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I love how Dragon Ball, as a franchise, is so diverse and populated with so many different memorable characters. Characters like Pilaf, Mai, Shuu, Oolong, etc. sharing a world with Freeza, Cell, Dabura, Vegeta, the androids, etc. I like that. Few franchises can have that broad of a range in tone and still work. It's like everyone can have their own Dragon Ball, so to speak. Lighthearted mystical adventure like in early Dragon Ball, martial arts action like in mid to late Dragon Ball, planet-saving epic poo poo like in Dragon Ball Z that just keeps escalating until the entire cosmos is at stake. That's what happens when you start a manga and just make it up as you go along for 10 years.
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Jan 29, 2014 10:54
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The original Dragon Ball definitely has some iconic music. You already listed all of my favs, but one piece of background music I like is this. It's such a great showdown theme and it even gets played a couple of times in DBZ, like when Gohan faces down Cell. I also like Shura-Iro No Senshi, which plays when King Kai is telling Goku about the history of the Saiyans and the Tuffles. While we're on the subject of Bruce Faulconer music, my favs are: Vegeta Gets Bean Mr. Satan's theme, also called "Wrestling Rock with Lead" Gohan's Innocence and of course the Super Saiyan 3 theme Switching gears to Dragon Ball vs DBZ, I have to admit I might like DB a bit more. And the parts of DBZ I like the most are the early stuff, the Saiyan Arc mostly. I think Dragon Ball had better fighting. People still fought primarily on the ground, and while they had mystical powers and superhuman abilities, they were still martial artists. There were different schools, different styles, different techniques. But in post-Freeza DBZ its mostly just flying at jet speed, powering up, throwing really big energy blasts at each other, etc.
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Feb 1, 2014 04:34
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The humans were pretty useless even in Dragon Ball. Goku beat Pilaf, the entire Red Ribbon Army, King Piccolo, and Piccolo Jr., all by himself. Yamcha didn't do poo poo to Pilaf, Krillin got his rear end kicked by General Blue, Tenshinhan got wrecked by Drum. Yajirobi killed one of Piccolo's minions but that's it; he never does anything again. So everyone else embarrassing themselves while Goku gets to look good has been the norm since long before he became a Super Saiyan.
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Feb 3, 2014 02:22
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Fantastic episode! I'm loving the androids, especially No. 16. Nice foreshadowing of Cell, too. "Hey mom, why do you never seem to age?" "Your father won't let me."
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Mar 8, 2014 05:47
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Regarding Freeza Saga vs Cell Saga, and why the Cell Saga kinda sucks by comparison: It helps that the Freeza Saga actually has a plot and narrative. Each of the major characters had a motivation, and their actions moved the story forward. Characters make decisions and actually do things. Its very fast-paced and the situation is constantly changing. I can't even remember how the Cell Saga goes, except vaguely. It sort of meanders and there are lulls where people are just waiting around for something to happen. And this is more nerdy, but I don't like how the androids are stronger than Freeza or Super Saiyans. Freeza was hyped up as being like the ultimate evil bad guy in the universe, and the legendary Super Saiyan was the only thing that could top him. But then they get back to Earth and a couple of teenagers with upgrades just bitch slap them into a mountain. I think it's their character design more than anything else, though. Something about seeing normal-looking humans with normal-looking (for DBZ) street clothes flying around beating up Super Saiyans just seems wrong. Maybe if they wore martial arts-y clothing or weird space armour, it might work better visually.
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Mar 8, 2014 09:57
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bowmore posted:Because if they were weaker than freiza and super Saiyans I'm sure that would work out great story wise. Yes, that's exactly what I meant: that it would've been better if they had just beaten the androids in a single episode and that was it, and definitely not that I wish Toriyama had set up a different sort of villain or anything. I get that Cell would be stronger because he's made from everyone's DNA or whatever. The energy-draining thing that No. 19 and 20 did was pretty neat. I get the feeling that they weren't stronger than Freeza or the Super Saiyans without draining people's energy. Its just weird to me that Dr. Gero takes two random teenagers, put them under the knife, then suddenly they're curbstomping Super Saiyans. Of course, then again, the idea that 17 and 18 are just a couple of random teenagers who were suddenly given this incredible power and are now on a joyride is pretty cool and interesting. Plus seeing Vegeta get slapped around after being such a dick for so long was pretty satisfying. So whatever, I guess. Like I said, it's just me being nerdy. I wasn't trying to make an objective case.
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Mar 8, 2014 10:42
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Nikkolasking posted:He's basically saying the Cell Saga should have ended like the Buu Saga if the Buu Saga ended after the fights with Pui Pui and Yakon. No I'm not, for crying out loud. All I said was that it felt weird to me that some guy could make androids in a bunker that were way stronger than Freeza or the Super Saiyans. It makes sense that Cell would be stronger because he's made from everyone's DNA and whatnot, so he's basically the combination of all of them and has all their powers. But with 17 and 18 it seems more...random, I guess. But it's a nerdy nitpick and I wasn't trying to make an objective case as for why the androids suck or anything. Like I said in my last post, the idea that No. 17 and 18 are just a couple of delinquents that were suddenly granted incredible power is pretty interesting and fun. crankdatbatman posted:Well, first Toriyama did set up a different bad guy with Cell, and second what kind of good storytelling would that be? Cell doesn't appear until later, though. When Trunks first appears and up until Piccolo absorbs Kami, the androids are pretty much THE badguy. I don't know what you mean by "what kind of storytelling would that be?" I think it was pretty obvious I was being sarcastic about the androids getting easily killed in one episode and the saga ending early. I don't feel like writing fanfiction but if the androids had actually turned out to be weaker the entire saga would've played out differently. Or maybe they still could've beaten the good guys, but in a different way. I liked the energy-absorbing thing that 19 and 20 had. Maybe i'm wrong but I get the sense that, without absorbing people's energy, they actually weren't stronger than Freeza or Super Saiyan whoever. But they surprised the good guys and almost beat them. Maybe in an "alternate Android Saga", No. 19 and 20 wouldn't exist and instead it would've been 17 and 18 who had that ability? But like I keep saying it's not that big a deal and I'm sorry I brought it up. One thing I really DO like about the Cell Saga is that Cell starts out as an underdog. I remember someone saying that he acts like Vegeta did in the Freeza Saga: he's weaker so he has to rely on cunning and sneaking around, but manages to keep outsmarting them all. He was probably the smartest villain in the entire series, Dragon Ball included.
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Mar 8, 2014 21:53
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Boo Saga is pretty cool, imo. The only things I'd probably change: -Change Goten's hair so that it doesn't look exactly like Goku's. -Make it so that neither Goten nor Trunks can become Super Saiyans; they can only become a Super Saiyan as Gotenks -Give Piccolo a slightly larger role as a fighter, allow him to make one more good account of himself before the series ends -Change Boo's character so that he doesn't have such insane regeneration powers and he doesn't absorb people. He's too much like Cell in that sense. He's just a rubbery magic monster that turns people into candy and is scarily childlike. But other than that I love the Boo Saga. I like how it brings back a lot of the humor and zany wackiness, since the Cell Saga was so super serial and melodramatic. I also like all of the mystical fantasy elements with the Kaioshin, the allusions to the "demon realm" that Dabura comes from, Babidi's magic, etc.
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Mar 16, 2014 20:57
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I think it would've been better if, instead of fusing with Nail and suddenly getting absurdly powerful, Piccolo had his potential unlocked by Guru somehow. Maybe Guru gives Dende the ability to do that, and Dende unlocks Piccolo's hidden power.
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Mar 24, 2014 00:16
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I have nothing to back this up with, but I've always assumed Piccolo was stronger than Nail before they fused. I'd put Piccolo at roughly the same as Captain Ginyu or a little stronger. Again, no reason, just head canon.
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Mar 24, 2014 18:51
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I also feel the same way about Piccolo. I bet all he really wanted was to kill Goku, and had he succeeded at the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, he probably would've just retired to the wilderness.
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May 8, 2014 23:56
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Kild posted:Yeah even initially Bardock was quoted as caring for his squad. Compared to say Raditz Nappa and Vegeta where they hated on Raditz and Nappa meant nothing to Vegeta. But Raditz is Bardock's son, too. I wonder why he was so evil in comparison? I remember reading a fan theory somewhere that the reason Raditz was so ruthless was because he was over-compensating: he knew he was weak by Saiyan standards so he tried to compensate by being all "Rah rah you're a disgrace to the Saiyans". I'm annoyed that we never saw more Raditz, since he's Goku's brother and all. But I guess that's part of the charm of Dragon Ball: it does unexpected things. It would've been easy and obvious to make Raditz the main bad guy that later forms a rivalry with Goku, or at least a recurring villain. But even so, i'd have liked to see some filler with him and Nappa in Hell.
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May 11, 2014 00:26
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I've never understood why Bojack is so popular. He's got a really boring character design, and what even is his deal? He's a pirate that was sealed inside King Kai's planet, or some poo poo? Zangya and Bujin were more visually interesting.
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May 14, 2014 10:13
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The Faulconer score and the original Japanese music are more or less equal in my eyes. The Japanese stuff is better scored, but in terms of the actual songs, they're both hit and miss.
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May 17, 2014 23:31
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Rock the Dragon was my first exposure to DBZ, too. It's funny to watch it now because now I know where all the clips are from, but back then, I just thought those were from other parts of the series that I hadn't seen yet.
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May 18, 2014 00:50
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SALT CURES HAM posted:While we're talking about oddball poo poo from the early days of anime, I should throw out there that MTV used clips from loving Genocyber for a thing. Holy poo poo, I remember that. There was a bunch of them, too. I remember one where they re-dubbed all of the characters as members of the Jackson family, and Michael Jackson was a little kid. There was another one where you never saw any of the character's faces. I think these aired on MTV. I'm not an anime nerd person; this is the only thread in ADTRW that i post in. But I admit to being really intrigued with anime back in the 90s because it was so mysterious. This was pre-Toonami, before the big anime avalanche that happened in the early 2000s when every freaking series that ever got made was being brought over. There was Sailor Moon, Samurai Pizza Cats, Ronin Warriors, and of course Dragon Ball Z (the "Next Dimension" dub). They were all syndicated and aired at really inconvenient times; I think I remember catching Dragon Ball at 6am Sunday morning. Each series looked different and yet there still seemed to be an "anime style" that they all shared and that made them distinct from the Western stuff I was watching. I noticed that a lot of video games had the same sort of aesthetic: Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy, Zelda: A Link to the Past, Secret of Mana, Street Fighter, and tons more. There was something really neat and crisp about it. Like in DBZ when Raditz first meets Piccolo and is all like "Now it's my turn", and he raises his hand to form a blast, you see these concentric circles start to form around his hand and it just looked neato to me.
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May 20, 2014 07:55
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Goku being the one to save the day is definitely a trend going all the way back to the Red Ribbon arc. All of the other characters are gearing up to help him out, but when they get there he's already mopped up. Kuririn and Yamcha look like doofuses when they fight Uranai Baba's monsters. And then Tenshinhan is completely useless against King Piccolo and doesn't even get to defeat Drum. Finally you have everyone gawking while Goku fights Piccolo Jr.
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May 23, 2014 00:01
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What does Toriyama think of his international fans? Does he even know how popular Dragon Ball is around the world?
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May 24, 2014 05:20
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Lumberjack Bonanza posted:World's Strongest is seriously really good and makes me wonder what all of the movies could have been like if the power creep wasn't so loving absurd. I'm at least a bit biased due to it being my first DBZ movie, though. World's Strongest is definitely one of the better DB movies, along with Dead Zone and Tree of Might. I just really like the first three movies because, as you said, the power creep isn't so insane. Characters still fight mostly on the ground, there's more hand-to-hand styles, there's more unique techniques for each character. But I've also become a little more forgiving of the crazy post-Super Saiyan planet destroying power seen in the later movies and series. Remember that Dragon Ball is based on Journey to the West, with Goku playing the role of Wukong. In JttW, there's gods and demi-gods who can lift entire mountains and move across the entire world with one leap. So going by that, the sort of stuff you see in the Cell and Buu Sagas isn't so out of place. But still, the fights were much better choreographed in Dragon Ball and early DBZ. I like the stretch of anime/manga going from the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokau all the way up to the early part of the Freeza Arc.
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Jun 20, 2014 02:08
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Tree of Might is definitely the worst of the first three films for reasons already stated. I think I remember Tullece was supposed to be a clone or something. I read that on some fansite way back when. Something about him being "cast in the same mold" (that was the wording that I remember reading). I'll stick up for World's Strongest because I like the overall look and design of both the locations and the characters. I like the bio-fighters and Doctor Willow's giant robot form. I like the crazy sci-fi environment that looks more like an alien spaceship than a laboratory. And I love the creepy theme music. One major reason I like the first three films is because they do more stuff with crazy and unique locations. I already mentioned Doctor Willow's super-scifi laboratory, but I also like Garlic Jr's evil palace and I love the idea that Tree of Might takes place in and around a gigantic, world-spanning tree. It's such a cool visual. The later movies don't really do that, except for Fusion Reborn with the crazy floating jelly beans. I wish the main series did more stuff like that.
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Jun 20, 2014 22:55
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Anyone remember a fan-made game called Bid for Power that was in development? And then Funimation or whoever got wind of it and made them change all the characters so that it wasn't Dragon Ball related? I remember one of the characters ended up being some brown alien with pointy ears. edited to add: Found it! Blue Star fucked around with this message at 09:41 on Jun 28, 2014 |
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Jun 28, 2014 09:39
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I think Piccolo was indeed intended to be a straight-up demon. It was when he introduced Kamisama that Akira decided to make them aliens.
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Jul 13, 2014 02:45
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I like to say the Japanese names for some of the characters because they're fun to pronounce. "Kuririn", "Tenshinhan", "Kamisama", "Kaiosama", "Piccolo Daimao", etc. I'm not a purist or anything like that. Dragon Ball/Z is the only anime I've watched with any sort of regularity. I don't own any DVDs or manga. I've been watching the Japanese DBZ on Hulu.
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Jul 14, 2014 00:10
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I wanna see Super Saiyan Raditz and Super Saiyan Nappa. 
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Jul 17, 2014 22:44
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I remember reading that the movies all take place in alternate universes. Some of them can take place in the same universe, too. For example: Movie 1 takes place in a world where Raditz never comes to Earth. Movies 2 and 3 both take place in a world where Goku arrived in time to fight Nappa and Vegeta, and nobody dies. No need to go to Planet Namek. Movie 5 takes place in a world where Goku's Genki-Dama actually killed Freeza. No Super Saiyan transformation, everyone goes back to Earth. Those are the only ones I remember.
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Aug 1, 2014 00:13
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I don't think Yajirobi was all that strong. He killed Cymbal, but wasn't Cymbal a lot weaker than Tambourine? And part of the reason Tambourine killed Krillen was because he got the drop on him, plus Krillen was still tired from the tournament. So Yajirobi killing Cymbal isn't proof of anything except that he's stronger than average. And as for the short fight between Goku and Yajirobi, Goku didn't seem to be going at it all that hard. But when Tambourine showed up, Goku went all out and killed him easy. I doubt Yajirobi could've done that.
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Aug 1, 2014 10:59
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Regarding how DBZ developed as a story: Cell was actually the last serious villain, not Freeza. Which is fitting, when you think about it. Cell is sort of a capstone on all of Goku's previous "serious villains", being a combination of them all: the Red Ribbon Army, Piccolo, the Saiyans, and Freeza. It was the last arc where the heroes needed to get stronger to beat the bad guy. General Tao, Piccolo, the Saiyans, Freeza: all of those kicked Goku's poo poo in the first time he fought them (Freeza is one big fight, but he was definitely winning before Goku became Super Saiyan). Once Cell is done, it's back to pre-Red Ribbon gag manga stuff: the Buu Arc. Not that Buu Arc doesn't have serious stuff, but all of the "I must become more powerful-er" subplots become null, and often played for jokes anyway. Look how goofy Super Saiyan 3 looks. Look at Gotenks' stupid outfit. It's funny.
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Aug 1, 2014 23:52
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The fact that Freeza retroactively becomes a nobody is one of the weaknesses of the series, imo. Freeza was awesome. And then Supreme Kai comes along and is like "Oh, we could all beat him with a single blow". And later still, Beers comes along and it turns out Freeza was his lackey or something?
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Sep 15, 2014 17:46
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I've always thought the multiple Super Saiyan transformations were silly, even as a kid. They seem like a really unimaginative way to continue the series after Goku becomes a Super Saiyan the first time. "Hmmmm, Goku's already reached the pinnacle of power in the universe. What next?" "Uhhh....Super Saiyan 2?"
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Sep 18, 2014 21:54
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drat, I'm as annoyed as I was when Universe 8 Krillin lost to Tapion. Tapion had ONE gimmick, Raichi has ONE gimmick, we already KNOW how their fights are going to go. Tapion's going to summon that monster-thing and the other guy's gonna fly around until he hits Tapion or gets killed. Raichi is going to summon a bunch of ghosts and sic 'em on his opponent. Meanwhile, Krillin had the Kaio-Ken and probably a bunch of other abilities; how would he have done against dudes like Cell, the Super Saiyans, Freeza, the androids, or whoever? He probably would still lose but I still wanted to see how it would go. Same goes for Prince Vegeta. He just became a Super Saiyan 3, for crying out loud. Let's see him fight Majin Buu now! But nope, now we're gonna see Raichi summon some more ghosts. So yeah, dudes-who-are-making-this-fan-manga: way to go with picking the LEAST interesting outcomes for those fights. I'm way more emotionally invested than I should be.
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Oct 18, 2014 04:14
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Cardboard Box A posted:So does Dragonball have the most english language dubs ever? How many English dubs are there? I first got into DBZ back in the 90s with the Ocean "next dimension" dub. Then that ended and Funimation took over with the Bruce Faulconer score. Then a few years later I remember hearing about the Ocean group continuing with their own English dub, and I've seen clips of it. Apparently they use the same scripts. And then there's the one where Piccolo is called Big Green and Tien has a weird voice. And the last one that I know of is the Thai or Indonesian one that has the hilarious voices.
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Nov 6, 2014 22:58
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I'm gonna be a boring nerd and hope that Freeza gets to be a credible threat for at least a portion of the movie. I likes me some Freeza 
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Nov 18, 2014 07:32
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So reading Dragon Ball Multiverse: apparently Bojack and his posse are supersoldiers created to defeat King Cold and the other "frost demons"? I guess that would explain why they're so strong. To be honest, I've always thought it was strange how they're just random aliens who just happen to be way stronger than Freeza. Freeza was supposed to be freakishly strong, and the only things that were stronger than him were legendary Super Saiyans, the Nameless Namekian, cyborgs/androids created by "science", and a genetically-engineered organism combining the traits of aforementioned Super Saiyans, Namekians, and Freeza himself. Apart from that, there are gods and demons like Supreme Kai, Dabura, and Majin Buu, so that makes sense, I guess. But Bojack and his gang kind of break the mold: they really ARE just random dudes who, for some reason, have power levels in the billions (or whatever). They're not gods or anything; just space pirates. I've always thought that was strange. So I guess DBM is trying to explain how they got so strong.
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Nov 26, 2014 22:21
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gently caress trophy 2k14 posted:yeah but then toryiama says that king cold and freiza are basically two special snowflakes Yeah, and what's up with DBM calling them "frost demons"? They're obviously Arcosians  But seriously, i'd like to know about Freeza's race. Yeah they're mutants but they came from somewhere. Also, I'm curious if Freeza could've become stronger if he actually trained.
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Nov 27, 2014 11:19
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Freeza rules. Like I said, I hope they make him a serious threat again. And why not? The heroes can get stronger, who's to say that the villains can't get stronger? Yeah, yeah, "but Freeza doesn't seem like the type to train". Says who? I can easily imagine Freeza saying to himself "If those monkeys can sense ki, then so can I!", and busting his rear end until he gets better ki control. Then he starts training in space for a couple of years. He'd at least surpass any of the androids and Cell's first two forms, just from that alone. Couple all of this with whatever mystical rear end-pulling bullshit that Toriyama can come up with, and BAM, Freeza's now clowning Mr. Boo, Gohan, Vegeta, Goku and Gotenks like it ain't no thing. Oh, and edited to add: I don't see Tenshinhan, Kuririn, or Yamcha beating Freeza at any time. There's no proof that any of them ever surpassed his first form, or even Captain Ginyu. Maybe Tenshinhan did...by the Boo Saga. And maybe then he was only in the low millions. Seriously, those guys are just Earthlings, not Saiyans or Super Saiyans. They didn't train in 100x gravity or the Room of Spirit and Time. Blue Star fucked around with this message at 10:43 on Dec 5, 2014 |
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Dec 5, 2014 10:40
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bowmore posted:New movie looks like Goku and Vegeta are off training with Beerus and the other dude and Freiza touches down while they are away and probably sends his minions to find the Dragon Balls to get his wish, which is probably a massive as gently caress power boost. Yeah but while I'm skeptical of Ten/Krillin/Yamcha being able to beat Freeza, I know Piccolo and No. 18 can beat him. Not to mention Gohan, Goten, Trunks, or Mr. Buu. So Freeza's still going to need a power boost just to get past them all.
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Dec 6, 2014 07:18
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I've never seen DBGT but from the sound of it, I like some of the ideas that it introduced. I like the idea of a Golden Ozaru and an evil Shenron created by bad karma. I like Pilaf making an appearance again. He and his gang just sort of disappeared after the King Piccolo Arc. I'm surprised Toei never gave them cameos in one or two filler episodes of DBZ. They bothered to bring back Mercenary Tao for two episodes in the Cell Arc, after all.
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Dec 17, 2014 02:49
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How strong do you guys think Piccolo was after he used the Room of Spirit and Time? I've always put him as roughly on par with "Super Vegeta". Also, how strong is he during the Buu Arc? In my mind, he's somewhere between where Vegeta/Trunks and Goku were during the Cell Games. He's probably surpassed any individual Cell Junior, but not by much.
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Jan 13, 2015 07:05
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Going back to how many arcs there are, here's how I've always seen it: Dragon Ball: Pilaf Arc, 21st Tenkaichi Budokai Arc, Red Ribbon Army Arc, Uranai Baba Arc, 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai Arc, King Piccolo Arc, and 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai Arc. DBZ: Vegeta Arc, Freeza Arc, Cell Arc, Buu Arc That's it. Maybe the Freeza Arc is split up into the Namek Arc, Ginyu Force Arc, and then Freeza Arc. And the Cell Arc may be split into the Android Arc, Cell Arc, and Cell Games Arc. But there's no drat Raditz Arc or Trunks Arc.
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Feb 6, 2015 10:42
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| # ¿ May 16, 2024 07:14 |
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I've always thought that average Saiyans were stronger than most of Freeza's footsoldiers (the dudes with helmets and guns strapped to their arms). But then again, maybe not. I dunno. As someone else said, the big deal with Saiyans was that a PL of 1000 was considered average and unremarkable. With other races, only a few spectacular individuals could get that strong, but a Saiyan with a PL of 1000 was considered mediocre. And then there were stronger guys like Nappa, King Vegeta, and Vegeta himself, who actually were a lot stronger than most of Freeza's men. The only people as strong or stronger than Vegeta were Kui, Dodoria, Zarbon, the Ginyu Force, Freeza, and King Cold. And this was all without training: adult Saiyans were just sorta naturally at 1000 and above. Yeah they fought a lot and probably sparred with one another, but it's not like they were using gravity chambers or RoSaTs. If they did, the average power level would've gone way up. This doesn't account for zenkais, though. I'm sure there were Saiyans who came back from missions nearly dead and had to be revived. Didn't they get a lot stronger? Or maybe at lower levels, zenkais only give a tiny boost. You have to have a PL of 20,000+ before you start getting huge increases. Vegeta goes from 18,000 to 24,000, and then from that to 30-something-thousand, and then after that he's almost as strong as Freeza in his first form. Maybe if your PL is only at 1000, you only get like a 0.10% increase each time, not some whole number multiple. But then again, maybe most Saiyans WERE getting stronger. More and more Saiyans are coming back from missions and getting revived with PLs in the 2000s or 3000s, so Freeza decides to destroy them.
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Feb 19, 2015 03:20
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