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Gortarius posted:Question: If that's all he's doing body his team in a 4 v 5. He's not just taking your farm he's also taking theirs.
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Jul 22, 2014 21:07
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Had a guy tell me he wouldn't pick Lina to complete Team Fire because she was only picked once at TI. I don't care for that person at all.
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Jul 22, 2014 21:08
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I don't understand why what people got from that final is "Valve needs to add concede", and not "this meta is bad".
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Jul 22, 2014 21:09
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I don't understand why people got "this meta is bad" in a tournament where 1 (one) team used it successfully.
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Jul 22, 2014 21:11
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AXE COP posted:I don't understand why people got "this meta is bad" in a tournament where 1 (one) team used it successfully. Two teams did, VG did the same thing as Newbee, and were successful with it until they ran into Newbee. But I agree, the strategy of two teams isn't really the meta. Everyone else was playing greed dota, deathballing is just good against that.
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Jul 22, 2014 21:13
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AXE COP posted:I don't understand why people got "this meta is bad" in a tournament where 1 (one) team used it successfully. And that team gg'd so fast in the finals that I swear Idra was playing as a standin.
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Jul 22, 2014 21:14
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verybad posted:Concede sucks because Dota isn't a game about maximizing your fun per minute, it's a competition with extreme highs and lows. People don't stop playing Dota when they're not having fun, they go on a 10 game lose streak bender. People stop playing the game when it gets boring, and a meta where game is decided @ 10 minutes when one team taps out is really loving boring. One of my games last night the captain gave up Lycan + Death Prophet + Jakiro + Pugna to the other team and someone on our team immediately started whining and crying and threatening to abandon the game but we won anyway because my clockwork set has a robotnik mustache (and I hooked good). With concede I would've lost because the player would've had more incentive to purposefully grief to get everyone to just concede go next. I also had a game yesterday that went an extra 20 minutes even though we successfully tied up the other team in our base long enough for our PL to rat and get megacreeps they also had two lanes of rax and a Sven with daedalus and rapier and honestly thought they could win. I'd rather have to learn how to not throw in that situation (wait for everyone to have buyback and have an aegis before trying to push for the win) than just not play it.
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Jul 22, 2014 21:19
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AXE COP posted:I don't understand why people got "this meta is bad" in a tournament where 1 (one) team used it successfully. But every single team used the 3-4 core meta? 
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Jul 22, 2014 21:21
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If Valve DID add a concede button, they should put it to a voting system that works like this: 1.) First suggestion to concede has to be unanimous, if one declines, conceding doesn't occur. It keeps track of those who declined. You can do a conceding vote for two or three minutes. 2.) Second voting occurs. Same rules apply. 3.) Third vote occurs. Same rules, but if it's been only one person declining and have done it three times in a row, they cannot vote in further votes. 4.) Forth vote occurs. Stated above, repeat decliner cannot vote. Does this sounds reasonable or is there a way to improve on this?
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Jul 22, 2014 21:23
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Elman posted:But every single team used the 3-4 core meta? Isn't that largely a result of the increase of passive gold gain? I mean, how would you go about changing the meta? It seems like every patch since last year has been icefrog trying to make 3-4 core lineups viable so the game goes faster.
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Jul 22, 2014 21:24
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Waffleopolis posted:If Valve DID add a concede button, they should put it to a voting system that works like this: I have some improvements: quote:Don't have a concede option.
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Jul 22, 2014 21:26
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Waffleopolis posted:If Valve DID add a concede button, they should put it to a voting system that works like this: Yes, you can make it better if you disconnect whoever starts the concede vote and give them an abandon. Also make it so you have to exit out of the game first, then click a button to start the concede vote (with a suitable warning that conceding will grant you an abandon).
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Jul 22, 2014 21:27
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Elman posted:I don't understand why what people got from that final is "Valve needs to add concede", and not "this meta is bad". This meta isn't bad, though. What meta would you prefer we went back to?
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Jul 22, 2014 21:27
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Gortarius posted:Question: Farm a gently caress ton and or gank his team/him and force buyback on tinker and then do it again.
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Jul 22, 2014 21:27
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You guys can complain all you want Valve is adding a concede option to the game and it might be tonight. (Techies)
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Jul 22, 2014 21:28
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Zwiftef posted:I also had a game yesterday that went an extra 20 minutes even though we successfully tied up the other team in our base long enough for our PL to rat and get megacreeps they also had two lanes of rax and a Sven with daedalus and rapier and honestly thought they could win. I'd rather have to learn how to not throw in that situation (wait for everyone to have buyback and have an aegis before trying to push for the win) than just not play it. It's not inconceivable. Sven can put out a shitton of damage and if they manage to push out lanes and win a good teamfight, they could probably throne you before megacreeps did their work, or at least rax you and get their own megacreeps. The fact that they held out for 20 minutes against megacreeps is probably enough testament to that fact, as usually megacreeps will win the game in a few waves at most.
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Jul 22, 2014 21:30
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JackDarko posted:If that's all he's doing body his team in a 4 v 5. He's not just taking your farm he's also taking theirs.
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Jul 22, 2014 21:32
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How is Hon Concede and LoL concede any different?
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Jul 22, 2014 21:33
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There are a lot of heroes that can catch Tinker when he blinks into trees. Failing that, push while he's still relatively weak. Or buy blade mails and walk around in his marches. He's far from unbeatable in the late game if you have any meaningful disables, especially now that everyone mindlessly apes the ethereal/dagon build they saw in pro games. Orchid or even a eul's will set him up to get murdered very easily.
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Jul 22, 2014 21:34
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Elman posted:But every single team used the 3-4 core meta? Why do you feel having 3 or 4 cores is a negative?
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Jul 22, 2014 21:34
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Speaking of which, what AOEs are able to stop insta-blinks (e.g. puck phase shift -> blink)?
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Jul 22, 2014 21:35
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Cabbit posted:This meta isn't bad, though. What meta would you prefer we went back to? Eh, 6.77 had a boring lane phase while this has a more dynamic one but more boring team compositions. I'm okay with what we have now, it just needs heavy rebalancing until non greedy lineups or 4 protects 1 are viable again. TI4 just made me sad because while there was plenty of pick variety, it seemed like they all played pretty similar. What I'm saying is just give us 6.82 soon  e: Meat Recital posted:Why do you feel having 3 or 4 cores is a negative? It's not, but I feel like it's supposed to be greedier and easier to punish than it currently is. Elman fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Jul 22, 2014 |
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Jul 22, 2014 21:39
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totalnewbie posted:Speaking of which, what AOEs are able to stop insta-blinks (e.g. puck phase shift -> blink)? You're not able to stop that if you shift click (unless you have like Black Hole under it or something).
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Jul 22, 2014 21:43
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Philosopher King posted:How is Hon Concede and LoL concede any different? Hon is available 15 minutes in, LoL 20. HoN concede spam starts the second the timer ticks to 15:00 and never stops, LoL votes also start immediately at 20:00 but happen a lot more seldom after that. I think this is because in LoL no one cares about anything beyond getting into the lane they want, whereas HoN has this number worship/e-penis atmosphere all around it that attracts all the shittiest kind of people to play it.
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Jul 22, 2014 21:43
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Porting in heroes would fix the meta that Elman is complaining about to some extent though. Pit Lord and LC would be great against any serious push lineup, TB has as much pushing power as Lycan without being able to buff his team with howl, Phoenix allows for more initiation options, Earth Spirit can pick on greedy lineups pretty easily, etc...
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Jul 22, 2014 21:45
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Philosopher King posted:How is Hon Concede and LoL concede any different? HoN requires 5/5 at 15min and 4/5 after 25mins, LoL is 4/5 after 20mins. I think. HoN changed it a couple times. It was best when HoN also had vote kick so you could get an abandon for being the one guy who refused to give up (ie you were mid but your poo poo sidelanes fed early game).
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Jul 22, 2014 21:46
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Elman posted:Eh, 6.77 had a boring lane phase while this has a more dynamic one but more boring team compositions. I'm okay with what we have now, it just needs heavy rebalancing until non greedy lineups or 4 protects 1 are viable again. TI4 just made me sad because while there was plenty of pick variety, it seemed like they all played pretty similar. It was punished as I've explained to you by VG and Newbee who ran drafts that had heroes who drop off if they don't win in twenty minutes. They weren't playing 4 core heroes, everyone else was and they lost because of it. For example let's take EGs draft in game three against VG. They drafted Timbersaw who needs levels and farm, Alchemist who needs levels and farm, Void who needs levels and farm, Enigma who needs levels and farm. All of these heroes get punished by deathball strats and deathball strats can't be greedy or they don't get the job done. Asuron fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Jul 22, 2014 |
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Jul 22, 2014 21:48
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Now vote kick. I could get behind a vote kick. There are a number of games where I could either micro the other guys hero better than he could play or just outcarry the enemy if I had all his gold. That would be sweet.
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Jul 22, 2014 21:49
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Gortarius posted:Question: I haven't had the chance to personally try it but I would think that Clockwerk with blademail would gently caress that up pretty good. Flare -> Hook -> Cog -> Battery -> Blademail and he can't TP, rearm, or blink. If he tries to rocket/missile you he just blew off half of his own health and a third of yours while battery assault continues to beat his skull in. If he's got eblade dagon and drops his whole combo into your blademail the he very possibly just instapopped himself. You pin him down and shut down his entire toolkit and make him cry. Also blocking ancients with wards the entire game will make him very unhappy, like every pub Tinker ever does the March build these days and is heavily reliant on getting their ancients stack and farming it. Especially because (I don't know the timing for Ancients but I know it's possible) Clock can block creep camps with ancients. It's really fun to do to pull camps, and absolutely doable to ancients if you get the timing down. It's kind of a tough trick to do and I only get it right half the time, but it's super satisfying and if you can do it to Tinker from your offlane you can dick him over super hard when he's trying to stack every minute for the first 5-10 minutes. Philosopher King posted:Now vote kick. I could get behind a vote kick. There are a number of games where I could either micro the other guys hero better than he could play or just outcarry the enemy if I had all his gold. That would be sweet. I feel like stacks would abuse it heavily. Magres fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Jul 22, 2014 |
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Jul 22, 2014 21:52
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I had an unwinnable game today http://dotabuff.com/matches/791543191 We won anyway 
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Jul 22, 2014 21:53
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http://dotabuff.com/matches/791619702 Mirana spends the entire match getting picked off solo and not showing up too a single team fight. She might as well not be on the team. Then this happens;  
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Jul 22, 2014 21:55
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Luigi Thirty posted:I had an unwinnable game today Enemy team must have really hosed themselves over.
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Jul 22, 2014 21:56
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Magres posted:I feel like stacks would abuse it heavily. Since you the largest stack you can have on your team in ranked is a three stack, it's potential for abuse isn't really that bad. I think it would be a great option.
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Jul 22, 2014 21:57
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Angrymantium posted:Porting in heroes would fix the meta that Elman is complaining about to some extent though. Pit Lord and LC would be great against any serious push lineup, TB has as much pushing power as Lycan without being able to buff his team with howl, Phoenix allows for more initiation options, Earth Spirit can pick on greedy lineups pretty easily, etc... I think me and Lets!Get!Weird! got shouted down about this before but I totally agree here. All this poo poo should be done already, but even more so now, within the next 3-4 months or something. Maybe this is overly entitled, but to me Valve has no excuse for not having all the heroes ported over and all but the most troublesome in Captain's mode when they are swimming around in the community's 30 million dollars.
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Jul 22, 2014 21:58
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computer parts posted:Coming back to this - if someone's being a dick, report them (they're probably doing something reportable). That is not at all what was originally talked about. Actually it is, because now I'm being punished because he wants to be an rear end in a top hat. Sure, he'll probably eventually get enough reports to be punished as well, but that's off in the future and there's nothing I can really do outside of reporting him to speed up that process. Meanwhile, I'm sitting here staring at a timer because it was either that or sit in a game that was decided when someone decided to be an rear end in a top hat. This conversation's thread isn't that hard to follow. Whether it's a big enough problem to warrant bothering to do anything about it is an entirely different issue from what I was talking about, which is what the actual harm in a concede option does. So far all I've heard is anecdotal evidence and "this game would have totally been conceded if it was an option, therefore concede is awful " which is basically nothing.Also the fact that I came from league and still think concede is a fine option in a competitive game sort of implies I didn't have any bad experiences with it there, so maybe you all just played 2 games of hon/league with lovely people and formed an opinion based on that? Who knows.
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Jul 22, 2014 22:00
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ScienceAndMusic posted:Enemy team must have really hosed themselves over. We yolopushed down mid on their T4s and killed them, Faceless got me in a chronosphere and refreshed. Invoker blasted me right between the two chronospheres, the second one missed me, I popped all my illusion spells and right clicked the ancient to death while he killed Gyrocopter.
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Jul 22, 2014 22:00
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mikeraskol posted:I think me and Lets!Get!Weird! got shouted down about this before but I totally agree here. All this poo poo should be done already, but even more so now, within the next 3-4 months or something. Maybe this is overly entitled, but to me Valve has no excuse for not having all the heroes ported over and all but the most troublesome in Captain's mode when they are swimming around in the community's 30 million dollars. Yeah honestly it's getting frustrating that they're moving at a snail's pace now that they have tens of millions when they were releasing heroes by the handful before the game really got rolling. Like please, just put in one final push and finish the goddamned game. I want my Pit Lord 
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Jul 22, 2014 22:01
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Luigi Thirty posted:We yolopushed down mid on their T4s and killed them, Faceless got me in a chronosphere and refreshed. Invoker blasted me right between the two chronospheres, the second one missed me, I popped all my illusion spells and right clicked the ancient to death while he killed Gyrocopter. Haha that sounds like a rad game. I love those kind of yolo hail mary's that pay off. I think adding surrender to the game for a month would be a delicious social experiment.
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Jul 22, 2014 22:02
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mikeraskol posted:I think me and Lets!Get!Weird! got shouted down about this before but I totally agree here. All this poo poo should be done already, but even more so now, within the next 3-4 months or something. Maybe this is overly entitled, but to me Valve has no excuse for not having all the heroes ported over and all but the most troublesome in Captain's mode when they are swimming around in the community's 30 million dollars. I don't really take a side in that because yes, I 100% believe Valve has prioritized bullshit over porting heroes that will increase the variability of pro games and I think it's insane that Valve hasn't ported every hero yet. But also Valve is known for having lovely customer service and refusing to acknowledge their playerbase so I don't see the point in ranting about it. Porting heroes both from Dota to Dota 2 and existing heroes into CM would fix a lot of problems, but you're basically shaking your fist at the sky because Valve doesn't give a poo poo. Did you buy a compendium? Great, you just handed them money for a few couriers and weather effects; they got your money without changing anything that effects your gameplay. There are plenty of people IN THIS VERY THREAD that spend stupid amounts of money on the hats Valve puts into the game every week, so there's not much of an incentive to actually work on the gameplay itself.
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Jul 22, 2014 22:03
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Magres posted:Yeah honestly it's getting frustrating that they're moving at a snail's pace now that they have tens of millions when they were releasing heroes by the handful before the game really got rolling. Like please, just put in one final push and finish the goddamned game. I want my Pit Lord Well the argument people put forth is essentially twofold: (i) it takes much more work to port a hero now because you have to break them down for cosmetics and the models are higher quality, and (ii) because of Valve's structure employees can work on whatever they want. I guess my response as a consumer of their product is I don't care about either of those finish the drat game.
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Jul 22, 2014 22:04
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