made, right?

# ¿ Mar 11, 2016 15:27

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > How to negotiate offers?

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