Lord Windy posted:

You've been talking about this for awhile. Are you calling the government of Ukraine fascists and/or Nazi's or what? I know you don't speak english well, but could you try to explain your point?

Ferdinand the Bull posted:

Dude, I'm sorry. Sorry the USA is so kewl!

We made:
Electric guitars
Cornbread
Stylish sunglasses

We have:
Mission Accomplished
Rocked the Casbah
Not Had These Colors Run

Sorry, dude, I can't hear you over the sound of my freedom.

Ferdinand the Bull posted:

Actual post:
It's actually quite offensive that you talk so much about the Ukrainians killing Jews. The last thing us Jews need is more Russians trying to save us.
Many Jewish populations in the world are made up of ex-Russians scared of going back.

utjkju posted:

West World and USA tell that Putin supports separatists. And West World and USA demand to end support.

Separatists and some people from Russia tell that Putin don't support separatists. They demand to start support. (http://www.segodnia.ru/content/144103)

This situation is not good.

Ferdinand the Bull posted:

You're a nice enough guy, utjkju, and I don't think we're going to agree on this topic.

It's not my prerogative to tell you what to think, I don't want to end up with each of us shouting each other down.

Anyone hear about the mass grave they unearthed in Donetsk?

quote:

For anyone reading this thread, you may be wondering what exactly the average Russian believes is happening in this conflict. Well, I've been watching their news and political talk shows, and reading their newspapers, so I'm going to tell you.

Maidan was financed and curated by the West. Western Powers funneled money, weapons and other aid to Ukrainian nazis, and encouraged them to go hog wild. Specifically, Ukrainian nazis believe that everything about Ukraine's Soviet past is a terrible thing that must be destroyed or otherwise stamped out, including Ukraine's relations with Russia and the ethnic Russians living in Ukraine. During Maidan, there was ethnic cleansing happening all over the western part of Ukraine. Ukrainian Nazis were killing ethnic Russians. Dragging them out of their homes and executing them right in the street. The Maidan protesters? All nazis, all hundreds of thousands of them.

Yanukovich was a good president, a people's resident, and the evidence of his corruption is completely fabricated by the Western Powers, which in fact currently control all of Ukraine. The current Ukrainian President and his entourage are all Western puppets.

While Maidan is happening and nazis are murdering ethnic Russians in Western Ukraine, the eastern and southern regions of the country start to wake up. Crimean citizens band together to prevent ethnic cleansing of their peninsula. They go and buy uniforms and arms at military surplus stores and take over Crimea. There's then a completely legit and transparent referendum where the vast majority people vote to join Russia. Russia gracefully accepts because it wants to prevent Ukraine from ethnically cleansing Crimea.

Meanwhile, there's a similar movement in eastern Ukraine. Patriots band together and also source uniforms, guns, tanks and take over territory to make sure they don't get ethnically cleansed by the tide of Ukrainian nazis sweeping closer and closer. At this point there's the Ukrainian army, who are fighting the eastern patriots. The Ukrainian army has no regard for civilian casualties and fires into civilians if it serves them to, and uses human shields. Ukrainian soldiers rape their female prisoners, torture and execute the captured patriots, confiscate people's property on a whim, and so on, so fourth. The army is followed by nazi squads. These nazi squads are ethnically cleansing the area the Ukrainian army conquers. Probably the most evil thing the Ukrainians do during their campaign is crucifying a little Russian boy on a wooden plank. A teary eyed refugee tells this story on the news, barely holding back her sobbing. The Ukrainian army is also firing over the border into Russian territory using artillery. There have been many casualties on the Russian side, but Russia is not firing back, not responding to the provocations.

There are several versions of what happened to the Malaysian Airlines plane. One is Ukrainian army trying to shoot down Putin's plane but getting the wrong plane. Another is Ukrainians shooting it down to frame Russia and the plucky separatists. Whatever actually happened, it was the Western powers that orchestrated the whole thing. There's no way the separatists could have shot it down because they either didn't have any BUKs or because there was nothing to gain by shooting a passenger liner down or because they couldn't have shot it down because it had some kind of device identifying it as a non-military plane and therefore the BUK wouldn't have been able to lock on it in the first place.

All of the evidence that Ukraine, USA and EU bring forward of Russia destabilizing Ukraine, funneling weapons, people, money into the country, and basically of any Russian involvement is a complete and total fabrication on the part of the Western Powers and their puppet Ukrainian state.

At this point Ukraine is a basically a a roving horde of bloodthirsty nazis controlled by the President and his entourage, who are in turn controlled by the Western Powers. Ultimately, the West wants to destroy Russia. But to legitimize their actions, the West wants to make it seem like Russia is the aggressor. So they hope to use the ethnic cleansing and the attacks on Russian territory to bait Russia into trying to save the ethnic Russian population of Ukraine. Once Russian troops cross the border into Ukraine to prevent this genocide, the West will have their casus belli to attack and destroy Russia. The current sanctions are part of the grand strategy to weaken and ultimately destroy Russia, which is currently the last bastion of freedom and democracy and justice left in the world. This is why the decadent/pro-gay/nazi West needs to wipe it off the map.

This is what the the average Russian believes is happening right now.

Thanks for reading.

Present posted:

words

Ferdinand the Bull posted:

Earwicker posted:

Maybe I'm missing something but if Russia isn't supporting the separatists then why are the seperatists led by people like Igor Girkin and Alexander Borodai, who are Russian citizens from Moscow? Or did the western media invent these people?

utjkju posted:

Girkin, Boroday, Strelkov are real people. I wrote in this thread about connection between people from Russia and people from East Ukraina.
Government of Russia did not send these people in Ukraine. Support separatists by Girkin, Boroday, Strelkov is wish by only Girkin, Boroday, Strelkov.
For example,real man from Australia (Simeon Boykov) militates in part of separatists. Australia is supporting the separatists?

utjkju posted:

Ok. Many people from Germany and other country tell about fascism in Ukraina. I think that It is very important.

utjkju posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qF6XosFM3Ng
Andreas Popp @ Monday Demonstration ENGLISH SUBTITLES

Earwicker posted:

Borodai is not just a random militia member, he's the prime minister of the declared independent state of Donetsk. Girkin is also in a leadership position, and on top of that he has admitted to having been an FSB officer for almost 20 years and retired very recently.

I'm not familiar with Boykov, but if someone with a 20 year career in the Australian intelligence service suddenly popped up as a military leader or prime minister in a secessionist part of Ukraine, yes I think it would be reasonable to suspect Australia of supporting them.

edit: I found the story on Boykov and he's a random Australian of Cossack descent who went over there to be a soldier, and he has no ties to Australia's government. That's not exactly comparable to becoming the prime minister of a seceding republic or a military commander of one of the main separatist factions, which is what Borodai and Girkin are doing.

Duzzy Funlop posted:

I cannot speak for other countries, but I can tell you that no, many people from Germany do not tell about facism in Ukraina. You've linked several videos about small-time demonstrations here, mostly from the recent past, all with basically the same SHEEPLE!!-message and a decent helping of , but this simply isn't representative of what the average german person thinks, especially not with the current conflict in mind.

Keep in mind that I'm not saying that germans don't know about Svoboda holding seats in the government, this is absolutely something that was reported on in the past (despite most of the -videos tell you that the oppressive mainstream media don't want you to know this) with regard to instability in Ukraine. In general, the prospect of fascists or hardline-nationalists gaining power in the governments of other countries simply isn't something that's omitted in german media.

The reason that noone is talking about Svoboda NOW has nothing to do with supervillain-controlled massmedia feeding you lies, it's the fact that when an airliner gets knocked out of the sky by an anti-aircraft missile, nobody is reacting with "Well, Ukraine does have fascist members of Svoboda in their government. Russia was right, Ukraine was wrong, end of story.".


I've done you the courtesy of sitting through 24 minutes of this and while I hadn't previously heard about Andreas Popp outside of his talks about the global financial crisis, this speech is basically nothing but platitudes, tinfoil-hat garbage and generic OPEN YOUR EYES, TURN OFF YOUR TV, UNPLUG YOURSELVES FROM THE MATRIX (he literally says that last part). He's absolutely correct in mentioning that there's corruption, conflict-of-interest and pressure in journalism/media, but then he goes off the deep end in saying that it's all a conspiracy and that only him and his enlightened followers that have done away with the lies fed to them by their former parties are able to see the truth.

And his solution is for everyone to turn off the TV for a month and not vote anymore.

utjkju posted:

If you from Germany you know about speech of Gregor Gizi?
What you can say about it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLZ3gYLDOqU

utjkju posted:

In Russia there are many people who work in FSB. It is normal.

Earwicker posted:

So are you telling me that, if an American citizen showed up as the military leader of a group of separatist rebels in, say, Panama and this American had been a CIA agent for 20 years, you wouldn't suspect the US of involvement? After all, lots of people work for the CIA and most of them don't personally know Obama.

Earwicker posted:

So are you telling me that, if an American citizen showed up as the military leader of a group of separatist rebels in, say, Panama and this American had been a CIA agent for 20 years, you wouldn't suspect the US of involvement? After all, lots of people work for the CIA and most of them don't personally know Obama.

Duzzy Funlop posted:

Bunch of points he mentions:

• Putin's actions are condemnable, but you can't condemn his actions without also mentioning the EU and NATO's ill-advised course of action versus Ukraine and the many fuckups since 1990
  
• Russia intervening in Crimea was contrary to international law, but we don't get to point fingers because NATO's intervention in Kosovo 1999 was contrary to international law as well
  
• Germany in particular doesn't get to point fingers because it decided to "defend its interests in the Hindu Kush mountains (as germans call it)" and all Russia is doing is defend its interests in Crimea
  
• Janukovic's ouster was technically okay because a proper majority of the country said so, but since the vote fell a few percentage points short of 75%, it wasn't constitutionally "okay" and that's what Putin is invoking as grounds for action
  
• Germany has neglected its responsibilities to strenghten relationships with other OSCE nations in the past (like Russia and Ukraine) and this needs to be adressed
  
• Germany shouldn't negotiate with the Ukrainian government because there are three literal fascists in it
  
• Why were only Janukovic's accounts frozen and not those of several Oligarchs implicit in wrongdoing?
  
• The conflict needs to be resolved by including Russia in the discussion, not by excluding it
  

While some of his points stand to reason, the majority of his speech is basically "Yeah, Russia is doing a naughty, but chill out, NATO also did a naughty in the past", which isn't exactly a valid point in an argument over how to fix a conflict. Comparing Crimea to Kosovo is also pretty dumb, but this seems to be a popular comparison among the current talking points.

You need to keep in mind that this speech is from early march, so it's pretty misleading by whichever movements are currently mass-translating pro-russian speeches by german politicians/comedians/etc. to include it in the current argument and go "SEE? GERMANY IS ON OUR SIDE."

RFC2324 posted:

Wait, I thought Russia was supposed to be a democratic, capitalist nation now.

utjkju posted:

Yes. I have friends of people from FSB. Is i agent of Putin? Or Are my friends agent of Putin?)

Earwicker posted:

If your friends are working for the FSB then yes they are agents of the Russian state, just like someone who works for the CIA is an agent of the American state. If someone who works for an intelligence agency shows up leading a group of rebels in a foreign country, it is reasonable to suspect that the government of their nation of origin and/or its intelligence agencies may be involved in that rebellion. Again I am not talking about random low level soldiers, I'm talking about senior leadership.

utjkju posted:

You know what is FSB? FSB - The federal service of safety.
http://www.fsb.ru/fsb/structure.htm - FSB of Russia.

utjkju posted:

I show other opinions. I know opinion by Merkel.

quote:

Only facts:
Now:
History:

Jaramin posted:

If a member of MI6 showed up in India leading a movement for the reintegration of all or part of India into the British Empire, the international community would rightly identify his status as a member of Britain's intelligence agencies as suspicious.

Earwicker posted:

Yes, exactly. Which means they are quite clearly connected with the Russian government. No it doesn't mean they are all personal buddies with Putin, but it does generally mean that when a Russian citizen with a 20 year career in Russia's security agency shows up leading a group of Pro-Russian rebels in Ukraine, it's entirely reasonable to suspect Russian involvement. Especially since not only him, but also the prime minister of the self-declared independent Donetsk region is also a Russian citizen from Moscow.

Duzzy Funlop posted:

Listen, I've been perfectly okay with giving you some leeway over the whole language-barrier issue, but if the entirety of your response is going to be an innocent "Yeah, but how about XYZ", then this isn't exactly a discussion that's going anywhere.

I do not presume to know anything about the perception of this issue in Russia so I'm not going to go out of my way to tell russians how they as a people feel about it. You could try to reciprocate and stop attempting to illustrate how the germans as a people feel about any given subject.


Once more, I'm going to forego what I think you might be inferring and simply ask you what it is you're inferring with this, because I generally have a predetermined response to the whole Ermaechtigungsgesetze-comparison...at least in the majority of the cases I've encountered it so far.

utjkju posted:

You think that only your opinion is correct? I show vidio of people from Germany. What is bad?
I understood your opinion, but there are other opinions. What is bad?
My husband have sister in Germany. Why i can not show her opinion? I have friends from Czech Republic and Poland. Why i can not show opinions of they?

Ferdinand the Bull posted:

Credibility is important.

Do you have any sources other than blogs, Russia Today, or 'a guy I know in Germany'?
I want to agree with you. I know you want us to agree with you. But first you have to actually try and understand our viewpoint on the matter.
This is not a personal attack. We want actual facts, not fringe accounts and testimony.

jimma posted:

Three questions:

- Is Russia great, or is Russia really, really great and horribly persecuted by Western fascists?

- Are west-Ukrainians horrible fascists, or are they horrible fascists who are also Nazis and are supported by the lies of the fascist Western media?

- Are you Vladimir Putin?

utjkju posted:

Yes, I am Vladimir Putin.)