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Interesting that this thread is talking about ridiculous interviews as that just came up in the local facebook gigs group too. I'm pretty sure the ridiculous interview process is a san francisco thing. I went to the end of two in June/July and I think I counted something like 11 touches at one and 13 at the other. I've appreciated the current company I'm interviewing at who is at the check references before making an offer stage just over a week after I started talking with them. Personally, my favorite is a phone screen, a take home project on a mini version of your software, a code review on said project, and a single manager/CTO/CEO interview.
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Aug 4, 2019 00:23
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Also, in actual career advice ask: Has anyone done a masters of engineering management or MBA to better move from IC to manager. Worth it? Easier to land the management jobs? Not any easier to transition from Senior to Management?
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Aug 4, 2019 02:49
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Doh004 posted:Agreed. I made the jump from IC to an EM because I wanted to take on more responsibility, my boss wanted me to have more responsibility and the opportunity presented itself (fair amount of luck). As someone who who manages managers - I can say that most people do not want to do it. If I have someone who expresses interest in people management, I do my best to make it happen. Yeah, that's the theme of the current search. IC at places that are growing and may require fresh Leads/Managers soon. I want that myself, and also want to move into management before I start hitting the software engineering ageism wall in a decade or so. The company that I contract for doesn't want to lose me but keeps dropping the ball when it comes to doing any sort of retention. They've hinted at a leadership group that would give me some EM experience, but no movement in the 2 months since they mentioned it. Somewhat ironically, I have experience as a manager, but it was 6 years ago. Then I made the mistake of going consulting and back to senior-level IC for the next 6 years, which means I lost the immediacy of that experience.
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Aug 4, 2019 15:55
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Keetron posted:When would you say is this wall? I've seen people start reporting it gets bad ~ mid 40's, and past 50 it gets real hard to find a job, even if you've been programming in the latest and greatest all that time.
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Aug 4, 2019 19:58
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the talent deficit posted:my experience is companies are so desperate for managers with technical skills that all you really need is competency and desire to move from ic to manager in tech This hasn't really been my experience for my job search... One company even shot me down because they had a good 500 senior flat and no room for Lead/Managers... Interestingly, I've been a good barometer for hiring freezes. I've now hit 3 of them.
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Aug 5, 2019 04:15
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Guinness posted:It also really really depends on the company, because “team lead” or “engineering manager” can mean so many different things. It’s also often not in and of itself a “promotion” as much as a first step in the management ladder. It’s not unusual for senior ICs get paid more than first level managers, but upper level managers will definitely make more. And herein lies the end goal for me: I want to eventually be VP engineering or CTO or something along those lines, and it seems a lot easier to get there via Lead -> Eng Manager -> Director Eng -> VP Eng/CTO than Senior -> Staff -> Principle -> VP/CTO
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Aug 5, 2019 17:14
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Doh004 posted:Same here. I'm trying to make the jump between Engineering Manager -> Director right now which is an awkward spot. Oh? What are you seeing? The few director listings I've seen are looking for folks with 6+ years IC experience and 3+ management experience.
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Aug 5, 2019 18:51
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Doh004 posted:Back when I was looking several months ago, I was hitting resistance because I didn't have the title. Even though my experiences are at that level, it was a big jump for an org to say "This person is a Director even though they've never been called it". Ah, that makes sense. Making the transition in title requires some buy-in or desperation. Conning your current company to give you a title bump would also help...
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Aug 5, 2019 19:36
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Vulture Culture posted:At my last job I was an engineering manager with a director title. In my current job I'm a director with an EM title. I want to (and largely do currently) do product management. The title treadmill is unwinnable. Just try to solve real problems. Why product management?
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Aug 6, 2019 03:20
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I do think that the hire fast, fire fast mentality should be present more. But the hiring process costs companies so much, I can understand them wanting to be choosy. If you're willing to relocate or are in a hot market, then you'll have offers out of your ears. If I went on the market in Austin, I'm pretty sure I'd have a bidding war on my hands. But I don't like going in to an office. Since I'm remote only and going for very senior level positions, people are being much more careful with their approach apparently. Honestly, more companies should consider a remote-first mentality. You get the same quality of developer, it's less expensive (by my experience, about 25% less than in-office employees), and since you can cast your net nationally, you have a lot more candidates. I'd say the EU countries should consider looking for remote US workers too, but they pay a lot less and would have a harder time finding devs that would work for their wages.
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Aug 6, 2019 17:09
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I mean, I appreciate when a company offers to pay me for an interview project. $250 seems to be a going rate for companies that do a pretty good pre-screen. Most companies are totally OK with you substituting their project with a different one you already have done. This year I did an app early in my looking around and have code-reviewed and demo'ed it for 2 of the 3 other companies that I pursued.
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Aug 6, 2019 17:55
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School of How posted:Not once have I been offered to be paid for my take home. Twice in maybe 6 interviews that over the last 5 years? It's not common and it's not necessary, but it's not bad. School of How posted:Not in my experience. I've asked many times if my github account can act in lieu of a take home or whiteboard, and every time I'm told "No." I didn't say github account. I said project. Saying, "here's my github, it should be good enough" is stupid. Saying, "hey, that looks like a fun little project and I'll have time next week to work on it, but in the meantime, here's a project that I did a couple of months ago that's very similar in function. Let me know if you'd like to review that instead," works. Progressive JPEG posted:I think they just wanted to stop talking to you I think that's the sense that I'm getting so far here too.
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Aug 6, 2019 18:16
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e: ^^ Yes, that's kinda the point. As an interviewer, I don't want to spend hours combing through random dude's collection of half-finished projects and OS forks to find a few useful things. As an interviewee, you should know what projects are worth presenting, and failing that, just do the new one.rotor posted:(3) none of this would be a thing if programmers just had a union/guild/professional certification body like normal people do To change the subject slightly, it would be fascinating to see how something like this could work. There are definitely levels of skill for developers, but how difficult would that be to quantify? There's not exactly an objective, multiple choice test you could study for for programming. Is there a business in there build around subjectively and anonymously assessing developers and assigning them grades as a way to speed through the first 3 stages of an interview process? kayakyakr fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Aug 6, 2019 |
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Aug 6, 2019 19:08
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Careful Drums posted:Yes that's a huge business. There's been several startups in the interviewing space revolving around "get someone to pass a test without ever exposing their identity to the company". interviewing.io is one that comes to mind. We're programmers. Obviously the guild would be controlled by an AI hive mind.
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Aug 6, 2019 19:26
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Guinness posted:to companies that they partner with I think that's where they get it wrong. Ties you in to their partners, not the world at large. Granted, that is a good way to profit (since dev's won't do the certification if they have to pay money). Maybe gamify it? Style a guild around a video game guild, give members quests to gain levels. Fund via angel, sell it to Indeed for $$ after a couple of years as an exit strategy.
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Aug 6, 2019 19:34
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rotor posted:Bar exam for lawyers, doctor residency requirements, certifications for civil engineers, journeyman certs for machinists, none of this is anything new, just pick a model and run with it. I mean, there are certs for programmers. And they're all bullshit. Residency requirements for doctors is more like a formalized system of junior level. Like saying, you're a junior until you have 3 years of experience at a low rate. Doesn't really fix quality. Bar exam is just testing against state laws. While you could probably set up testing for the various languages, programming is not quite as black/white as that. Journeyman certs are just another way to do entry-level. Doesn't fix the quality vs years thing.
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Aug 6, 2019 19:52
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vonnegutt posted:C'mon everybody knows the real way to get a senior engineer position is via word-of-mouth from people you used to work with. I mean, this is a viable strategy that I've seen employed more than once by a close friend and fellow goon.
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Aug 6, 2019 21:33
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Xik posted:I'm pretty critical of the technical job seeking process, especially "homework", but I've never encountered any that could be confused for "real work". The only time I've seen something like this has been when it actually was work, as in you're hired as a contractor and if you do good work you're offered a more permanent position. Few companies do this. My current company has tried it a few times (a quick hire based on skill not fit) and we're about 50/50 as far as people who can be worked with vs people who just piss the client off.
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Aug 6, 2019 21:40
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minato posted:I was looped in to interview a supposed rockstar coder, and I was forewarned by the manager who wanted to hire him that "he was really good, but he could be a little abrasive." That turned out to be true... when I asked my standard "You and another team member differ on how to design a component. How would you resolve that conflict?", he started his response with "Well, that depends on whether the team member is a man or a woman. Because you can sit down and reason with a man." Wow. You sure you didn't just interview School of How? Sinten posted:That's when you say "thanks for your time", usher them out and kill the rest of their rounds. no poo poo.
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Aug 7, 2019 00:16
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buddy, now I get to stare out the window for the rest of the interview.
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Sab669 posted:So changing the topic slightly, if one wasn't in dire need of a [new] job, what are you guys' thoughts on refusing take-home tests specifically? I posted this earlier, but I don't think it's unreasonable to say, "hey, I won't have time to get to this any time soon, can we substitute this thing that I already did that is similar?" When you're casually looking, if they're dead-set on making you do the take home and they can't give you a reason why they aren't interested in looking at some code you already have, then it's also not unreasonable for you to pass based on timing. But also don't be How and point to your entire github history either. Gotta provide a specific project.
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Aug 7, 2019 16:48
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I don't really care because I'm not in need of a job.
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My biggest gripe with take-homes is that so many companies want you to do it greenfield. Even with Rails, which excels at being fast to publish, it takes an hour or two to get a fresh project set up. Especially if it's also a SPA. Best take-home was an already created project and a trello board with a few bugs, a minor feature request, and an "if you have time" major feature request or two. A mid-level dev should be able to get the bugs, minor, and one major request done in 4-6 hours. A senior should take 4-6 hours to clear the board or 3-4 hours to do what the mid-level dev did. The key was that the setup was already done. Otherwise, a big part of the test is how you create your skeleton and how well you can set up webpack.
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Aug 7, 2019 17:43
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Keetron posted:I do only java development and can set up a runnable Spring Boot micro service that responds to an http get request in 10 minutes. I mean, yeah, I can do this too. Would you do this if you were trying to emulate a "real world" project, though? How long to set up a database, put together a few models & relations, get a JS front end rolling?
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Aug 7, 2019 20:30
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Pollyanna posted:I can probably do the same for rails, but...really, who the hell spins up new projects that often that they can get something new spun up immediately? I mean, I've been working with greenfields for the last 2 years, so I feel like I've created more new projects than most...
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Aug 7, 2019 22:04
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So you guys talking about companies falling all over themselves looking for people interested in becoming engineering managers... I seem to have found the 3 companies that don't fall into that category. I guess, that I need to downplay leadership aspirations when applying for IC roles.
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Aug 8, 2019 18:07
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JawnV6 posted:I'd say it's situational on both sides? Some places have a full pipeline of eager folks ready to grow into management, some places have a lot of work and need bodies to do it. On the candidate side, I've had good luck saying "I need mgmt growth potential" and "I want technical work" at different points in my career and narrative. Oh, for sure. I just picked out the "provide mentorship" part of their listings and said that I'm looking for a company that's growing and will be willing to give me a shot at a leadership or manager role down the road. One was too flat (3ish managers, 200 senior developers), the other apparently has a bunch of folks already on the team waiting for the same position to open? Hurts that I'm dead-set on staying remote. At least I'm making it to the end of the interview chains pretty easily, even if I've not gotten an offer yet. Anyway... Any of y'all work for remote companies & want a team lead or engineering manager? 
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Aug 8, 2019 18:27
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MononcQc posted:I guess that depends how you perceive the IC role. The way I've grown to perceive it is that a leadership job as an IC still comes with mentorship, training, and soft skills. It's just that rather than defining the next gen architecture alone, you have to be able to do so while keeping lower-ranking individual contributors involved, and knowing how to communicate the questions you ask yourself and why the answers you give are useful. Well said. I'm already doing that at my current job, but it's well phrased here and I'm going to shamelessly steal some of this when interviewing the next time I'm going for a senior IC role. Most of the EM roles I've been applying to have been 60/40 management/tech type roles, which suits me fine.
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Aug 8, 2019 18:41
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rotor posted:these posts are like a window back in time to an IT service department in 1992 Repository? We all just work from a shared zip file. Continuous Deploy? I mean, I guess I can open up the ftp server and upload the new code at any time. Code Review? Sure, come over to my cubicle and I'll walk you through my changes. Or we could have a company-wide meeting to review my code!
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Aug 8, 2019 23:40
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If remote work is our next subject, I have thoughts... But before we go away from hiring completely, I ran across some job listings for these guys and I'm curious what you think about their hiring process: https://life.taxjar.com/distributed-team-hiring-process/ tldr: they give you an 80 hour contract at an introductory rate. If you're not unemployed, they'll let you work nights/weekends at that. vonnegutt posted:We're testing a deployment strategy where individual git branches get deployed as itty bitty standalone instances so that management can play with stuff that's in-progress. It would be nice to get UX/UI review at the same time as code review. Review apps will rock your world. We use the Heroku version and it makes the feedback cycle 20x tighter and significantly more participatory. Also makes running CD super easy. The only reason for staging to exist is to have something for throwaway data. Otherwise, once the review app is :+1:'ed in both code and UI/UX/QA, you can merge it and go to prod.
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Aug 9, 2019 21:01
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asur posted:That seems great in theory as you actually see the person work and they get to work with everyone, but I would almost certainly not do it unless unemployed. yeah, my question to them is, "how many potentially qualified candidates just don't apply"?
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Aug 10, 2019 02:11
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2nd Rate Poster posted:Here's 29 pages worth of total compensation data from non-senior software engineer employees at google. https://www.levels.fyi/salary/Google/SE/L4/ The average is 258,000 dollars. Yeah, you can hit that total comp surprisingly easily in Austin, SF, NYC, and a few other places if you're willing to go in to the office. Harder to hit it remote and in the middle of nowhere.
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Aug 14, 2019 06:15
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Mega Comrade posted:I definitely feel myself creeping towards the latter. Its hard to stay enthusiastic about programming when you do it 8 hours a day 5 days a week. I'm not starting to dislike my job or anything, but when I get home I find myself wanting to do anything as long as its not programmer related. Ah man, I'm sorry to hear this. I might be in the weird camp where writing code is both job and hobby, so while I enjoy a bunch of other things, I'm perfectly happy working the day job then snuggling up on the couch at night and playing around with my side projects.
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Aug 15, 2019 16:21
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Infinotize posted:You are a hack and a stain on the profession, or at best a pretty lousy troll If troll, it's been very effective, seeing as they've managed to derail the thread, consistently, for 2-3 weeks at this point. OTOH, it's like a good heel in wrestling, as everyone's come together to know that this is the most wrong person on the board.
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Aug 15, 2019 16:42
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rt4 posted:Similar situation here in mid-sized southern US city. Go full remote, you probably won't regret it. I think that the market trend is toward more remote. Digital Ocean's been doing some surveys and has been showing movement in that direction. Virtual offices are the best.
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Aug 15, 2019 17:59
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The Fool posted:Remote is hard for companies that are used to a traditional model of collaboration with people all in the same room/building. Yup. It's hard to transition a company from a single office to fully remote, but if you're already distributed, adding remote employees is not that difficult.
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Aug 15, 2019 19:05
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vonnegutt posted:I've realized that I become functionally braindead for coding at about 4pm every day (when I start around 8am). So I've accepted that spending time at the end of the day trying to learn new stuff is useless. My solution is to front load my day with personal stuff - spend 30-40 minutes first thing in the morning on coding something personal (or more recently, reading) before getting into work stuff. I enjoy it, but mostly I've been digging deeper into work related stuff, nothing like building a project in a different language. This sounds pretty normal. Personally, I get productivity in bursts. I start my day at 9 and get my first big burst at 11AM. I'm still working the rest of the time, it's just that everything seems to get easy about 11. Then another big burst happens right around 4:00. When that one wears off, it's time to quit for the day. The old night owl me would also get one between 10 and 11PM every night, but that time is better spent either sleeping or spending time with my partner. As far as self-learning strategies, I don't have much for you, sorry.
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Aug 16, 2019 15:42
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Careful Drums posted:Wow I thought "build what you wish existed to learn" was a good strat but now I'm questioning that. I mean, as far as How's advice in this thread goes.. it's not his worst idea. To paraphrase, "start a new project that makes uses of new tech". I mean, I'm a 'doer' rather than a 'reader' and I'd rather write a new side project that might have some economic value rather than a hello-world app, so I guess I follow How's advice? Unless I'm giving How far too much credit and his suggestion to learning new things is to build new things.
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Aug 16, 2019 21:18
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Pollyanna posted:I mean, not really. Same lovely codebase, same ill-defined product, same language and framework, same kind if technology. But it’s not like it’s the same problem over and over, if it was I would have automated it away long ago (and I have, for the ones that were). That said, it does feel stale and pointless, mostly because of poor planning and bad product ideas. You just described growing from a junior to a mid/senior developer. Well done!
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Aug 16, 2019 22:55
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See, as soon as How stops posting, this thread goes back to being dead.
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Aug 29, 2019 20:42
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CPColin posted:This is part of the reason I didn't take a vacation by myself last December when I had a week off that my gf didn't; I was afraid I'd just keep going and never come back lol I took a 2 year semi-retirement when I turned 30 where I worked on interesting things, generally enjoyed myself, and lived off what I had saved the previous 6 years. Set me back career-wise, but it was a good period of self-discovery.
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Aug 29, 2019 22:18
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Steve French posted:Who's got two thumbs and is moving to the mountains to work remote in two weeks? been remote 6 years now, but really thinking about a move to the mountains very soon. Downside is that people pay you less working remote, so California is outside my budget. kitten smoothie posted:My big advice for fulltime remote is all about establishing "work time/place" contexts. This is all good stuff. I have the issue that I have only a single great room so I'm at my desk working then I move 10 feet to be "off-work". I hate being closed off in an office, but next house is going to have to have multiple living spaces for working in.
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Sep 9, 2019 05:04
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