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lol saying you're a social democrat and therefore can't possibly be a centrist
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Nov 28, 2018 02:46
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Ok so what’s the word for someone who leans left of center and doesn’t like the current system and does want radical change for his friends of different skin colors and cultures? If that’s not liberal (because I don’t live in the suburbs and don’t have a gently caress You Got Mine attitude) then what am I? I swear this thread is using different definitions than anywhere else and I’ve been having this discussion pretty much daily for like 4 years.
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Nov 28, 2018 14:09
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Bust Rodd posted:Ok so what’s the word for someone who leans left of center and doesn’t like the current system and does want radical change for his friends of different skin colors and cultures? If that’s not liberal (because I don’t live in the suburbs and don’t have a gently caress You Got Mine attitude) then what am I? I swear this thread is using different definitions than anywhere else and I’ve been having this discussion pretty much daily for like 4 years. It always depends who you ask, moreso in the current climate. The thing that seems missing from this discussion is that when chapo types say liberal, what I hear is neoliberal, which is by turns both correct and intentionally misleading since what it refers to is economic liberalism, rather than US "liberals," which has effectively just become "anywhere left of the republicans," which in fairness isn't even leftist at all necessarily, and definitely not in practice looking at the democrats. Basically flavors of leftism are like metal subgenres, there's as many as you care to look for and nobody can agree who the true Scotsman is.
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Nov 28, 2018 16:12
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Bust Rodd posted:Ok so what’s the word for someone who leans left of center and doesn’t like the current system and does want radical change for his friends of different skin colors and cultures? If that’s not liberal (because I don’t live in the suburbs and don’t have a gently caress You Got Mine attitude) then what am I? I swear this thread is using different definitions than anywhere else and I’ve been having this discussion pretty much daily for like 4 years. To the people in this thread, if you aren't a socialist, then you are a centrist. Yes, it merges center left, centrist, and center right into one pointless label, and is really diverged from any political reality, but it is one of they key tools to radicalize the center left.
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Nov 28, 2018 16:17
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MegaZeroX posted:To the people in this thread, if you aren't a socialist, then you are a centrist. Yes, it merges center left, centrist, and center right into one pointless label, and is really diverged from any political reality, but it is one of they key tools to radicalize the center left. What in the gently caress is going on. The only centrist here should really be russell crowe's appearance as it was the center of attention in the episode. Also you're a bit nutty and this sounds like a super crazy c-spam hottake
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Nov 28, 2018 19:39
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The Radical Center-Left 
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Nov 28, 2018 19:42
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Dude described socialism as a "Radical ideology", which as someone not from the US is frankly funny as gently caress. Unless he means socialists doing kickflips in which case I am on board.
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Nov 28, 2018 19:53
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Veskit posted:What in the gently caress is going on. Literally this. Every time I check the new posts in this thread I have to look up at the thread title to remind myself what I'm reading. You guys are getting really loving off-topic; take this poo poo to somewhere more appropriate like D&D or FYAD.
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Nov 28, 2018 19:54
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Atomizer posted:You guys are getting really loving off-topic; take this poo poo to somewhere more appropriate like D&D or FYAD. For the love of God please this
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Nov 28, 2018 19:58
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Eh, show's gone for like 2 months right? Gotta talk about something.
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Nov 28, 2018 20:25
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I don't quite understand not wanting to discuss the politics of a political comedy show. Or being shocked that others do.
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Nov 28, 2018 21:01
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SiKboy posted:Unless he means socialists doing kickflips in which case I am on board. I spend my days catching big air and getting totally tubular, dude
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Nov 28, 2018 23:01
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SiKboy posted:Dude described socialism as a "Radical ideology", which as someone not from the US is frankly funny as gently caress. Unless he means socialists doing kickflips in which case I am on board. It is, here. Bernie is in practice a social democrat. He's on the fringe left.
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Nov 28, 2018 23:13
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Rarity posted:I spend my days catching big air and getting totally tubular, dude Totally awesomely radical, dude.
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Nov 29, 2018 00:13
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Orange Devil posted:I don't quite understand not wanting to discuss the politics of a political comedy show. Or being shocked that others do. That isn't what is happening.
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Nov 29, 2018 05:17
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Bust Rodd posted:Ok so what’s the word for someone who leans left of center and doesn’t like the current system and does want radical change for his friends of different skin colors and cultures? If that’s not liberal (because I don’t live in the suburbs and don’t have a gently caress You Got Mine attitude) then what am I? I swear this thread is using different definitions than anywhere else and I’ve been having this discussion pretty much daily for like 4 years. Neither historically, nor in contemporary United States politics do politicians who identify as 'liberal' advocate for "radical change". The aristocratic French liberals of 1789 didn't want radical change, they wanted a step down from absolutism into a Prussian-style constitutional monarchy, or more broadly a decentralization of power away from Paris and Versailles. Today's American liberals (think Cory Booker, Joe Biden, or the Clintons) similarly do not want to decommodify housing, or reform our for-profit prison system, or forgive student loans, and instead they look for palliative solutions that may be better than nothing but still ultimately leave large systemic problems unaddressed. This is all without even touching their track records of full throated support for America's wars of imperialism, adventurism, and 'regime change'. There are dozens of labels you could use for yourself to sum up your broad beliefs and its a matter of finding a body of political theory or a movement you find to be both moral and reasonable and going from there
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Nov 29, 2018 05:52
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Orange Devil posted:I don't quite understand not wanting to discuss the politics of a political comedy show. Or being shocked that others do. No, the discussion is wildly off-topic, only being tangentially relatable to something you saw on the show. Plus, there are other threads where this kind of thing is on-topic. Trust me, I'm like the king of off-topic tangents, if I'm complaining about you guys then we definitely have a problem here.
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Nov 29, 2018 09:32
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When people ask me my political affiliations I tell them that I'd call myself a Libertarian if the Libertarians weren't such a mess. It means that I generally think the government's job is to protect its citizens and otherwise stay out of our lives. Except that means I'm in favor of guns being legal and a strong military to look out for our interests and also in favor of the EPA and stuff like that because protecting citizens means protecting our environment, and I think it should stop corporations from having too much power over us, and basically no one really fits into any category at all and it's just a fancy word that doesn't mean anything.
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Nov 30, 2018 01:00
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Phenotype posted:When people ask me my political affiliations I tell them that I'd call myself a Libertarian if the Libertarians weren't such a mess. It means that I generally think the government's job is to protect its citizens and otherwise stay out of our lives. Except that means I'm in favor of guns being legal and a strong military to look out for our interests and also in favor of the EPA and stuff like that because protecting citizens means protecting our environment, and I think it should stop corporations from having too much power over us, and basically no one really fits into any category at all and it's just a fancy word that doesn't mean anything.
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Nov 30, 2018 01:15
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Phenotype posted:When people ask me my political affiliations I tell them that I'd call myself a Libertarian if the Libertarians weren't such a mess. It means that I generally think the government's job is to protect its citizens and otherwise stay out of our lives. Except that means I'm in favor of guns being legal and a strong military to look out for our interests and also in favor of the EPA and stuff like that because protecting citizens means protecting our environment, and I think it should stop corporations from having too much power over us, and basically no one really fits into any category at all and it's just a fancy word that doesn't mean anything. What if protecting Citizens means taking guns away from the citizens so they stop shooting each other?
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Nov 30, 2018 01:17
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socialsecurity posted:What if protecting Citizens means taking guns away from the citizens so they stop shooting each other? That's also a valid interpretation and maybe the right one. But maybe there's a way to have gun ownership and also less gun violence? But holy poo poo 
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Nov 30, 2018 01:33
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Phenotype posted:That's also a valid interpretation and maybe the right one. But maybe there's a way to have gun ownership and also less gun violence? I think there should only be two guns in America (I'd say just one, but it's the right to bear armS), and everyone takes turns and gets to have them for a day. If you shoot someone with them or threaten to shoot someone with them or get them all sticky with jelly or something, you don't get to have them again.
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Nov 30, 2018 03:42
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Phenotype posted:When people ask me my political affiliations I tell them that I'd call myself a Libertarian if the Libertarians weren't such a mess. It means that I generally think the government's job is to protect its citizens and otherwise stay out of our lives. Except that means I'm in favor of guns being legal and a strong military to look out for our interests and also in favor of the EPA and stuff like that because protecting citizens means protecting our environment, and I think it should stop corporations from having too much power over us, and basically no one really fits into any category at all and it's just a fancy word that doesn't mean anything. Ah so you don't like society's problems but you like their causes
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Nov 30, 2018 04:10
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Phi230 posted:Ah so you don't like society's problems but you like their causes Well, I like the things I just said I liked. If those are the causes, then okay. I'm not convinced of that, but I'm open to discussion. Except that I'm not really open to discussion because I don't care that much, but if you held a gun to my head and made me have this conversation then I'd be pretty open minded if you can show your work.
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Nov 30, 2018 04:51
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Phenotype posted:Except that I'm not really open to discussion because I don't care that much,
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Nov 30, 2018 05:42
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Phenotype posted:That's also a valid interpretation and maybe the right one. But maybe there's a way to have gun ownership and also less gun violence? Gun control really isn't a can of worms, America is just a really dumb country.
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Nov 30, 2018 05:55
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LividLiquid posted:Man. This must be nice. yeah being mostly white and male and non poverty is pretty sweet you don't have to care about much of anything unless you really want to
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Nov 30, 2018 05:58
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Rarity posted:Gun control really isn't a can of worms, America is just a really dumb country. Yeah it's one of those crazy things that somehow the entire rest of the world seems to have figured out but America is "special".
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Nov 30, 2018 07:45
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The Cheshire Cat posted:Yeah it's one of those crazy things that somehow the entire rest of the world seems to have figured out but America is "special". Kind of like healthcare! 
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Nov 30, 2018 07:57
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The disconnect on the meaning of the term 'liberal' is between people who - and this is not a value judgment on said knowledge - know a lot of political theory and the underpinning beliefs of various ideologies, and people whose engagement with politics mostly resembles their engagement with sports teams. Most people in America fall into the latter camp. Because America doesn't have an actually leftist political party, and America's Overton window skews right, for most Americans "liberal" ends up covering a pretty ridiculous swath of beliefs whose only unifying trait is varying degrees of commitment to social equality as the most important issue. They don't think of that, though, they just know this person isn't a Republican. They don't know of any other box to use. The sort of people who go on an internet forum to talk about a political comedy show tend to be on the more political science savvy side, and the term "liberal" gets necessarily more specific. It's best exemplified by the Hilllary wing of the Democratic party in my view, though I know lots of people who would call any involvement with Democrats liberal.
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Nov 30, 2018 10:40
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Phenotype posted:When people ask me my political affiliations I tell them that I'd call myself a Libertarian if the Libertarians weren't such a mess. It means that I generally think the government's job is to protect its citizens and otherwise stay out of our lives. Except that means I'm in favor of guns being legal and a strong military to look out for our interests and also in favor of the EPA and stuff like that because protecting citizens means protecting our environment, and I think it should stop corporations from having too much power over us, and basically no one really fits into any category at all and it's just a fancy word that doesn't mean anything. Sorry bud, turns out most of the "small government" crowd are actually stealth monarchists, but with corporations as the little feudal dominions of absolute power. Or at least the ones with money are. So that's what they make it into. Also a big centerpiece of that kind of movement is "fiscal conservatism" which is really just a formulated way to percieve anyone getting anything as somehow you getting screwed, but also they'll piss a couple billion dollars into a hole while arguing about thousands because nobody really cares about making numbers work.
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Nov 30, 2018 14:12
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SlothfulCobra posted:Sorry bud, turns out most of the "small government" crowd are actually stealth monarchists, but with corporations as the little feudal dominions of absolute power. Or at least the ones with money are. So that's what they make it into. Yeah the whole "quibble over thousands, piss away billions" is a big part of modern American politics because the trouble is that people can comprehend smaller numbers a lot better than big ones and this is something that Republicans exploit to go after their ideological opponents. It's why they'll get very exact when it comes to talking about the budget of something like Planned Parenthood but very, very vague when it comes to military spending. They will also deliberately ignore the "return on investment" factor and pretend that all government spending is waste, when in fact several programs actually make a profit.
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Dec 1, 2018 02:31
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SlothfulCobra posted:Sorry bud, turns out most of the "small government" crowd are actually stealth monarchists, but with corporations as the little feudal dominions of absolute power. Or at least the ones with money are. So that's what they make it into. aw 
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Dec 1, 2018 04:54
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The Cheshire Cat posted:Yeah the whole "quibble over thousands, piss away billions" is a big part of modern American politics because the trouble is that people can comprehend smaller numbers a lot better than big ones and this is something that Republicans exploit to go after their ideological opponents. It's why they'll get very exact when it comes to talking about the budget of something like Planned Parenthood but very, very vague when it comes to military spending. They will also deliberately ignore the "return on investment" factor and pretend that all government spending is waste, when in fact several programs actually make a profit. It's even worse than this. Analyzing government spending as if it is a business aka, using terms like return on investment, fundamentally misses the point that the objective of a legitimate government is not and can not be turning a profit. The only objective that can legitimize the authority a government wields is increasing the general welfare of it's population. That's the only metric government spending ought to be judged by.
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Dec 2, 2018 14:41
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It's a fair point that governments shouldn't be run for profit, but there is something to be said for at least trying to stay solvent. The one big thing I know that Bill Clinton did in his presidency wasestablish a budget surplus, where the US was actually paying back some of its debt, that W in grand Republican fashion literally just gave away. Like there's two arguments to be made here, one against using some nitpicky beancounting to cut important programs and one that none of those beans are even counted right anyways.
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Dec 2, 2018 15:33
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SlothfulCobra posted:It's a fair point that governments shouldn't be run for profit, but there is something to be said for at least trying to stay solvent. In the case of the US, no there really isn't. Just like the government shouldn't be run like a corporation, it shouldn't be run like a loving household either. Clinton should've been using that money to help poor people.
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Dec 2, 2018 15:49
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It’s weird how when you build your entire country around making money then suddenly poor people feel like the government doesn’t care about what they want.
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Dec 2, 2018 15:55
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Is there a movement where you want your businesses to get to a point where they're fiscally solvent and have enough in the bank for research and development but after that making money isn't as important as improving the product?
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Dec 2, 2018 16:32
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Phenotype posted:Is there a movement where you want your businesses to get to a point where they're fiscally solvent and have enough in the bank for research and development but after that making money isn't as important as improving the product? Good joke lmao
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Dec 2, 2018 16:57
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Yea it’s called communism you commie.
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Dec 2, 2018 17:00
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