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Tatum Girlparts posted:Why are there dismissive quotes around education when the issue is mainly 'don't rape girls and set them on fire or cut their clits off'? Can we not say there are objectively wrong views to hold and they should be educated away? The changes and education is going to have to be pushed from within Indian society. I think there are reasons to be optimistic that this will happen, though it may not be as rapid as some hope. I don't think Westerners have too much to to contribute except funding for Indian NGOs and government efforts that are trying to deal with these issues.
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Apr 15, 2014 01:02
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Thundercracker posted:I really don't know why people disagree with me that "Do Nothing" is the best idea when half the ideas in this thread amount to "Bring back the British" and the other half is "Cull the unwashed herd" I feel like, terrible posts aside, this is a weird way to interpret this thread. You could easily re-phrase the question as "What should India do to speed up its development?" and get the same sorts of answers.
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Apr 15, 2014 01:02
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illrepute posted:I don't really get why people are going after a dude for putting quotation marks around "Education" when their own posts are bookended by ones suggesting that a little war to destroy some thirty percent of the Indian population might be a good solution to go for. Yea that other guy's a fuckin moron but there's no real discussion to be had with that kind of dude. I can ask a question about quotes and probably get a non-insane answer, but yea if I ask the dude why he thinks a little war is good for the poors I don't really think I'm going to get an answer that isn't stupid/crazy. edit: see? I got an answer that reads like a human being who doesn't live in the 19th century responded. New Division posted:The changes and education is going to have to be pushed from within Indian society. I think there are reasons to be optimistic that this will happen, though it may not be as rapid as some hope. I think there are very few people saying the only option here is to colonize them again, but the fact is the Indian government and general culture is super resistant to these efforts. I mean, people keep saying we should just support the right parties and all but the socialist party that controls one of the biggest chunks of populated land just said 'eh death penalty for rapists is no good, a lot of women are lairs you know'. There are very few efforts within the place to change things. sexpig by night fucked around with this message at 01:06 on Apr 15, 2014 |
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Apr 15, 2014 01:03
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Fallom posted:The Western powers themselves are a pretty solid example of a group of countries that educated their people past the point of gang raping the village witch and incinerating her in the backyard of the police station.  Pictured: Western men who have been educated out of barbarism by embracing the Western principles of Progress and Reason
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Apr 15, 2014 01:04
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Considering that the OP is arguing that the impetus for change will come externally, I don't see why it's weird to interpret the thread as Colonialism 2.0OwlBot 2000 posted:I'm not proposing any kind of invasion of India, just strong guidance from other countries on key issues backed by the threat of sanctions. Is that colonialism? Of course, but if it's in connection to women's rights issues, poverty reduction, or public health I'm all for it.
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Apr 15, 2014 01:05
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Yeah, but that's obviously a silly idea (sanctions!), so I'm just surprised people haven't moved past it.
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Apr 15, 2014 01:06
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Yea that other guy's a fuckin moron but there's no real discussion to be had with that kind of dude. I can ask a question about quotes and probably get a non-insane answer, but yea if I ask the dude why he thinks a little war is good for the poors I don't really think I'm going to get an answer that isn't stupid/crazy. You could just ask: It isn't good for them. It will be good for those that come after them. Smaller workforce means a tighter economy. Wartime economy means more jobs, including manufacturing sector. Consumption of raw materials means importing resources from other countries and increasing international trade relations. All of these are good for India. Its super poo poo to say people will die. People die every day. The question is: If people die today to make things better tomorrow, is that better than people dieing today for tomorrow to not be better? Because right now, that is what is happening. Change is too slow and ponderous in India to see serious movement. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 15, 2014 01:07
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shrike82 posted:Considering that the OP is arguing that the impetus for change will come externally, I don't see why it's weird to interpret the thread as Colonialism 2.0 Do you believe outside NGOs are colonial powers?
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Apr 15, 2014 01:07
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Do you believe outside NGOs are colonial powers? If you can't differentiate between an NGO holding educational classes on contraceptives and a foreign government imposing sanctions... Look at the can of worms that Jim Kim and the World Bank just opened by killing a bunch of loans to Uganda due to them not hewing the line on gay rights...
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Apr 15, 2014 01:10
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Between the nuclear arsenals of Europe, Russia, China, and South Asia I think mutually assured destruction should force the regional powers of Eurasia to come to some balance in the absence of US world policing.
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Apr 15, 2014 01:10
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shrike82 posted:If you can't differentiate between an NGO holding educational classes on contraceptives and a foreign government imposing sanctions... It's a yes or no question, an NGO is an 'outside force' educating people about things that are pretty objectively wrong, you said the post talking about any outside force doing that was easy to jump to imperialism. By 'not hewing the line' you mean literally criminalizing it and publishing a list of gays to incite violence?
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Apr 15, 2014 01:11
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Actually the post I quoted explicitly stated sanctions so you're pretty much wrong.
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Apr 15, 2014 01:12
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Tatum Girlparts posted:I think there are very few people saying the only option here is to colonize them again, but the fact is the Indian government and general culture is super resistant to these efforts. I mean, people keep saying we should just support the right parties and all but the socialist party that controls one of the biggest chunks of populated land just said 'eh death penalty for rapists is no good, a lot of women are lairs you know'. There are very few efforts within the place to change things. I think there's some reasons to be hopeful. For one the younger generation of Indian women looks like it has a lot of members who will be willing to challenge old cultural norms and practices, and the very fact that these issues are being widely discussed and acknowledged as an issue within the Indian public sphere is a good thing.
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Apr 15, 2014 01:12
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New Division posted:I think there's some reasons to be hopeful. For one the younger generation of Indian women looks like it has a lot of members who will be willing to challenge old cultural norms and practices, and the very fact that these issues are being widely discussed and acknowledged as an issue within the Indian public sphere is a good thing. Waiting for the old guys to die off never works though.
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Apr 15, 2014 01:13
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Tatum Girlparts posted:It's a yes or no question, an NGO is an 'outside force' educating people about things that are pretty objectively wrong, you said the post talking about any outside force doing that was easy to jump to imperialism. Not all NGOs could be considered outside forces. There are some Indian NGOs.
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Apr 15, 2014 01:16
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New Division posted:Not all NGOs could be considered outside forces. There are some Indian NGOs. And they most likely need outisde aid. Is that imperialism? I mean if I give money to an Indian NGO because I believe that the excuse of 'well it's the culture' doesn't justify raping a nine year old isn't that me forcing my values?
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Apr 15, 2014 01:19
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shrike82 posted:Considering that the OP is arguing that the impetus for change will come externally, I don't see why it's weird to interpret the thread as Colonialism 2.0 The whole discussion has been framed in a really lovely way, pretty much. I feel bad for Indian posters reading this thread, because I'm willing to stake my posting honor (lol) that vast the majority of them aren't exactly in favor of gang-rape and wife-burning and probably aren't super thrilled about Serious Posting In Capital Letters arguing in favor of colonial domination, war, etc.
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Apr 15, 2014 01:19
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Wife burnings and caste are egregious but where do you draw the line on what deserves foreign intervention? Women get paid $0.77 for every $1 that men get. Racism is still entrenched in vast swathes of the country with widespread attempts at disenfranchisement. Should we send foreign peacekeepers into the States and impose sanctions on US exports till this changes?
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Apr 15, 2014 01:22
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Tatum Girlparts posted:And they most likely need outisde aid. Is that imperialism? I mean if I give money to an Indian NGO because I believe that the excuse of 'well it's the culture' doesn't justify raping a nine year old isn't that me forcing my values? I thought I indicated I was fine with giving money to local NGOs. Frankly I don't believe that Western NGOs are inherently imperial in orientation (some of them sort of are, but not all), but I do think many of them are pretty ineffective at attempts to change the culture of another country.
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Apr 15, 2014 01:22
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shrike82 posted:Wife burnings and caste are egregious but where do you draw the line on what deserves foreign intervention? That's a pretty huge drop in scale isn't it? But yea if some Dutch dude said that poo poo was backwards I'd go 'yea fair point'.
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Apr 15, 2014 01:31
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How about prison culture in the US? That poo poo is enough for UN peacekeepers I'd say.
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Apr 15, 2014 01:33
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shrike82 posted:How about prison culture in the US? A UN program educating people that prison should be for rehab rather than punishment sure. Like don't worry man, these things won't change much for a while, we're talking a few posters saying 'yo maybe don't rape a nine year old' and 'leave that clit attached dude!' and outreach to the victims as the main function of these groups.
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Apr 15, 2014 01:44
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Xandu posted:Yeah, but that's obviously a silly idea (sanctions!), so I'm just surprised people haven't moved past it. The sanctions part was a bit of a joke in response to the severity of the problems, I don't seriously advocate them or think they work (look at Iraq and NK). I think funding NGOs and trying to (in an open, transparent way) influence the indian public through information campaigns would be acceptable.
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Apr 15, 2014 01:47
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Xandu posted:I feel like, terrible posts aside, this is a weird way to interpret this thread. You could easily re-phrase the question as "What should India do to speed up its development?" and get the same sorts of answers. I see your point. But "What should India do to speed up its development?" is maybe 10% of the solutions posted in this at best. Like, seriously the dominate theme of solutions is aligned with "How do we educate/fix/deal with these ignorant Indians". Like, the thread title actually matches the contents. Thundercracker fucked around with this message at 02:30 on Apr 15, 2014 |
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Apr 15, 2014 02:28
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Thundercracker posted:I see your point. But "What should India do to speed up its development?" is maybe 10% of the solutions posted in this at best. Like, seriously the dominate theme of solutions is aligned with "How do we educate/fix/deal with these ignorant Indians". Why do you think education is on the same level as 'deal with these ignorant Indians'?
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Apr 15, 2014 02:46
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tatankatonk posted:
Haha yeah I guess you're right, consider myself told. Welp, can't stay long to chat I'm off to the town square to rape and burn the newest widow and fight with a 7-11 clerk over her possessions.
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Apr 15, 2014 03:02
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Fallom posted:Haha yeah I guess you're right, consider myself told. Welp, can't stay long to chat I'm off to the town square to rape and burn the newest widow and fight with a 7-11 clerk over her possessions. Go back to GBS instead. shrike82 posted:How about prison culture in the US? It's possible to acknowledge India has problems without equivocating America's problems to India's. As another poster said, they're not quite on the same scale. illrepute fucked around with this message at 03:51 on Apr 15, 2014 |
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Apr 15, 2014 03:42
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Xandu posted:I feel like, terrible posts aside, this is a weird way to interpret this thread. You could easily re-phrase the question as "What should India do to speed up its development?" and get the same sorts of answers. It was kind of weird for a bunch of people to come down on this thread thinking that it was all and only about imposing an extra-national will on India to improve it, rather than a discussion on hypothetical policies that Indian politicians might make that could bring about positive change.
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Apr 15, 2014 05:18
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Way to go guys you just equated westerners trying to ban sati to the holocaust
EXTREME INSERTION fucked around with this message at 06:06 on Apr 15, 2014 |
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Apr 15, 2014 05:37
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EXTREME INSERTION posted:Way to go guys you just equated westerners trying to ban sari to the holocaust Why would anyone want to ban saris? 
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Apr 15, 2014 06:01
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illrepute posted:Why would anyone want to ban saris? My phone auto correct doesn't recognize sati haha
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Apr 15, 2014 06:07
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EXTREME INSERTION posted:My phone auto correct doesn't recognize sati haha Sounds like cultural erasure to me.
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Apr 15, 2014 06:17
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:Sounds like cultural erasure to me. Phone nicer than people
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Apr 15, 2014 06:20
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Yiggy posted:
This isn't necessarily a good thing at all. Indian construction standards outside of the big cities is a joke at best. Even in places like Hyderabad they have 2 or 3 deaths a week due to scaffolding collapsing because they don't know how to lash it properly. They even passed a law here in AP to spur growth that if a contractor completes 50% of the building, he receives 80% of the agreed upon contract value. At that point they cease construction and demand outrageous sums to finish. The result is you have hundreds of empty skeletons dotting Hyderabad built by contractor who never had any intentions of completing them. They're poorly built and are like unsalvageable, and will probably cost more to tear down than they did to build. On top of that, it's not like the construction workers get anything out of it other than slave wages. They live in slums around the construction site. Their homes are whatever they can salvage for frames (trees, stolen rebar, whatever) covered in tarps. They're rampant with disease, there's no fresh drinking water or sewage, rapes are endemic, etc. I'm not advocating letting people starve to spur some communist rebellion or whatever owlbot is advocating. Having completely unskilled labor paid slave wages to live in slums and build useless office buildings with Grover level structural integrity isn't the answer though.
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Apr 15, 2014 08:41
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FizFashizzle posted:
What lead to this law passing?
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Apr 15, 2014 08:50
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Best Friends posted:What lead to this law passing? Make construction jobs. Countries all over the world make dumb decisions to spur the construction industry. You could argue it's less destructive than leveraging the entire mortgage industry to do it. edit* it should also be noted that in the last decade and a half or so AP has been going out of its way to quash a nascent secession movement that was promising everything it could to the poor and downtrodden of the state. Giving them cheap jobs was one way of doing it, and it helped build their capital city in the process. Jokes on them of course, since the Congress Party sold the state upriver and created Telangana anyway, and gave them Hyderabad to boot! FizFashizzle fucked around with this message at 08:59 on Apr 15, 2014 |
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Apr 15, 2014 08:52
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FizFashizzle posted:This isn't necessarily a good thing at all. Indian construction standards outside of the big cities is a joke at best. Even in places like Hyderabad they have 2 or 3 deaths a week due to scaffolding collapsing because they don't know how to lash it properly. Interesting that the situation is essentially the same as it is for low-skilled Indian laborers abroad.
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Apr 16, 2014 02:52
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This thread has been dormant for a bit, but thought it worth reviving with the exit polls showing the BJP poised to deliver a 'shellacking' to the Congress party - Narendra Modi as PM, and a (probable) BJP parliamentary majority. The Congress party has been in power since independence. But, with the reluctant leadership of Rahul Gandhi, last few years of economic stagnation, and high profile corruption scandals (coal/electricity/etcetcetc.), this is relatively unsurprising. Some key points:
This brings to mind a few questions. First, are voters truly voting for Modi (and all he stands for), or is it more of a referendum on the directionless Congress Party? (I believe it's more toward the latter, although Modi supporters are very, very energetic about his leadership.) Modi has moderated his Hindu nationalist rhetoric (somewhat) in the past few years. How will this play out with him as PM? Will it be overt rhetoric, i.e. "India is for Hindus", or more toward implicit discrimination against Muslims, as with Muslims in Gujarat being left out of their state's economic and development gains? Will the Gujarat model for economic growth work in India as a whole? Sources: Guardian's liveblog of election results.
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May 16, 2014 17:36
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The way NPR reported it presented it as a referendum on the congress party as if they've just now fallen from power, but I don't know how much I agree with that. I feel like our press is trying to understand the Indian political situation through the only lens and narrative it knows; a two party system. But Congress has been weak and flagging for some time, and have only been able to participate in governance as part of a coalition government since the 90's. As far as I'm concerned the shellacking of the ICP has been going on since the death of Rajiv Gandhi and the parties attachment to (weak!) dynasty with the following of Sonia Gandhi, which obviously never inspired confidence or caused the public to rally its support in any meaningful way.
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May 17, 2014 02:18
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Witnessing this election firsthand was pretty fascinating. I'm especially fond of the buses picking people up from various slums/settlements and operatives handing them 4,000 rupees and a bottle of whiskey to go vote the right way. Here in Hyderabad, Modi supporters celebrated the announcement by murdering five Muslims in the old town.
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May 17, 2014 07:15
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