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mobby_6kl posted:Tymoshenko was trying awfully hard to make it about herself with yesterday's speech, but hopefully people didn't really buy that. What do you think the odds are that she will be successful in regaining power? Is there a substantial portion of the protesters who would be happy to have her back? It seems like that would be a bitter disappointment for a lot of Ukrainians who have been hoping for fundamental change. It just seems so transparently opportunistic for her to show up and essentially declare, "I'm just like you! I want the exact same things that you want!"
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Feb 23, 2014 14:28
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| # ¿ May 22, 2024 02:38 |
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Although I am reluctant to share a link to the Daily Mail, these photos of Yanukovich's estate are just incredible.
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Feb 23, 2014 16:13
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I guess I shouldn't be amazed, since it's one of the bedrock elements of the human psyche (including my own), but I'm still gobsmacked whenever I'm presented with a stark example of people willfully rejecting reality and substituting their own version based on team/tribal/ethnic/political loyalty. I'm talking about you, utjkju, and your wholehearted, skepticism-free endorsement of the Kremlin's talking points. Has it not occurred to you that your friends in Crimea might be giving you a distorted version of reality, because they are currently caught up in pro-Russian, anti-Ukrainian fervor? It has nothing to do with "trusting" them. I do not doubt that your friends would not lie to you. What I doubt is whether they are actually able to see the truth, much less admit it to themselves or to others, though the dense fog of nationalist passions that is swirling around these events. Note that, as I indicated in my first paragraph above, this is not a condemnation of Russia (including the Crimeans who consider themselves Russians). This is a universal human behavior -- just look at the incredibly irrational, reality-denying ways in which Americans reacted to 9/11. But I believe that, in order for this to become a more peaceful, less unjust world, all of us must recognize our strong tendency to do this and try to behave differently. One key step towards this, I think, is the practice of empathy. Ask yourself how you would feel about all of this if you were ethnically & linguistically Ukrainian (one of the non-fascist ones, perhaps) living in Kiev. It might look like this: the country was ruled by a Russian-speaking corrupto-crat who looted the treasury to (among other things) build his own little Versailles, and did Putin's bidding on many important issues. After he was ousted in late February (by a popular uprising which forced him to flee Kiev, after which in the Ukrainian parliament voted to officially remove him from power), the Kremlin claimed (on exceedingly thin evidence) that ethnic Russians in Ukraine were in physical danger, and with absurdly awkward attempts at concealing their actions, deployed troops to Crimea to help facilitate their plan to annex it. I can actually understand the ethnic-Russian Ukrainian's fears, and although I'm not nationalistic myself, I understand how emotionally powerful it can be. I hope that you can similarly understand how ethnic Ukrainians might be upset and frightened by the Kremlin's recent actions.
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Mar 7, 2014 16:36
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utjkju posted:What Kremlin's recent actions you mean? All of their actions in relation to the Ukrainian revolution are probably seen as hostile and threatening by ethnic Ukrainians, but especially the Russian parliament's authorization of military invasion after Yanukovych's fall, and the subsequent military occupation of Crimea.
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Mar 7, 2014 17:59
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The Capitulator posted:Except there's no reason to believe the uprising was truly 'popular' (i.e. there's a large silent majority especially in the East that disagrees with this) This is true -- but it's also true that the uprising was immensely popular in the western, ethnically/linguistically-Ukrainian part of Ukraine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan#Public_opinion_about_Euromaidan
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Mar 7, 2014 18:03
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The Capitulator posted:I would like to highlight the last (latest) poll mentioned in your link: Those are pretty much the same numbers that were reported in the month-earlier poll described just above that, so it doesn't appear that opinion changed at all between the two. The point is that the revolution was immensely popular where it occurred -- in Kiev, and in the rest of the majority-ethnic-Ukrainian part of the country. It was simultaneously immensely unpopular in the ethnic-Russian part of the country. This stark division appears to be at the root of most of Ukraine's problems.
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Mar 7, 2014 19:00
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utjkju posted:What do you think about news: The spin that is being put on this by your sources is amusing; it's kind of, "See? Rabble and extremists are in charge! They want to be the dictators of Ukraine!" Here's a more sympathetic view. Money quote: "Moscow argues that the Ukrainian protests have been taken over by extremists. But on the Maidan, there were strong fears that the revolution was being sold out. Activists were unhappy with the roster of veteran politicians being mentioned for top posts in a new government." This jibes with the picture that Tankus has painted of the revolution: like most recent revolutionary movements, from the Arab Spring to OWS, it's a moment when people perceive that fundamental change for the better in governance and society might be possible. The protesters' desire to not see the same old faces, associated with oligarchy and corruption, in the new government makes sense in that context.
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Mar 8, 2014 15:43
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Mightypeon posted:(...) This is very interesting -- can you expand on what "Finlandization" means in this context? What exactly has Russia proposed that would fall under that heading?
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Mar 8, 2014 19:21
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utjkju posted:Do it violate voting power (right to vote) of people from other parts of Ukrain, when the New government in Kiev was(or will be) organized? That would depend on whether there are going to be new parliamentary elections within a reasonable time frame, which would be the polite and customary thing to do after a revolution. There are certain barriers to doing this anytime soon, though, such as the fact that part of the country is under military occupation by, and is about to be absorbed by, Russia. And even after that occurs, it seems unlikely that an election would result in a government that both Western and Eastern Ukrainians would find acceptable. For that to happen, both halves of the country would have to trust each other enough to be willing to share power, and sadly, it doesn't seem like that's where things are headed at the moment.
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Mar 9, 2014 05:48
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utjkju posted:Is The New government in Kiev legal, if most people can not vote? All revolutions are illegal. Does that mean they are all illegitimate?
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Mar 9, 2014 13:17
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Welcome back, Tankus!Tankus posted:Because while around 30% of people in Crimea want to join Russia (which is a large amount) there are even more opposed. Namely the Tatars and ethnic Ukrainians there, of where there are large amounts. I suspect that the outcome of the upcoming referendum in Crimea is predetermined ... and that Russia and the ethnic-Russian Crimeans (and a few people in this thread) will consider it to have been free, fair, and legitimate. Meanwhile, do you have any insight into what might happen in Eastern Ukraine? Will they follow Crimea's lead, or seek autonomy, or decide to remain in Ukraine and share power in Kiev? Interestingly, one unintended consequence of the upcoming Crimean secession is that Ukraine's ethnic-Russian population will drop by about a million people, which means (I presume) that Eastern Ukraine's political position within any Ukrainian national government will be weakened.
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Mar 9, 2014 14:09
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utjkju posted:What is Ukraine, which chose interim government? You are totally stuck on this dumb, legalistic argument. "No one voted for the interim government!" No poo poo: that's how a revolution works. As a practical matter, a post-revolutionary interim government can only be legitimized after the fact, not before. Have you ever heard of a revolution where the government was overthrown in the morning, and then an election for a new government was held in the afternoon?
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Mar 10, 2014 12:47
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utjkju posted:Do you live in Russia? I don't, but I hear that every time there's been a revolution there, the resulting interim governments have failed to validate their existence by holding same-day national elections. Therefore the only legitimate government of Russia consists of the direct descendants of Ivan the Terrible, who should be located and return to Moscow at once to claim their birthright. On a more serious note, I was just reading about the recent violence in Sevastopol and Donetsk, and I sincerely hope that cooler heads will soon prevail. It seems like Klitschko is the odds-on favorite to win the Presidency at the May 25th election. I gather that his major perceived downside is his "lack of experience", but given the post-revolutionary political climate, that's probably actually a big plus. Also, I gather that his background is not ethnic-Ukrainian, which could mean that he could garner some support from ethnic-Russian Ukrainians, perhaps? Also he apparently has some Jewish ancestry, which may help neutralize the "Western Ukraine is now controlled by Nazis" talking point. Tankus and Mightypeon, can you shed any light on the current tense situation, and whether Klitchko's rise presents any hope for a peaceful resolution?
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Mar 10, 2014 18:29
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Tankus posted:I think he is currently second in the poles but is maintaining popularity, however a situation so dynamic as this means that anything is possible. Oh, okay -- I was looking at the pre-revolution poll results in Wikipedia, which showed Klitchko as the most popular opposition leader -- but the post-revolution polls show Poroshenko ahead. Do you have a preferred candidate?
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Mar 10, 2014 22:45
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Tankus posted:Since this thread is actually giving me a headache and very little actual information is changing anyones opinion (Ensign Expendable i do honestly appreciate your postings, even if they are counter to my ideas). To lighten the mood ill post a picture of something i saw in a restaurant today that everyone should get some entertainment from. Though humans may separate themselves from one another via politics and nationalism, at least we can all agree on a good dick joke. :-)
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Mar 11, 2014 20:49
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Ensign Expendable posted:A soldier of the Crimean self-defense force is also dead and two are wounded. I guess BBC didn't care enough to report that. Further proof of the pernicious worldwide anti-Russian conspiracy! In this current climate of relentless persecution, Putin is wholly justified in annexing various places, in self-defense.
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Mar 18, 2014 20:19
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Three questions: - Is Russia great, or is Russia really, really great and horribly persecuted by Western fascists? - Are west-Ukrainians horrible fascists, or are they horrible fascists who are also Nazis and are supported by the lies of the fascist Western media? - Are you Vladimir Putin?
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Aug 3, 2014 15:00
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utjkju posted:Yes, I am Vladimir Putin.) Are you currently shirtless and/or riding a horse?
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Aug 3, 2014 16:06
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| # ¿ May 22, 2024 02:38 |
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Earwicker posted:Can I borrow a T-64? Or a Buk missile system? Oh wait, never mind, you don't loan those out.
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Aug 3, 2014 16:46
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