Urban Fantasy: I wish there was more necromancy and less group sex

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Mars4523: Feb 17, 2014

If Murphy stays nerfed for long I'm going to be pissed. I'm already not happy that Butters, who didn't need to be a superpowered Knight, got a power up, and for it to be in the same book as Murphy getting injured, sidelined, (and knocked down to love interest) felt like a slap in the face.

And I REALLY don't like Michael getting back in the fight. The dude had his happy ending... why pull him back from that?

Mars4523 fucked around with this message at 17:31 on May 27, 2014

# ¿ May 27, 2014 16:58

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# ¿ May 5, 2024 04:27

Mars4523: Feb 17, 2014

ImpAtom posted:

My biggest problem with Grey is that his voice and general tone was super goddamn Hellhound, right down to hitting on Murphy. I don't think Butcher did a good job distinguishing the character.

You're right, Butcher really didn't. He's kind of just a generic mercenary type. There's probably some potential given his heritage but that wasn't really exploited here.

This book had no stakes. If it were "Dresden's Eleven", it'd be "Ocean's Eleven" without the cast chemistry. In these kinds of stories, plots within plots and eventual success are givens, but none of it felt organic. There were too many moving parts (and thus points of failure) in the plot and it felt pretty drat contrived.

I'm still sick and tired of the extraneous male gaze (ahem Hannah). It's been 15 books and by now it feels more forced and perfunctory than it does a character quirk. Grow the gently caress up, Harry. There were bits of Harry's internal dialogue here that reminded me of the worst aspects of his character, and not in a self aware way either.

And if Murphy stays gimped and/or gets demoted from active participant in the plot/struggle to preserve humanity to "Love interest" or damsel in distress I'll probably call it quits.

# ¿ May 27, 2014 23:01

Mars4523: Feb 17, 2014

Potooweet posted:

Why did Nic need to kill his daughter when he had an entire cult of fanatics to sacrifice?

.... You know, that's a good point!

# ¿ May 27, 2014 23:30

Mars4523: Feb 17, 2014

Honestly I want to just see Butters fail utterly at being a Knight and get killed or crippled after a mission or two. The guy became a Knight pretty much on pluck alone, but let's face it, he's completely in over his head. Even if Michael, who is crippled, Sanya, who is constantly busy, or Murphy, who will need months of PT to return to form, manage to train him on a few sword techniques, there is no way at Butters' age (middle) and level of fitness (poor) he will acquire a reasonable level of skill needed to go up against the beasties Knights face off against. And given how busy Knights are, I doubt he'd be able to sit out the multiple years he'd need to develop those skills from scratch.

Regarding Ascher...
While Rape as Backstory is an immensely lovely and sexist way to lend "depth" and "motivation" to a female character, I couldn't help but laugh when that bomb dropped. Why? Well, while I am not a multiple best selling author of a long running book series, I would think if that I'm going to be using a rape backstory to make my female villain sympathetic, I should avoid waiting until the Very last minute when she and the hero are fighting to the death while wasting valuable page time earlier in the book on having the first person narrator and other males comment on how attractive she is.

But hey, who am I to say?

Mars4523 fucked around with this message at 02:23 on May 28, 2014

# ¿ May 28, 2014 02:08

Mars4523: Feb 17, 2014

I've always liked Murphy, and she's actually the character that drew me to the series. She wasn't so much mishandled here as she was not really used at all, brought in and then promptly shoved offscreen while Harry leers at boring sexy warlock chick, or to play the thankless role of Harry's second. Up until the point that that she gets unceremoniously taken out of commission and replaced with the lesser Michael (I like the retired Michael better) who plays the thankless role of Harry's second for the rest of the book.

Probably could have cut a few pointless battle scenes in favor of more character work, for Murphy (who hasn't gotten a focus in books, this one included) to the newer, still undeveloped ones.

I can only hope that she gets some focus in Peace Talks (which looks more Molly focused). Let her take a more active role, dabble in the occult of Odin's people, etc etc.

# ¿ May 28, 2014 03:22

Mars4523: Feb 17, 2014

ImpAtom posted:

If Murphy goes from being a cool and self-assured asskicker to being the girlfriend character who is effectively worthless in any of the big meaningful events to come, that'd basically be the end of the series of me. No amount of 'well, it makes sense' would justify that in a series where goddamn Waldo Butters gets to step up to be a serious physical threat.

And yes, being able to participate in the action scenes is a requirement. They make up huge chunks of the book and are were characters define themselves and get to do cool things. Murphy getting 'girlfriended' so that she, and she alone of the major adult characters (except arguably Michael, who was back in action this book anyway), is taken out of action would be awful writing.

Seriously, there is no limit to the amount of what the gently caress I would have for this series. Karrin Murphy, who from day one has been a capable mortal ally to Harry Dresden and who when facing any number of supernatural beasties has always been able to look after herself and kick tons of rear end (including icing two Council level warlocks on her lonesome), getting reduced to the handwringing girlfriend will basically cause me to immediately go "gently caress this" and throw all my Dresden books out.

When freaking Waldo Butters gets to become a Jedi, there's no reason in the world that Murphy should be forced to sit the good fight out.

Why should Murphy be forced to become another Charity? Murphy would never be one who would be willing to stay at home, if not barefoot then frequently pregnant, to tend the hearth fires while the man of the house is off to war. That's just one step away from being an actual damsel in distress (fitting, because Charity WAS an actual Damsel in Distress.

Ok, so Charity isn't actually that retrograde of a character, but still, optics! The woman has been fighting on the front lines since day one, trained with nigh immortal Einherjar, and fielded a job offer to become a capital V Valkyrie. Given that, to reduce her to support staff would be moronic.

VanSandman posted:

I think the problem is, the First Law is mostly bullshit.

Well, the First Law is one of those that actually has measurable metaphysical consequences (namely, you want to kill more!), so it is one of those laws which is not actually bullshit.

Mars4523 fucked around with this message at 06:55 on May 28, 2014

# ¿ May 28, 2014 06:46

Mars4523: Feb 17, 2014

Waldo Butters is actually a few years older than Murphy is. Plus he's not particularly fit, and he's completely untrained in any sword styles. Shiro remained a threat to Denarians even in his old age due to his utterly ridiculous fitness and his even more ridiculous mastery of his blade. Butters has none of that.

Here's the thing: the only thing that the Swords do are even the playing field. At which point you're not fighting a terrifyingly freakish demon spawn from hell, but only an exceptionally skilled warrior with millennia of experience. The Sword doesn't teach you to fight well, you need to know how to fight already.

MOD EDIT: gaaah people please use the @%%@#%@#$ tags so I don't have to do this

Somebody fucked around with this message at 22:00 on May 28, 2014

# ¿ May 28, 2014 07:29

Mars4523: Feb 17, 2014

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

The problem with Murphy is Butcher has kinda written himself into a corner with her. The more powerful everything gets the less able Murphy is to keep up. Her character arc kinda peaked in the post-Changes short story and there aren't many places for her to go from here; giving her a Sword was too obvious and almost anything else would involve her going evil given the strictures of Butcher's world. .

... Valkyrie?

Donar Vadderung does have a vested interest in Harry remaining alive, and Murphy certainly is a suitable candidate.

# ¿ May 28, 2014 13:45

Mars4523: Feb 17, 2014

ImpAtom posted:

It is in incredibly bad taste, especially considering she spends most of the book trying to get people to sleep with her, being hit on, and has a conveniently exploitative sequence where she has to strip out of her clothes to complete a puzzle.

If it had just been that one thing it would have been less noticable but the book quite literally has more words dedicated to her sexy body than Molly has lines. It spends the entire time sexualizing her and then "welp, my backstory is rape!"

Plus, there are ways pull of "Unjustly hunted because used magic to kill a heinous criminal" besides "Rape!" It just requires even the smallest modicum of creativity. I don't know, she kills with fire an armed convenience store or bank robber(s) or something. Believe it or not, antiheroic women can have motivations for the reason they do the things that they do that go beyond "Rape".

And, yeah, that scene at the Gate was just incredibly tacky. Did Harry need to strip buck naked to complete his task (with Anna Valmont and Hannah leering at him), despite the fact that the superchilled temperatures he faced would have frozen his clothes solid and immobile? Nope.

# ¿ May 29, 2014 07:05

Mars4523: Feb 17, 2014

Xtanstic posted:

Is it fair to excuse these gratuitous sexy female scenes as Lashiel the Temptress doing her flirty bit with Harry/the rest of the crew? I still don't really know where I stand on the whole issue.

Not really. From "well, rape!" backstory we're apparently supposed to believe that Hannah was at the wheel for all but the climax of the book. Also since "Is it Hannah or Lasciel talking" is never brought up as a them in the book I'd argue that we're not supposed to question whether it was Lasciel who was at the helm during their interactions. And thirdly, this is not a documentary, but rather a fiction that Jim Butcher wrote, and so he has ultimate control over everything that goes on the page. And "Well, it's pretty hot, so I'll just take off all my clothes tee hee" is one of the loving stupidest excuses for fanservice I've ever seen.

I mean, say it was Lasciel behind that. What was her end goal in giving the guys (and the first person narrator) a show? Did she actually hope to accomplish anything, or was it just gratuitous fanservice in a book that is already incredibly tipped towards men in the male vs. female agency scale?

Also, Hannah is pretty stacked. We know because of Dresden's male gaze. Buxom woman sprinting barefoot and naked... ouch? Ouch.

Mars4523 fucked around with this message at 07:25 on May 29, 2014

# ¿ May 29, 2014 07:21

Mars4523: Feb 17, 2014

I'm still pretty disappointed at how badly Murphy got shafted from any power-up or character development. Hopefully the next book will be better for her but she got screwed, big time. Still hoping that she signs up with Odin and becomes a Valkyrie.

If she gets fridged I'm done, though.

# ¿ Jun 2, 2014 09:47

Mars4523: Feb 17, 2014

If Cold Days had kept the sexually really hosed up Winter Fae (who being Fae are down for all kinds of poo poo because that's what they do) but left out (or at the very least toned down) the RAPE RAPE RAPE RAPE I would have been happier. That Fae party scene actually worked for me, because it worked on a character level: first showing that Maeve is a tryhard, and second actually having Harry use his big brain instead of his little one to see insanely obvious Fae shenanigans as they are*. Didn't need RAPE RAPE RAPE RAPE to figure out that the Winter Mantle is lovely for you, thanksverymuch.

I just got tired of the constant "DUR HUR PRETTY LADY" in Skin Game. Not only did it waste a lot of page space that could have been spent on better topics but, even worse, it hosed up the flow and pacing of the writing.

Harry could drop the Narrative Male Gaze next book and I would be very happy. It's not even particularly necessary at this point, since "Harry is a pig and sexually repressed" is not even in the top 10 of his more interesting characteristics. At the very least Butcher could stop spending so much time on the details. I'm fifteen books in and already sold on the series, so there are some other things I'd prefer to be reading about instead of the shape of the invariably attractive female character's tits and how good her body looks sweaty.

*By contrast, it looked like Harry took several stupid pills during his confinement to Demonreach with regards to Mab, surprise surprise, being a slippery bastard.

# ¿ Jun 10, 2014 14:52

Mars4523: Feb 17, 2014

Scintilla posted:

A bit late, but a few things come to mind.

-Tavi never really suffering any kind of permanent loss or long-term defeat.
-Isana being a horrible person and pretty much never being called out for it.
-The Marat being painted as noble savages and Alerans as horrible slave-taking liars despite the former being literal cannibals.
-The romances, nearly all of which are terrible.
-The Vord long outstaying their welcome as villains. Ditto Invidia, who shouldn't have survived her first 'death'.
-On a related note Kalarus Brencis being a shallower villain than Skeletor.
-The idea of Furies as distinct Pokemon-like entities pretty much vanishing after the first book.
-The literal women's rights organisation was also pretty jarring.

Some of these are pretty subjective. But overall whilst I did enjoy the Codex Alera novels they are worse than the Dresden Files in a lot of ways.

I actually like Isana, since she's the female POV character with the best record of getting poo poo done on her own, although I could have done without her "romance" (which comes right the gently caress out of nowhere) with Araris. Kitai had the potential to be pretty badass but she never gets to be anything more than Tavi's Hot Magic Elf Girlfriend (I would have loved a POV subplot or a few from her perspective as she goes off on her own) and Amara always remains attached to Bernard's character (that she can't land a hit against anything bigger than a mook without tearing her arm out of her socket and collapsing from the pain doesn't help).

One thing that in retrospect disappoints me about the series is how few relatively "powerhouse" female crafters there are, when everything about the worldbuilding suggests that they should be present at a 50/50 proportion with the men. By this I mean the more "down to earth" elements, Earth, Metal, Wood, and Fire, as opposed to the more archetypically feminine speed/lightness/agility of Air or the healing and empathy of Water (Missed opportunity to have Isana bloodbend, er, craft a stroke into a cohort of Immortals? Probably.). The only female characters who apply are Lady Aria Placida (who is awesome), and Phrygiar Navaris and Lady Invidia (murderous sociopath with daddy issues and evil backstabber respectively). The thing is, the world as it's presented should have more, since if the Furies don't discriminate women should be just as likely to become a military-grade powerhouse as a man, plus the whole enfranchisement thing. And not to mention that an isolated force of 10,000 or so (one Legion, plus their auxiliaries and camp followers) dropped in the middle of a host of enemies would need every Knight-tier body it has to hold the line, male or female.

And hey, fantasy literature could use more Lin Bei Fong type metal, er, crafters around.

# ¿ Jul 1, 2014 13:49

Mars4523: Feb 17, 2014

Fried Chicken posted:

Latest laundry book is out, I blew through it already. Pretty good, I'd say a step up from Apocalypse Codex, much tighter.

Jesus Christ that's a huge body count of characters

Butcher needs to read Stross' dinner "date" scene for hints on how a maturing, pushing 40s protagonist should interact around beautiful but dangerous women. Now granted, Bob has been married 8 years to a gorgeous redhead (occult commando) and Harry is frequently sexually frustrated (although rarely not in a relationship), but the point stands. Compare Bob in the Atrocity Archives with Bob in The Rhesus Chart and you can see how much he's grown. With Harry... less so.

The funny thing is, both Bob and Harry indulge in Male Gaze, but Bob acknowledges (and lampshades) it.

# ¿ Jul 1, 2014 17:03

Mars4523: Feb 17, 2014

So, I've been wanting for decent fantasy books to read (alas, I've run out of Abercrombie and can't get ahold of "Half a King") and I stumbled into the indie published Daniel Faust series by Craig Schaefer. It's more or less Dresden Files with a coat of paint on top. The funny thing is, Daniel is an ambiguously criminal, amoral sorcerer for hire who is alarmingly disinterested in the professional exploits of his murderous Demon Prince's enforcer of a succubus girlfriend (and not to mention her boss), and he's still less obnoxious than Harry's first person narration can be at times. This is thanks to fewer forced and unfunny pop cultural references and much less of that gratuitous Male Gaze.

That's right. The urban fantasy series where the most prominent female character is an actual personification of illicit sex and lust has less graphic Male Gaze than The Dresden Files. Plus the protagonist's surrogate dads are a happily-partnered gay couple. And the protagonist's ex/friend/occasional partner in crime is bisexual (although she jokes that he turned her off men).

I wouldn't call the Daniel Faust series better (it has its flaws and is good but not great, but then it's only two books deep) but I am saying that I appreciated the lack of a graphic description of the breasts and nipples belonging to the resident punky minor teenaged girl.

# ¿ Aug 8, 2014 02:02

Mars4523: Feb 17, 2014

I tried reading the Greywalker series. Couldn't make it through the first book, which was just unbearably slow. Does it pick up afterwards?

I just started book 3 of the October Daye series and I'm liking it. The first two were pretty goddamn bleak, though, but this one started with scorpion tailed puppies and a child's birthday party so hopefully things are looking up. Minimal (and plot relevant) romance and gendered gaze is also nice. Why yes, the instant head-over-heels attraction the instant two people meet is an insidious glamour! This is Faerie, after all.

Speaking of first person female lead urban fantasy, the Charlie Madigan series is pretty awful. Terrible prose, exposition bricks everywhere, a kid who sounds like an adult, and long passages with female gaze turned up to 11. The covers are pretty badass though, which is a shame.

Exmond posted:

Fool Moon has the terri-bad murphy character in it where she tries to arrest Harry in it. I get what the author was trying to do but it didn't make sense after the events of Storm Front.

He kinda deserved it, though. Everyone was an rear end in a top hat in Fool Moon, but we sympathize with Harry because he's the POV character even though he's the bigger rear end in a top hat. He's totally in the wrong, and for the most part he learns from his mistakes by Book 4.

Mars4523 fucked around with this message at 01:15 on Aug 13, 2014

# ¿ Aug 13, 2014 01:13

Mars4523: Feb 17, 2014

ImpAtom posted:

I never understood why people got upset at Murphy in Fool Moon considering basically the only thing she is doing wrong is not assuming Harry Dresden's plotcock is so gigantic he should be allowed to get away with lying and obstructing a murder investigation.

This is the truth.

# ¿ Aug 15, 2014 17:13

Mars4523: Feb 17, 2014

LoG posted:

I hate Butters. He's the worst.

He is pretty terrible. I heard someone describe him as the "DM's little brother" in terms of what he's allowed to get away with. Thought it was pretty apt.

# ¿ Oct 23, 2014 14:41

Mars4523: Feb 17, 2014

Wittgen posted:

Then in Skin Game, he spends the entire book being a faithless, sullen asshat. This behavior puts his friends, innocent children, and an angel in serious danger. For this shittiness, he gets the sword of faith. What?

I'm still pissed at how after spending the book being a faithless rear end in a top hat who puts his friends in danger and leads his enemies straight to a house with children in it, he basically walks over Murphy's crippled, maimed body to claim the Sword of Faith. And to add insult to injury Murphy, who up until then had been getting poo poo done and not scoring major points for the enemy, explicitly suffers a handicap and Butcher has her figuratively prostrate herself to appease Butters' ego. But it's okay because she gets Harry's dick when she gets better? What a consolation.

I see Andi as more of a wasted character than a bad one, but she's very disappointing. She's a loving badass werewolf, but the only thing she's had to do recently is be a damsel in distress or be Butters' disproportionately hot girlfriend. Justine, who is a problematic character herself, has more agency and plot impact than Andi does.

# ¿ Oct 26, 2014 01:13

Mars4523: Feb 17, 2014

Murphy is hardly irrelevant as a muggle, considering that it's her skills that ended the big bad of Cold Days. Right time, right place, and right leveraging of gambits and available resources, and little, powerless her killed an immortal goddess.

Not to mention that most of the actual threats that Harry finds himself against are the very same baddies that Murphy has held her own against for much of the series. Ghouls, Denarians, and now Formorians are all things that she can hurt. Plus she pretty much soloed a warlock and his goons back in Aftermath. The superpower are way out of her league aren't people she's actually going to fight, and they're pretty mI hour of Harry's league as well.

# ¿ Oct 31, 2014 10:16

Mars4523: Feb 17, 2014

Clinton1011 posted:

I think it should read "ML out" as in major league out

I... honestly don't know how that happened.

# ¿ Nov 1, 2014 03:11

Mars4523: Feb 17, 2014

KellHound posted:

Yeah I gave Greywalker a shot. I gave up when it became all about the tru luw between her and her homeless boyfriend.

The Rook is on my audible wishlist right now. I'm on Rivers of London right now.

And Male protagonist is okay, just as long as the ladies in his life are fully formed people. I really liked the Felix Castor books.

Edit: I know everyone in this thread kinda hates her, but I love Murphy. My dream is to find a series about basically Murphy.

High five! I love Murphy.

# ¿ Nov 18, 2014 22:23

Mars4523: Feb 17, 2014

Wolpertinger posted:

Found a pretty strong urban fantasy debut, David B. Coe's Spell Blind, where people who inherit the ability to use magic succumb to a sort of creeping madness, the strength of their magic waxes and wanes with the moon, and for the 3 nights when the moon is full enough they go completely insane. Obviously, having monthly psychotic breaks is not good for your mental health, so most magicians who don't completely surpress their magic entirely 24/7 with certain drugs, which is apparently the norm for the vast majority of them, usually end up going permanently insane by their late 40s.

I'm just going off of a blog post by the author here, but is it just a coincidence that Justis (which is a dumb name) is a private investigator who is brought in by a female police detective with whom he is familiar with to investigate crimes involving magic, begins a relationship with a beautiful reporter, and also has a spirit that provides him with information?

# ¿ Jan 18, 2015 21:25

Mars4523: Feb 17, 2014

g0del posted:

The Dresden files started (barely) before Anita Blake turned into vampire/werewolf porn. Butcher (and others back then) might have been trying to cash in on Anita Blake, but the Anita Blake they were emulating was a long way from the badly written slashfic protagonist that she's become.

Is the Anita Blake series worth starting with the knowledge that eventually it will all turn to poo poo?

# ¿ Jan 28, 2015 00:47

Mars4523: Feb 17, 2014

g0del posted:

I enjoyed the first ones when they came out but there wasn't really much urban fantasy back then. It's entirely possible that I'd hate them if I re-read them now. If you do decide to read them, a quick check of wikipedia to refresh my memory shows that book 9 is the last one with a plot. For everything after that, well, here's a representative sample of wiki's summary for later books:

Jesus Christ. That summary hurts my soul.

# ¿ Jan 28, 2015 21:03

Mars4523: Feb 17, 2014

Dietrich posted:

You can do it!! I barely finished the second book but by halfway through the third I was hooked.

Book two is pretty godawful. Book 3 is much better, and once Harry gets his idiot head straight and starts bringing other people into his struggle the series really takes off.

# ¿ Jan 29, 2015 19:27

Mars4523: Feb 17, 2014

Marching Powder posted:

thanks for this. it should have been my question. i'll go read malazan or something. i don't have spare energy to waste worrying about whether or not the author will insert entire the red pill posts seamlessly into the book. i don't give a poo poo about murphy's cute ears, harry, although i look forward to the rothfuss, butcher, star wars episode II crossover.

Harry never goes full on MRA. His chauvinism is more of the low key, insidious kind. That said, he does get proven wrong, and there are a bunch of female characters who are pretty great.

I've been talking about Dresden, Butcher, and the gender politics of the series a while now elsewhere, and I think that the worst thing about the series is that it's written from Harry's point of view. Murphy and Thomas are both points of view who are just as awesome while being less obnoxious as Harry can be.

Of course, that doesn't explain a certain loving Jedi...

# ¿ Jan 29, 2015 22:56

Mars4523: Feb 17, 2014

Exmond posted:

I don't even think Harry goes half MRA. I think the worst part was when Harry said "Here is something I read" and we get a few pages about women vs men biological stuff.

Gender Politics in novels? I don't really understand that.

Gender (and racial) politics in Jim Butcher novels. Which basically boils down to him having his own point of view and not much empathy for those who are not straight, white, male American Midwesterners.

The guy writes fun books, but goddamn can they be cringeworthy at points.

# ¿ Jan 29, 2015 23:30

Mars4523: Feb 17, 2014

ImpAtom posted:

I can't really agree with Thomas.

Thomas is a rapist and a murderer who we're supposed to find sympathetic instead of horrible because he has a ~tragic love.~ Even when he was on the good side he raped and murdered a woman and justified it with 'she was a bad person!"

Thomas is easily the worst part of Dresden.

Yeah, true. I was thinking of more recent friendly neighborhood Thomas.

That said, current Thomas has all of his problems solved by threesomes, and his love interest was still barely legal (if not outright underage) when she was introduced. So gently caress that. The last thing I want Butcher to describe in detail is a steady stream of threesomes with a stable of nameless sex slaves.

# ¿ Jan 29, 2015 23:48

Mars4523: Feb 17, 2014

I remember her finding him pretty physically gangly, soft spoken, and fairly socially awkward (including never meeting anyone's eyes for reasons we know). Until he starts throwing magic around and he becomes utterly terrifying, in a "You are no longer the apex predator in this neck of the woods" kind of way.

I haven't read Side Jobs in a while though (and I haven't touched the earlier books in ages).

Mars4523 fucked around with this message at 01:41 on Jan 30, 2015

# ¿ Jan 30, 2015 01:38

Mars4523: Feb 17, 2014

Benny the Snake posted:

"Sexist" would be a bit strong because that would imply intentionality. Like I said, Dresden (and by extension Butcher) is just thoughtless.

You can be unintentionally sexist.

I get that Butcher is intentionally writing Harry as goony as he is. But nobody is putting a gun to Butcher's head and forcing him to write that way. We're 15 books into the series, and Harry has had plenty of time and room to grow out of his chauvinism even slightly. You know, that thing called character development. And nobody Butcher to do what he did in Skin Game, taking a capable female character and making her fail, humiliating her, beating her into submission, and having the men later stand around and comment on just how she screwed up before reducing her to a love interest for the rest of the book. (Going back a little, Anastasia Luccio was the famed commander of the wardens and a ferocious combatant, and then she got depowered, put in a younger, prettier, weaker body while her male subordinate assumed her role leading the Wardens into battle, and then made the hero's love interest and raped.)

And just in terms of being a person who is reading these books, it's getting pretty drat tiresome how Harry views the women around him, and especially how he apparently (since the framing device is that these are his case files) writes down those observations for posterity. I mean, his former apprentice could read this stuff, and what would she think?

# ¿ Jan 30, 2015 02:21

Mars4523: Feb 17, 2014

ConfusedUs posted:

Except this really doesn't happen in his other works. The women in Codex Alera were amongst the most capable and scariest of all.

I can't think of a character trait that Kitai had besides "snarky", and Amara's relationship with Bernard was creepy as gently caress. Seriously though, we had an opportunity to get into the head of a Marat but that never happened, and Kitai's development suffered for it.

There's also the fact that the only named human female member of the First Aleran started as a brothel madam, in a universe where women have a history of joining the legions as Knights. And for most part, it's only female characters whose use of powers actively harms them (remember how Isana passed out due to emotional overload every other chapter in the early books?) while the guys get to throw fire around and cut through rock with little problem.

I don't think Butcher is actively, purposefully sexist, and his writing sure is pretty fun to read, but he definitely has some impressions of "This is how women are" compared to men that he doesn't try that hard to break.

Mars4523 fucked around with this message at 21:53 on Jan 30, 2015

# ¿ Jan 30, 2015 21:49

Mars4523: Feb 17, 2014

Wolpertinger posted:

The first book wasn't amazing or anything but I feel like the series as a whole is enjoyable enough to be worth giving it a book or two. After all, this is the Dresden Files thread, which nearly nobody would read entirely off of the quality of the first book, and I liked Long Way Down more than Storm Front.

And the first 20% of Storm Front was not great, to say the least.

# ¿ Feb 10, 2015 01:21

Mars4523: Feb 17, 2014

Nemesis Of Moles posted:

Yeah that's true, maybe I'll give it another shot at some point. Is there a 'Zombie Dinosaur' moment for the Faust series that marks when the good bits begin?

I think the first book picks up a third of the way through, during the second poker game. That said, mileage may vary because I've always found the Faust series to be perfectly readable. There's no books one and two that are absolutely godawful like The Dresden Files. Also Faust doesn't spend a few books being an unlikable douchebag who dicks around his friends, and there's minimal male gaze.

ConfusedUs posted:

Your compliant is not without merit.

Most of us believe it's a deliberate character flaw in the titular character. Some believe it's the author's own voice.

I find that it's both. Dresden is a chauvinistic douchebag who leers at women too much, which can be a character design choice (although whether it adds to his character is up for debate), and the story shits on women a lot. Plus the characterization of too many female characters boils down to "Super sexy and hot for Harry".

That said, I'd check out book 4. Not only does Murphy get to do more, we also meet Elaine, who's pretty cool.

ImpAtom posted:

I certainly can't say it goes away. Almost everything Dresden involving the White Court is just kinda awful. The only positive thing I can say is that it does get better when the White Court isn't involved.

After reading The Faust series, where one of the main characters is a non sexualized, not involved in sex work succubus, reading about the White Court is just painful.

By the way I'm 90% sure that the Black Council/Nemesis thing is a retcon.

Mars4523 fucked around with this message at 03:26 on Feb 10, 2015

# ¿ Feb 10, 2015 03:18

Mars4523: Feb 17, 2014

SystemLogoff posted:

Do you have a title of one of the books? Googling "The Faust Series" just gives me every adaptation ever.

The Long Way Down, Redemption Song, The Living End, and A Plain Dealing Villain.

# ¿ Feb 10, 2015 03:49

Mars4523: Feb 17, 2014

Just finished "A Plain Dealing Villain". I got way too much enjoyment out of Harmony trolling the gently caress out of Daniel earlier in the book.

Also the jury's still out whether or not Caitlin is manipulating Daniel to ensure his commitment to her.

# ¿ Feb 10, 2015 20:37

Mars4523: Feb 17, 2014

Scorchy posted:

Part of the thing with those books is that you can't trust everything Peter says. He keeps telling the reader how clever he is and meanwhile everyone else around him, especially Leslie, is 10x more competent. He mainly gets by on pluckiness basically. That said, the jazz vampires had shown the ability to mess with people's heads so it's not that much of a leap. The actual height of his stupidity in that book is not the vampires, but the part where he tries to be clever with Abigail and manages to get outwitted by a prepubescent girl into training her in magic.

Why isn't Leslie the protagonist, anyways?

I only read the first book but I found Peter to be pretty dull.

Mars4523 fucked around with this message at 07:30 on Mar 1, 2015

# ¿ Mar 1, 2015 07:24

Mars4523: Feb 17, 2014

awesmoe posted:

Hey, nightingale is even better at things than leslie! why isn't he the protagonist?

Nightingale the veteran who has done it all before. He's the mentor, which is a vital role. But the series starts with introducing us to two rookies, where one is a good copper and the other is Peter. I think he literally ruminates on how easy the circumstances could have been flipped if he was the one to get coffee instead of her. So, why's he the lead?

# ¿ Mar 1, 2015 08:23

Mars4523: Feb 17, 2014

Oh hey, white male brown haired guy aged 20-45. How original.

Unless he's actually blond or redheaded in the text, just for variety's sake.

Whoever picked the preview passage that was posted on io9 should probably have done a better job, as without context it's less than compelling. Of course, I'm comparing that to the preview chapter of Abercrombie's Half the World, which begins with the heroine hitting some dude in the balls really hard and ends with her stabbing another dude in the throat and getting charged with murder. My standard might currently be set a little high.

Mars4523 fucked around with this message at 04:34 on Mar 4, 2015

# ¿ Mar 4, 2015 04:23

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# ¿ May 5, 2024 04:27

Mars4523: Feb 17, 2014

In the US Half a King/Half the World is marketed as adult fantasy instead of YA fantasy, even with teenaged protagonists and coming of age themes. Same with Red Rising/Golden Son, which has the rape and violence you'd expect from Spartacus. The YA books have a certain, simpler style to them, less moral ambiguity, and more basic plots. The more generic YA books also have love triangles and thinly veiled allegories to high school popularity dynamics.

That said, I'm actually seen YA Military science fiction. No, I didn't actually pick up the book to see what it was about. (Don't we have a YA thread for this topic?)

# ¿ Mar 6, 2015 03:58

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Urban Fantasy: I wish there was more necromancy and less group sex

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