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Both sides, obviously, have obfuscated the truth to some degree. The fate of who controls the country is at stake, and the leaders said to be representing the Western Ukrainian and Eastern Ukrainians will stop at nothing to appear in the right. We in the West were appalled at the old government's corruption, and Russia's meddling in a sovereign nations affairs. Those in the East see the Western Ukrainian leadership as a bunch of thugs who beat as bludgeoned their way to power. I think it's fair to say that this is the underlying narrative that both the Russian and "first-world" media choose to present. To me, there are a few points of interest. 1) Obviously, the people of Kiev and surrounding areas overwhelmingly did not support the last president. 1) What's iffy is whether the Eastern Ukrainians supported the last president as a way to stick it to the agenda they perceived the Westerner's to have, or if they just don't feel they had a lot of input in who got into power. A) we actually saw that the people if Crimea didn't stay within the Ukraine long enough to even attempt to vote for a new president. As well, we saw that the rebels blocked and used intimidation to stop the rebel held areas from voting 3) I'm not even sure how these politicians who were up for election in Ukraine were chosen. They seem to very well be the people who profited off the last regime. Can they be trusted? 4) it's shameful how Russia interfered in another sovereign country's affairs. There argument for protecting ethnic Russians is ridiculous. It's like England sending in the troops to the US to protect the ethnic English after the event of an uprising.
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Jul 31, 2014 05:56
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utjkju posted:You forget about Krym referendum. The validity of a referendum conducted with foreign troops and Cossacks is questionable. I'm not doubting that there is strong support for Russia in Crimea. I am doubting, as I doubted the Ukrainian election as well, the legitimacy of the referendum process. It's documented that large swaths of the Crimean population, such a the Tatars, boycotted it. As well, an non-partisan international regulatory committee did not oversee the process.
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Jul 31, 2014 06:46
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utjkju posted:Who talks about foreign troops and Cossacks in Crym? Mass-media of USA? There are plenty of images, videos, eyewitness accounts, what have you. It happened it's well-documented, from multiple sources, including the US media.
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Jul 31, 2014 06:58
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I really don't understand why you're getting upset at us for stating empirical evidence. I love Russian culture, I'm re reading The Brothers Karamazov right now, I have nothing to gain from making Russia look bad. I know it is difficult to look at your country objectively, but that's what real patriots do.
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Jul 31, 2014 12:44
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utjkju posted:I think, that you don't know very good Russian culture. How you can love Russian culture, if you don't know it? I don't answer about CNN because I don't care about CNN. Most everyone knows that they're a bunch of sensationalist crap slingers that report topics and not facts. Listen don't turn this into a personal attack. I know a bit about Russia and the Ukraine. Lots of my family originate from that area. I'm a Slavic Jew so I don't know if most Russians would agree that I'm myself ethnically Russian. But it doesn't matter. I know I like Russia. That's all I'll say about that.
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Jul 31, 2014 13:29
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utjkju posted:Nazis and stuff Nazi or Fascist? This accusation of the government in Kiev being Nazis confuses me, because I'm pretty sure the Nazis hosed over (and hated) the Ukrainians as much as the Russians. If you're saying that I as a Jew should be wary of the Nazis, then shouldn't I as a Jew be wary of the Soviets? History under both governments was pretty messed up for the Jews. Did you hear about the Jews in a rebel-held city being told to register themselves? http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/18/world/europe/efforts-to-register-jews-in-ukraine-are-denounced-and-denied.html It could very well be a hoax, but the mere fact that this exists, hoax or not, makes me very anxious. To me, there's this sense that Jews in Ukraine are being used as pawns for political gain. Maidan are called Nazis by the rebels, rebels are trying to round up the Jews according to Maidan. WTF Of course I haven't forgotten about the Holocaust. I haven't forgotten about the pogroms either. I don't see why my ethnicity should have anything to do with this.
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Jul 31, 2014 14:27
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Ensign Expendable posted:I'm neck-deep in RuNet. I don't see hatred towards the Ukrainians. I see hatred towards Western pawns and corrupt oligarchs, but not the common people. The most damning evidence for fascism isn't the Ukrainization, it's the people waving nazi flags, displaying nazi symbols, and worshipping war criminals. There's no doubt that there are Fascists fighting on the side of the Ukrainians. There's also no doubt that Russia has per capita the most Neo-Nazis in the world. The Fascists on both sides aren't going anywhere anytime soon. To me, the Ukrainians are trying to re-establish a national identity by actively separating themselves from Russian influence. This is nationalism. Nationalism is dumb. The Russians aren't doing themselves a favor by meddling in a neighboring nation's affairs. If there was a real threat, they should've let some bad stuff happen, then gone in. Going in preemptively removes all credibility from the Russians in the eyes of the watching world.
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Jul 31, 2014 14:47
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Valiantman posted:Utjkju, I like the fact that you've started the thread and your posts are what makes me come back to check this out from time to time. Could you please keep posting in English? I can't Cyrillic letters, so I have no idea what you are saying. I know your English isn't the best but at least I could understand you well enough. Yeah utjkju, your opinion is really valuable to us all, and it would reach a way wider audience here if you posted in English. I don't mind the Russian, since you best communicate in it, as I do in English. So feel free to write your thoughts out in Russian, and don't be afraid to attempt it in English as well.
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Jul 31, 2014 16:25
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utjkju posted:What do you think: if Gitler had victory, that this was better? How could you excuse this?
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Jul 31, 2014 18:15
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Dude, I'm sorry. Sorry the USA is so kewl! We made: Electric guitars Cornbread Stylish sunglasses We have: Mission Accomplished Rocked the Casbah Not Had These Colors Run Sorry, dude, I can't hear you over the sound of my freedom.
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Aug 1, 2014 12:41
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Ferdinand the Bull posted:Dude, I'm sorry. Sorry the USA is so kewl! Actual post: It's actually quite offensive that you talk so much about the Ukrainians killing Jews. The last thing us Jews need is more Russians trying to save us. Many Jewish populations in the world are made up of ex-Russians scared of going back.
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Aug 1, 2014 12:44
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You're a nice enough guy, utjkju, and I don't think we're going to agree on this topic. It's not my prerogative to tell you what to think, I don't want to end up with each of us shouting each other down. Anyone hear about the mass grave they unearthed in Donetsk?
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Aug 1, 2014 15:07
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Present posted:words 
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Aug 1, 2014 19:33
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Earwicker posted:So are you telling me that, if an American citizen showed up as the military leader of a group of separatist rebels in, say, Panama and this American had been a CIA agent for 20 years, you wouldn't suspect the US of involvement? After all, lots of people work for the CIA and most of them don't personally know Obama. Brilliant point.
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Aug 2, 2014 17:54
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utjkju posted:You think that only your opinion is correct? I show vidio of people from Germany. What is bad? Credibility is important. Do you have any sources other than blogs, Russia Today, or 'a guy I know in Germany'? I want to agree with you. I know you want us to agree with you. But first you have to actually try and understand our viewpoint on the matter. This is not a personal attack. We want actual facts, not fringe accounts and testimony.
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Aug 3, 2014 05:25
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Forgall posted:
Quoted for truth. Basically, that the German mass execution of Jews wouldn't have happened without the Russian's example of Anti-Semitism and pogroms. It's crass to suggest the Russians are fighting against Nazis when the Soviets represented everything reprehensible about the Nazis. Ferdinand the Bull fucked around with this message at 15:57 on Aug 12, 2014 |
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Aug 12, 2014 13:46
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Русские были фашистами еще
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Forgall posted:That was way before USSR. Russia/ Soviet Doesn't mean anything other than I'm mixing up terms.
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Aug 12, 2014 15:56
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