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Cataphract posted:My nurgle daemon prince has been on the bench since the 6th ed codex dropped. I'm keen to put him back on the table. What's a good load out? Every time I've gone to build one they've wound up seeming too expensive. So a couple ways to do this. The CSM version is obviously gonna go wings. Mastery levels are expensive but, honestly, you kinda want them, so 2-3 of those are probably good. Armor or not will depend on how much you want to invest in him- he should be pretty immune to shooting, but in melee you still have to deal with Krak Grenades and other mid-to-high Strength attacks that can do some damage to you. Suiting up with Black Mace is really amusing, but also pushes your price through the roof very quickly and doesn't help keep you alive at all. The Daemons version is gonna want Wings, ML2-3, and then two Greater Gifts. He's clocking in pretty expensive, but unless you roll really poorly on powers/gifts he'll be all but unkillable by most things. Not taking Armor is a lot more defendable here because you can roll it from a Gift and because you will hopefully have several other ways to enhance your resilience. It still wouldn't be an awful thing to buy, though. Daemon Princes come in pretty pricey most all the time, it's just sort of the nature of the beast. 200-300pts is pretty standard for them, and there's no real way around it. Make sure you have other flying targets (FMCs or Flyers) to help keep some pressure off of them and don't always just ram them down the enemy's throat immediately. Learn when to play it cautious and when to go full-on aggression. Make use of your shooting powers if you have them- the ability to drop a template or blast right in the middle of the enemy army shouldn't be underestimated. Many of the Nurgle spells as well as Psychic Shriek are excellent for these purposes, so remember you don't have to roll all your powers from the same chart. If you get Iron Arm or Endurance early on, consider switching to another table. DJ Dizzy posted:What is the worst unit in the IG codex? I am going to be participating in an extremely low power campaign, and my current model selection doesn't really allow that. Harker and Kell both make their respective units into pretty overpriced liabilities, so there's that. Heavy Weapons Squads have a lot of firepower but are amazingly fragile and prone to running off the table for no reason- the Mortar and HB versions are especially bad. The Taurox/Taurox Prime are rather expensive for what they do, as are the Hydra and Hellhound variants. At the end of the day, though, I think Ogryn take the prize. Not only are they expensive, buy they have a lovely Ld stat (so any casualties will send them scurrying, negating the nominal value of their resilience) and they have a very poor armor save, so they're wholly reliant on their Toughness/Wounds to keep them in a fight. Add in a short-ranged gun and middling CC performance and you have a unit that is spectacularly lackluster at the end of the day, especially compared to the nigh-identical (but superior in nearly every role) Bullgryn.
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Jun 11, 2014 06:32
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SRM posted:Nah, Ogryn are much better in the new codex, even if Bullgryn make them kind of redundant. You can stick a priest with them and make them fearless and meaner in close combat. As for Rough Riders, they're T3 5+ models with no transport options. Anything and everything will tear right through them, as much as I want them to be god. Rough riders are fragile, obviously, but they are at least cheap and hit fairly hard (S5 I5 AP3 with multiple attacks on the charge.) Ogryn are just a great big pile of middling that don't actually do anything well and are slow and hard to hide to boot. In an environment full of S6+ guns with lots of shots, Ogryn are actually less survivable than Rough Riders are- compare how much damage Broadsides, Wave Serpents, Thunderfire Cannons, etc, will do to them (relative to their cost) and you'll see what I mean. I'm not gonna say Rough Riders are good, but they are at least fast and can carry Meltaguns, so that's not the worst thing in the world. Ogryn can't do anything but put S5 hits on units that are too stupid to walk away from them.
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Jun 11, 2014 07:04
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Esser-Z posted:It's MORE than the double of zero, though! Infinitely more! I'm reasonably sure the card mentions that you still need to control at least two objectives to qualify.
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Jun 12, 2014 15:15
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jng2058 posted:Yup. Punishers and Executioners get the sponsons and hull gun upgrades, basic Russes and Demolishers get a single hull mounted Heavy Bolter and nothing else. I can see an argument for a Demolisher maybe getting some sponsons just so you can shoot at things beyond 24" for effect but that's in the realm of "Have you got points left over?" and not "Always do this" All of the non-Ordnance Russ variants are actually pretty solid these days, pretty much because of their combination of price drops and the Heavy type; Punishers are wonderful bullet hoses (and with Pask manning it it can murder almost everything in the game pretty well), Executioners are great against MEQs and MCs, Exterminators are basically everything the Hydra used to be (and light tanks are gonna make a comeback), Eradicators are perfect for killing Tau and Eldar troops as well as traitorous Guardsmen, even the Vanquisher is pretty cheap and a solid way to punch holes in Knights or enemy Russes. Outside of the Heavy Flamer, all of the sponsons are quite good as well and give you a wide variety of options. And hell, Camo Netting and Dozer Blades both got cheap as well. Russes are good for a lot of things. WhiteOutMouse posted:How do these things Move Through Cover? My e-book does not really say anything different from 6th, but I thought it was fixed for some reason. Sadly it was not, so purely RAW they still just take a normal difficult terrain test and then move the result. However, most tournaments I have gone to agree that "take a test, double the result" is the fairest way to handle them, so I would recommend that as a system. You might be thinking of assaults and Move Through Cover, which now does function properly- MTC lets you ignore the -2" penalty for terrain in the assault phase.
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Jun 13, 2014 00:51
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Sulecrist posted:I asked about Scouts (non-Sniper) in this thread a month or two ago, and I have some follow-up questions for those of you who have them. Can't help much with the modeling issue; I bought a couple packs back in the day, but I don't specifically remember what I did there (and I gave my dude a Heavy Bolter anyways.) As far as Shotguns versus Bolters, it boils down to a pretty simple thing: you won't usually be assaulting with your Scouts, even if you have the option. Scouts are better than basic xenos troops in close combat, but not so much better that you'll be able to dive into them with a small squad most of the time, and with their weak WS and armor save, it's entirely possible that even something like Dire Avengers will just get a little bit lucky and punch you to death before you get to swing. Bolters get just as many shots as Shotguns will even under the best of circumstances, have an extra 12" of range (useful for pipping away from a distance as well as for pushing out the maximum kill distance you have) and benefit from AP5 should their target happen to be in the open. The rare circumstances when you will be at short-enough range to shoot and then follow with an assault- and not have wanted to be using BP/CCW instead- just aren't worth the other losses.
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Jun 13, 2014 03:10
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SUPER NEAT TOY posted:i agree, the eyes are also quite troubling Are you? Given GW's general behavior with regards to female models I am not at all. Think about it this way: those models are more progressive than the entire Imperial Guard and Space Marine model lines. Yeah. UberJumper posted:
So, two ways to handle this. If you really feel you don't have the models to play a fair game against him (and it's not a tournament or anything like that)... just don't play. Tell him "Look, dude, I don't think this is going to be a fun game for me so I'd rather not do this." Don't be passive-aggressive about it, just honestly tell him why you wouldn't enjoy it. Superheavies in small games are very unbalancing and while not impossible to beat, it requires very specific strategies to do so. If, for whatever reason, you really want to do that thing, though? It's achievable. You mentioned having at least one Vendetta- bring that. Put a Company/Platoon Command Squad or Special Weapon Squad with maximum Meltaguns inside of it. You'll be hitting side armor with Lascannons, which will do some damage, and then subsequently dropping 3-4 Melta shots into it and blasting off some more HP. A Leman Russ Vanquisher or Demolisher will also do some damage to it(with the former being preferred, but not absolutely.) Manticores are also quite excellent against them- S10 hitting side armor with Ordnance will usually strip d3 HP per turn. Scout Sentinels with Lascannons can also be obnoxious, although like most other things they are unlikely to do the job on their own. If you have access to allies, many of them can also help a lot. Drop Pods with Melta in them, Night Scythes with Haywire/Gauss, Lance weapons, etc, are all extremely dangerous to a superheavy tank. I can't really say why you or your friend are doing this, but understand that no matter how it goes down it will be extremely unbalanced in one way or another. Superheavies, when they work at all, work best in much larger games (1750+) and if he just wants to mess around with his huge cool toy, I would recommend trying something more like that instead. Edit: Oh, hrm. Well, this sort of thing is exactly why you should probably talk to whoever organized the thing and explain your concerns to them about allowing "anything goes" from the base book. 7E can be a fun game, but some of the rules straight from the book are stupid as hell. AbusePuppy fucked around with this message at 23:05 on Jun 13, 2014 |
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Jun 13, 2014 23:02
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Drake_263 posted:In actual content, I finally caved in and ordered in an Imperial Knight (and didn't buy the Codex back when it was halfway relevant, ha!) - I'm just trying to decide which one I want to build it as. The Paladin's 2-shot battlecannon sounds pretty juicy but I'm personally leaning towards the Errant with its giant loving melta cannon - S9 melta is nothing to sneeze at, and being AP1 it should also vaporize 2+ models nicely - my usual opponents seem to like terminators and centurions so that's a definite big plus. The 'shorter' range isn't exactly an issue at 36" either. My Marines are pretty much geared towards short-range combat anyhow, so I pretty much imagine the Errant spearheading the assault with its melta cannon, stomps and D-strength chainsaw arm. There are a few things I would consider when deciding which Knight to build. (Mine are magnetized so it's not an issue, but you have to make a few compromises when modeling them to achieve that, so it's understandable if not everyone wants to.) First of all, the Paladin comes with an extra Stubber. Doesn't seem like it would be a big deal, but it comes in surprisingly handy, since you are effectively doubling your "off-hand" firepower and lets you set up as many as three potential charge options in case you need to hedge your bets. Second, does the rest of your list have a lot of Melta or AP2? From the sound of it ("short-ranged firefight") you probably already do, which makes the need for the Thermal Cannon less pressing- it's not that much better than a Meltagun at killing tanks in many cases. I often field mine in xenos armies where access to Melta is very limited, but Imperial forces don't typically have that problem. Third, remember the new damage table- even Melta only has a 33% chance of killing a vehicle instantly, whereas the two hits from a Battle Cannon can potentially strip off two HP from a tank. Lastly, remember that you always have your melee weapon and Stomps to take care of different types of targets if needed- the Str D will kill most things like Terminators quite well and those S6 AP4 blasts will do a real number on hordes very quickly. At the end of the day, neither of them is really the "wrong" choice. The Paladin tends to be a bit more flexible, since it's better against hordes, light tanks, etc, without losing all functionality against heavier targets; the Errant gives you a more unique tool and can be a very good solution to some of the obnoxious new units that will be floating around (AV13/14 especially.) I personally lean slightly towards the Paladin, but they both are quite functinoal.
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Jun 14, 2014 00:50
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LordAba posted:The old crab claw ones? Dittos on this. I have never understood why people think any of the old Daemonettes look anything but horrible. I don't like the current ones particularly, but the old ones were pretty atrocious, above and beyond the "hurr tits" angle. Kaysette posted:It is bizarre to me that people seem to totally forget about gravity when it comes to drawing or modeling breasts. Boobs aren't just cones that stick out horizontally and totally disobey the laws of physics. I'm gonna tell you a huge secret about guys and you have to promise not to let anyone else know: most of their expectations of the female body are not grounded in reality in any way, shape, or form. A lot of dudes get their perceptions of what tits "should" look like from some combination of porn, comic books, and magazines, very few of which have any touchstones to what actual women look like.
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Jun 14, 2014 17:30
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JerryLee posted:Hermaphrodite, at least in common usage, can also mean both breasts plus male genitals, or just both sets of genitals, or a number of other things. Don't ask me how I've come by this knowledge Well, as it happens our culture defines masculine as the "default" and feminine as exclusively defined by a relatively-narrow set of features, so if you're crafting an androgynous/hermaphroditic look out of that mindset, you essentially just add some female features and you have, by exclusion, something that is neither male nor female. Good ol' gender norms, gettin' used all over the place!
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Jun 14, 2014 22:39
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territory at this point, but it always bothered me that Slaanesh (at least in model lines, and to a large extent the written lore as well) seemed to be about getting your crab claws and weird boobs off an assembly line, rather than diverse manifestations of excess and perceived beauty.
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Pyrolocutus posted:No one ever comments on my Slaaneshi cultists lovelingly modeled with Compelete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome or XX Male Syndrome H A W T I'd get my male gaze all over that, if you know what I mean. BULBASAUR posted:The rest of you- come play 30k mi lord I'll play 30K when an actual xenos race gets introduced. 
AbusePuppy fucked around with this message at 07:18 on Jun 15, 2014 |
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Jun 15, 2014 07:15
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JerryLee posted:Wouldn't 30K xenos be pretty much equivalent to 40K xenos? You could say the same about Marines as well. Improbable Lobster posted:It's too bad that people always go for the Sexed Up Demon Lady models for Slaneesh. Personally, I'd have demons running around with giant needles and piles of coke, but that's just me. Unfortunately Slaanesh's themes don't lend themselves well to 40K-styled visual aesthetics.
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Jun 15, 2014 08:24
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Drythe posted:What can I use Valkyies for? I see some for cheap and don't know if I want them The Valkyrie is actually a pretty respectable flyer these days- with a good transport capacity and good anti-infantry guns, it can be very versatile in its duties and the ability to go into hover mode means it can keep in the action longer than other flyers in a pinch. The Multiple Rocket Pods option is the only realistic choice for the hardpoints on the wings, though with the price bump on the Heavy Bolter sponsons they are arguable whether or not you need to take them as well. (I prefer having maximum guns available, so I say go for it.) If you have some Lascannons laying around from other projects- such as Heavy Weapons Teams, Razorbacks, etc- magnetizing one into a Vendetta is also quite easy to do. They Valkyrie/Vendetta aren't nearly as unfair as they were previously, but they are still very good vehicles. I think most IG armies can make good use of them if they want to. Business Gorillas posted:Is a CSM Tzeentch/Tzeentch Daemons army gonna be any good if I actually do this terrible hobby? CSM Tzeentch don't have a lot of hugely strong options, but they do get a few nice tricks to play around with, especially if you make use of the Black Legion or Crimson Slaughter supplements. Depending on how competitive you actually want to be, they can do some neat stuff. And everyone loves Cultists standing on a Skyshield for a 3++. Tzeentch Daemons are still pretty solid, even if you don't use them (too much) for summoning shenanigans. Spamming out Flickering Fire in huge numbers isn't nearly as strong (or possible) now, but Chaos Psychic Focus means that your Horror squads will not only have Flickering Fire but also another potentially-useful power as well, which is a big boon. Pretty much all of the Tzeentch daemons are very solid units, though Flamers and the Chariot could stand to be better (even if they aren't horrible.) Bringing in Grey Knights for counts-as is certainly a viable option and even relatively strong from a mechanical perspective; you would lose out on some of the tricks that CSM can do, but overall it will be a more effective way to generate warp charge if that's something you're worried about. I would recommend browsing the CSM and GK books to see if there are anything in either of them that strike your fancy in terms of cool mechanical effects; both of them can be useful in a pairing, but they will work in very different ways when combined with Daemons. PierreTheMime posted:As much as I love Mindshackle Scarabs, I look forward to the wailing and gnashing of teeth when it is eventually nerfed (it will be). All Necron players tack on the 15pt upgrade and call it a day. It's fantastic how long the Necron codex has translated between editions, but I can't imagine it sticking around in the next book (or at least not being 25-30pts). On the other hand, Wave Serpents, just about the only useable thing from the last Eldar book, got waaaaaaaaaay better, as did Farseers and Jetbikes. Never underestimate GW's ability to make a bad situation worse. Business Gorillas posted:What would be the best way to play 1k Sons, in Rhinos or something? I don't know anything about 40k but I'm pretty familiar with Fantasy, so I imagine that I'll pick up 40k pretty quick. 40K and Fantasy, although pretty similar on the surface, actually play very differently. Fantasy is a game of melee combat, magic bombs, and maneuvering for position to sweep the other guy; 40K is a game of shooting, special rules interactions, and holding objectives on the final turn. Experience with one will certainly aid in the other, but I think you'll find they are much more different than they seem. Thousand Sons are... they're tough. Obviously their AP3 Bolters are their big advantage, so using that is how you wanna go- Ahriman himself is actually kinda a badass now, so he can be one option; Infiltrating d3 units onto the enemy can be pretty solid if done right, but you would need to back it up with melee units to make sure you don't just get stomped on. (Thousand Sons are awful in melee.) Rhinos are not a terrible idea, either, and can actually be combined with the above- if a unit Infiltrates, they can take their dedicated transport with them. Making use of the Crimson Slaughter supplement can also help, as you get some pretty good relics from that book. To be completely honest, building a Thousand Sons list is gonna be a balancing act between including fluffy, in-theme units and including units that actually do their job. How you strike that balance will probably depend a lot on who you are playing against for the most part, but in most cases you are going to have to compromise a little bit in the name of functionality.
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Jun 16, 2014 01:25
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DJ Dizzy posted:I have come up with the greatest idea for a 2000 point unbound army. The Imperial School of Artillery! 80 Masters of Ordnance, dropping the equivalent of a tactical nuke every turn. You still have to form legal squads in Unbound, so this wouldn't work. You can't just take the Master by himself. AbusePuppy fucked around with this message at 07:16 on Jun 16, 2014 |
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Jun 16, 2014 07:14
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Boon posted:Warp Spiders are such terrible models and painting just two of them is sapping my will to warham. Do what I did, buy DE Scourges to convert into Warp Spiders. If you drop the wings, use the "faceless" heads that come with a lot of the Wych/Reaver kits, and use Haywire Blasters/Shredders, they actually look pretty good. I loved the Warp Spider model back when I was fourteen. The fact that it hasn't been updated since then is a travesty. Safety Factor posted:This is probably a long-shot, but has anyone tried running a venerable land raider since 7th edition hit? I'm thinking that with the new damage table it'd be even harder to kill though I realize it wouldn't do anything to mitigate glancing hits. Is it worth the extra 30 points on top of an already expensive vehicle? So here's the thing: your chances of being Exploded are, generally, speaking, pretty small. For Meltaguns and stuff not ignorable, but generally pretty low. Venerable is mostly gonna be useful for knocking Immobilizes and stuff down the Shaken/Stunned so that you can still deliver your cargo. And that's not a bad thing, mind you, but in 7E you're mostly going to die to HP loss, even on something like a Land Raider. Haywire, Entropic, Knights/Wraithknights, Carnifexes, Gauss, etc, will all still gently caress you up good and proper even with the Venerable upgrade. It's not awful, but it is a pretty fair chunk of points for something that won't save you from one of your more common ways to die. However, since it is a mandatory choice when buying one as a dedicated transport for a Deathwing squad, all of this is kind of moot- Land Raiders with Objective Secured are pretty badass and probably worth taking. Maybe not tournament-winning good, but when that giant AV14 box tank shocks onto an objective at the end of a game and ruins someone's day, it will all be worth it. Springfield Fatts posted:With all the new codex hoopla I have a for real, no bullshit question: why are Orks Initiative 2? I guess it sort of made sense back in 5th or maybe it was 4th, when Furious Charge would add to both Strength and Initiative on the charge. But they swing as slow than the baseline for the terrible, terrible assault armies Tau & Necrons. Well, there's two bits to this: the game balance one and the fluff one. Balance-wise, Orks are I2 to compensate for them getting a very strong statline elsewhere- WS4 T4 A2 for 6pts is HUGE, not to mention Mob Rule, Furious Charge, and Waaaaagh. If you line an Ork Boy up to something like a Guardsman or Hormagaunt, they blow them away on almost every single front- the weak Initiative value is part of why they can get away with having very good numbers elsewhere while still being priced so aggressively. The fluff version is a little more tenuous, but in my mind at least it boils down to the fact that Orks are dumb as toast. They might not be slow per se, but they are easily feinted, don't have the unnatural speed of reflexes of the Eldar, etc, and even a normal human can probably see their wildly-telegraphed blows coming well in advance. All of these factors combine to make when end up with a low Initiative value and are consistent with their general portrayal in the fiction as well as the way orcs in other media tend to be represented. Orks (and orcs) are tough and strong, but rely on being able to take their lumps and keep fighting in order to come out on top rather than any kind of fancy shenanigans or whatnot.
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Jun 18, 2014 16:39
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PierreTheMime posted:
Not to play Backseat Rules Guy too hard here, but if the above picture is where his unit landed, they would have mishapped. If you land within 1" of an enemy unit, it results in a mishap- and I am pretty sure that Termagant in the south there qualifies. Also, for future times when you come up with something like this, here's the trick: you have to do basically the opposite of what you did there. It seems really counter-intuitive, but against a huge, nasty deathstar like that, what you actually want to do is kill everything else in his list, then do your best to delay and avoid it. Obviously the Warp'ead made that difficult, but what I would've done there is to charge it with a unit of Termagants while the rest of the army scattered to the four winds (all while shooting, naturally.) Your 'Gants should at least live through your own assault phase, as long as you keep them in Synapse obviously, and that prevents him from moving any on his own turn. On your turn, you pull back with your units again and shoot him some more. At that point, yeah, he can chase something down and murder it pretty easily, but so what? He can only realistically charge one unit per turn, and you have more units in your army than there are turns in the game. If you try and fight a unit like that head-on, you are playing his game- and that's a game he will probably win, because his whole army is designed for it. Instead, force him to do things he doesn't like to- waste time running after you, killing units one-by-one, etc. Make him play the mission- you've got Objective Secured, he doesn't, so you stand a very good chance of being able to steal objectives right out from under him. You have a plethora of units, including at least one FMC that he has zero ways to deal with- avoid him like the plague and plop down on an objective on the final turn. Never, ever, go toe-to-toe with a deathstar if you have any other option. It's what they want you to do, and unless you are immensely good at dealing out damage, it's not going to work. Drake_263 posted:Power of inertia. I think you're actually right here, although not for the reasons you mention. (Unless I'm mistaken, pistol weapons never used their shooting profile while in close combat, at least as far back as 2nd Edition.) Plasma Pistols during the 2E through 4E era were extremely good for a couple of reasons, but the most important one was that pistols worked differently back then. It used to be that you double "doubletap" with a pistol just like you could with a Rapid Fire weapon (although you couldn't assault after doing so.) So within its somewhat-limited range, a Plasma Pistol was just as good as a Plasmagun- and since back then you couldn't fire past 12" with a Plasmagun if you moved anyways, the loss of range wasn't actually as big of a deal as it is now. Plasma Pistols essentially turned all of your sergeants and HQs into extra special weapon troopers, and during that time period extra plasma in your list was clutch. That's actually why Kharn, Mephiston, and many of the other named characters have Plasma Pistols- back when those guys got written up, everybody who was anybody brought one to the field. Now they're just expensive liabilities, but apparently people on the dev team still remember them the way they were a decade ago and continue pricing them as such.
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Jun 20, 2014 15:34
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Saalkin posted:I think 5th was a str3 for open tops. This is correct. Explosions have slowly been nudging up in lethality since 5E. If Ghazgull takes a LoW slot that's not actually a big deal unless he has the same "bonus VP for hurting me" thing as the Escalation units. Hell, all it really does is make him not take an HQ slot, so you gotta fill that with something else. None of the other Ork stuff seems like a huge deal one way or another, so we'll see how it plays out, but the random table for Mob Rule doesn't excite me.
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Jun 21, 2014 06:51
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Either Blood Angels or Space Wolves (Woofs have a slightly older codex, but it has aged better.) However, it's really just speculation currently- it would be surprising to see either of them not get an update soon, but we don't know anything specific that actually serves as evidence for them being so.
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Jun 21, 2014 13:13
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panascope posted:Some of the Imperial Guard relics are really cool but goddamn sticking them in a company command squad just seems like painting an even bigger bulls-eye on them. Space Marines and Chaos have the most useful ones so far I think, just because their HQ options are so much more survivable. Definitely true for the IG ones- you can't just stack an extra 40 or 50pts onto a T3 5+ guy and assume it's gonna work out good. It doesn't help that IG is extremely limited in who is allowed to take which ones as well. SM and CSM both get some really good "relics," but don't forget the Tau or Eldar ones, either- I'm sure most folks are familiar with the so-called Buff Commander, who typically runs with three different relics at once, and the Mantle of the Laughing God for 2+ rerollable cover saves. Basically everyone except DA and IG got good relics, is what I'm saying.
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Jun 22, 2014 18:15
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mmj posted:I'd say the tyranid relics are pretty average at best. Only two I ever ended up using were the norn crown and miasma cannon, and the crown is really too expensive for what it does. I wish one of the relics was just what two sets of scything talons were in the old book. I'd run that on a trygon or trygon prime for 30-40 points even though it'd be really expensive. Yeah, I kinda forgot Tyranids because their relics are so bad they basically don't even exist. The IG ones can at least do some neat stuff, but the Tyranid ones are both boring and weak. Proletariat Beowulf posted:Here's a rules conundrum: template weapons cannot fire snap-shots. If I have a Battlewagon full of Burnas get shaken, can they fire overwatch? They cannot. If a model is unable to fire snap shots, they will be unable to fire template weapons for any reason, even despite having special permission to otherwise fire during Overwatch. Think of it this way: if a model has a special rule that says it is allowed to assault after deep striking, but chooses to Run (which prevents it from assaulting), it wouldn't be able to assault. If you have "you may do X" and "you cannot do X" rules affecting you at the same time, the "cannot" rule will usually take preference. Killgore Trout posted:Couple of quick questions as I'm looking to possibly start an almost entirely deep striking AM/MT army: You could take Heavy Weapons Squads (i.e. the three-model units) without a Platoon, but you could not simply take a single Heavy Weapons Team. Unbound does not use the Force Organization Chart, but you still have to field legal units- so you couldn't take a unit of thirty Tactical Marines, for example, or a Devastator Squad with six Lascannons in it, or anything else that would normally be impossible. It also doesn't let you take more than one of a Unique character. You can, however, take models without their required accompaniments (such as taking a Dedicated Transport without any squad to go inside it, or take a Techmarine without any other Marine HQ units.) You can also ignore restrictions on number of a unit fielded (for example, taking more than one Death Company) or combinations that would normally be illegal (such as fielding a Librarian alongside Black Templars.)
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Jun 26, 2014 17:11
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Tuxedo Jack posted:Question: how effective is a Warhound Titan with two Vulcan Mega Bolters at 1750? The MegaBolter is gonna be a pretty weak choice against his CSM because it's S6 AP3 and thus won't really hurt his Helbrutes or Terminators very well (and the Princes are presumably going to be flying, so...) If you have weapon options, the Plasma Blastgun is excellent against most kinds of targets and the Inferno Cannon will annihilate most troops out there. The Megabolter is pretty good against Daemons, though, so you could argue for one of those alongside the Blastgun. Honestly, his list sounds pretty bad. Depending on what you have available, you could probably smash him really hard. With a little more detail on what you/they have, it wouldn't be hard to craft you a list.
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Jun 28, 2014 00:32
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ANAmal.net posted:That's the one, specifically the 6x4 Urban Combat. I like it because a) I didn't have to build and paint a whole table worth of "the ground", and b) the roads are 12" out from the long edges, and 24" from the short ones, so I don't have to measure for deployment zones in either direction. I'm not sure if you noticed, 'cause it's kinda subtle, but that particular mat also has the Vanguard Strike lines marked on it- the flares crossing one direction and the pieces of paper in the other. It's very cool.
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Jul 1, 2014 02:41
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You draw your cover save from the center of the barrage, yes.
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Jul 1, 2014 02:59
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LordAba posted:I think the Mob Rule complaints are overblown, much like Synapse for tyranids was when it came out. Oh man, remember when people loaded up on all the synapse they could because hormagaunts could lose half a unit to a LD <7 check? Yeah, but do you actually ever see Hormagaunts on the table? I don't, because you can't ever afford to be out of Synapse with them for even a turn because the unit will cripple itself half the time. Reecius is certainly speaking from a bad experience there, but I think that Mob Rule is gonna end up being fairly punishing. Lots of armies have the ability to force multiple morale/pinning checks per turn (Tank Shock, etc) and that is gonna end up hurting small squads of Orks pretty badly. Even just the usual "Trukk explodes, take some casualties, take a pinning check, take a morale check" sequence is likely to snipe off 2-3 extra models, which on a small unit like that becomes very painful. Mob Rule is pretty inarguably worse than before, and considering they took several other nerfs alongside it it seems rather gratuitous. That doesn't mean the codex is weak or worthless, but neither does it speak well for its overall design ethos when the defining universal rule for the army ends up being such a major downgrade from its previous version.
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Jul 1, 2014 03:21
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Well, you'll pass your Instinctive Behavior check less than half the time (Ld6) and then half of those you'll eat your own face off, but even just lacking Fearless is a pretty huge problem as well- Hormagaunts will typically lose combat to most enemies, even the weaker ones, they just tend to triumph in the end by virtue of lots of bodies + Fearless; if you don't have one or both of those things, you're in serious trouble. I don't have a problem with the basic idea of the Mob Rule table at all- it's nice that dropping below 10 bodies doesn't just automatically ruin a unit and the ability to shrug off Pinning is handy. But I feel like it ends up causing more casualties than it should; if the hits had been S3, or if it did d3 hits, or something else, I'd feel a lot better about it.
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Jul 1, 2014 07:13
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Scions are a pretty decent army, rules-wise, although they don't function terribly well by themselves once you get to larger (1500+pt) games. Taking Scions as a primary army and then allying in something else (IG, SM, etc) would be pretty fine, or vice versa. They are, however, pretty pricey overall- you're paying a pretty large number of dollars for each of those five-man squads, and you will probably want to add in some transports for them as well, which can add a lot more money.
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Jul 2, 2014 04:12
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Von Humboldt posted:Anyone have advice on running Deathwing? I go into this knowing that it is far from the most effective army, and that I'm pretty much just going to scoop to about half of the local lists. However, I picked up around 2k points of Terminators and Deathwing Knights for like $40 (besides scoring 500 points worth of Tau, 10 old starter DE, an old metal Juggernaut of Khorne, and a busted rear end Dreadnought,) so I'm not going to be bothered if I die over and over. Terminators are cool, and I always wanted to play DA even if they are bad. Basically, what's the best way to squeeze something mildly effective out of Deathwing? My advice would be to run Belial, one or two Ravenwing squads to bring dudes in with zero scatter, and then as many units of Deathwing as you can fit. Assault Cannon is probably your go-to heavy weapon, although an argument can be made for Plasma Cannons on some squads I think. Avoid taking any melee upgrades, as they aren't really worth the shooting you give up- you need to hit the enemy as hard as you can as early as you can in order to make things work. Remember you can start with zero models on the board if you want to now. Allying in an Inquisitor in place of the Ravenwing in order to get Servo-Skulls is arguably a better idea, although that leaves the awkward question of where to put the Inquistor (as Deathwing Assault works only if ALL models in a squad have it.) Ghost Hand posted:Both of these Codexes are fine. The real problem is the Eldar codex. Really, the problem is Wave Serpents. Everything else in the book is fine. I would still say the Tyranid book is pretty poorly-designed; it has one strong build (Skyblight) and most everything else in there is pretty garbage for anything resembling competitive play. Orks... it remains to be seen. There's definitely things that are obnoxious, but they have some solid units and abilities that may be good enough to craft an army out of. It will also depend on how the 7E meta shapes up, as that still is pretty up in the air.
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Jul 3, 2014 08:05
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The "special" Ork FOC is a trap. It's not even close to worth giving up Objective Secured for.
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Jul 3, 2014 11:58
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Yeah, if you're playing with limited detachments then maybe you might have a reason to take it, but straight from the book it's really a "why bother?" kind of thing. One extra HQ and three extra troops? No thanks, I'll take a second Combined Arms detachment and get two HQs, six troops, and three of every other slot instead.
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Jul 3, 2014 12:35
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krushgroove posted:Since there's a bit of talk about the Tyranid dataslates: Skyblight is probably the only one that is strong enough that I would go to a tournament with it (and it's goddamned strong in 7E), but Endless Swarm, Living Artillery and the other shooting one whose name I forget are all decent enough. Honestly, most of the Tyranid formations are pretty okay for what they are, they just end up featuring some lackluster units in many cases, which doesn't help any. Master Twig posted:Where I made skyblight swarm really shine was throwing in a Trygon Prime. Remember that the Gargoyles, as Jump Infantry, are allowed to Deep Strike when they come back. koreban posted:Also Tau. Both codices skew towards excessive power with little downside that it makes the others seem poo poo by comparison. Eh, Tau have never been as good as people think they are. Their main thing last edition was being able to coast off of psychic buffs to negate all of their weaknesses and hand out goofy buffs to bunches of different units on the cheap. With no more Battle Bros, the only really amazing thing about them is that they basically have the only worthwhile Skyfire units in the game right now. The High-Yield Missile Pod on Broadsides is pretty undercosted, but the need to push forward into midfield in the new edition is a huge issue for them and their fragility in melee is still a lot more relevant than people like to admit. Most of their shooting really isn't even any stronger than comparable units from other codices- Guard, SM, Eldar, and Necrons all have units that are on-par with anything Tau can offer, and they typically come with superior armor, Leadership, and/or melee stats.
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Jul 3, 2014 19:51
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HiveCommander posted:You're missing the point entirely. The reason people hate Ghaz being a Lord of War is because the other player gets four victory points for killing a model that is squishier than a Space Marine bike captain. That's a huge liability to put on the table. Actually it's one Victory Point, and it's arguable whether that is even the case for Ghaz.
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Jul 4, 2014 06:32
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HiveCommander posted:Sure? Destroying a Lord of War grants a bonus and Ghaz being practically the only model in the Ork codex that isn't ld7 means he becomes your warlord by default. Your Warlord doesn't need to be the highest Leadership in your army anymore, so Ghaz isn't required to be your Warlord. And the Lord of War bonus is one VP for every three full HP/wounds, so Ghaz only gives up one there even if that is the case. (As I said, it's arguable at this point.) The real penalty is that having Ghaz gives your opponent +1 to Seize, which is rather annoying to deal with. I won't say I like him being a Lord of War, but it's not half as penalizing as most people think.
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Jul 4, 2014 07:29
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DO IT TO IT posted:At least if The Swarmlord was a Lord of War, they'd probably make him a little better. Right? Right? Ha ha no, they'll take away a couple more abilities from him and increase his price again. God forbid they make him a Gargantuan Creature, he'd end up WS2 I1 A3 or somesuch for 550pts. Lord Hypnostache posted:I might be blind, but I'm flipping through the rulebook and I can't find where it says anything about Lords of War awarding extra VPs. This is where the debate comes in over whether Ghaz gives up extra VP- in the Escalation rules, it explains how LoW work and notes that there are a couple extra things going on if one is present, including the extra secondary objective that awards VP for damaging the LoW. One presumes that all of the LoW in that book still follow those rules, since 7E doesn't say otherwise; however, Ghaz, as the first LoW printed outside of the scope of Escalation (the FW LoW units all refer back to Esca for how to use them) can be argued to simply be a "normal" Lord of War choice that occupies the slot in the Combined Arms detachment but has no additional rules baggage attached. It's not really clear either way, hence the confusion. Sistergodiva posted:Thanks! It kinda sucks that the one model I like the most is the worthless one If you like Fire Warriors and are going to be starting off with some smaller games, a Cadre Fireblade is actually a pretty solid choice- he comes with a BS5 Markerlight, the Split Fire rule, and when sitting with a squad of FW in the backfield, he drastically increases their firepower. Ethereals are pretty good for "anchoring" a Tau force together and helping overcome their weak Leadership values; they are also excellent if you want to run a more mechanized force using transports and such. Commander suits are really, really flexible and have access to some of the best wargear in the game, so it's hard to go wrong with one of them in virtually any army you want. Shadowsun and Farsight are both essentially specialized variants of the Commander for particular types of armies. I'm not a big fan of the other three named characters (Darkstrider, Aun'va, Aun'shi) so I would say stay away from them unless you're completely in love with the models and/or fluff. Tau are blessed with one of the most flexible codices out there- there's hardly any "bad" units in it anywhere. Now, you can certainly build a bad army from it by combining them incorrectly, but if there's a unit you like, you're hard-pressed not to be able to include it in an army. Looking to expand your army, I would suggest trying to decide on a general theme or strategy before saying exactly what you should get next, since what will be most useful will depend a lot on what sort of force you are building. Do you want a mechanized list full of tough tanks that spill out Fire Warriors to smash the enemy at point-blank range? Devilfish and Hammerheads are your obvious next choices. Do you want a zippy, battlesuit-based force that can't be pinned down to one location? Crisis and Riptides will serve you well. Do you want a more traditional shooting army based around powerful weapons and units mutually supporting each other? Broadsides and Kroot will be your go-tos. You might also consider what kind of allies you might want for your army- Tau have several good choices and work well with allies, from Eldar to Necrons to Chaos Marines to various breeds of Imperials, and all of these can influence how you build your force. If an army stands out as a strong second place behind Tau in terms of aesthetics you like, you can probably work some of them into your final build. If all of that's too much to take in quite yet, you can't go wrong with Crisis or Broadsides. If you get Crisis, though, make sure you magnetize them- there's just too many weapon options to get stuck in one configuration.
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Jul 4, 2014 17:06
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Lungboy posted:Just to check, did ICs lose Move Through Cover and Skilled Rider as standard? They did, since both of those things "echo" to the squad now. Proletariat Beowulf posted:Another rules question: my group is convinced that super-heavies don't care about difficult terrain, and that they can't be tarpitted/stuck in CC. Were these true in 6th, and are they true now in 7th? All superheavies have Move Through Cover, so everything except walkers/gargantuan creatures will be able to plow through terrain at full speed. The rules are a little unclear on the other two, but the general consensus is that they make a Difficult Terrain check on 3d6 and double the result, so moving 2"-12". They are no longer immune to being stuck in melee, at least the ones that can fight at all (i.e. not standard superheavy tanks, aircraft, etc); however, they do have Stomp, which can be pretty devastating to most troops. The "can't be locked" thing was from 5E and has not been in use for some time.
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Jul 4, 2014 17:26
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Ignite Memories posted:Yeah, it's pretty calculated how everything people actually used has been completely dumpstered. Yeah, because Mek Gunz, Lootas, MANz, and Shoota Boyz are totally unusable now. People say this every time a new codex comes out, but it's really not true. The power level changes in units are essentially arbitrary- sometimes you get a nerf like the Tervigon, and sometimes you get an already-popular unit like the Wave Serpent just shooting through the roof. And it's the same for new units as well; people always remember stuff like the Riptide or Vendetta being kings of the world when they were released, but they forget about the Pyrovore, the Nephelim Jetfighter, the Chariot of Tzeentch, etc. I wouldn't put it past GW to sometimes push the power level of new units to try and make the kits sell- but if they are trying to do so, they are certainly not doing a very good job of it. Seen a lot of Stalkers or Ogryn on the table recently? Probably not. Indolent Bastard posted:Other than Ghaz, Trukks and Kans, what got substantially shittier? Trukks and Kans had been middling-to-poor for an edition now already, so you can't really count either of those. (Also, after doing some further reading in the FAQs and such, Ghaz does not give up VP for being wounded, because that rule has been removed from general use when Lords of War are present.) The biggest nerfs were largely to wargear- the Deffrolla, Cybork Bodies, KFF, and a few other things lost significantly in the update. Now, some of these were 100% expected- anyone who though the Deffrolla was gonna keep doing d6 S10 hits to everything in the game was dreaming- but they certainly hurt some of the codex's options. Lungboy posted:Can't you just run a 2nd detachment now? Cheap HQ + 2 minimum units of Grots = 3 more HS slots. This is pretty fine in casual circles, but most tournaments are clamping down on multiple CADs because there are some really abusive possibilities with it. (6x Annihilation Barge, 12x henchmen squads in Rhinos, 12x Herald of Tzeentch, etc.) Heavy crowding of one particular FoC slot also tends to be indicative of poor codex design; I wouldn't go so far as to say that is necessarily the case for Orks yet, especially with the edition still so new, but it's not an encouraging sign.
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Jul 5, 2014 17:47
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Daedleh posted:No-one's saying they're useless, just that they didn't need toning down. They were only heavily used because they were the last units that Orks had which could stand up to more recent army lists. They were far from overpowered. Yeah but with the exception of Shoota Boyz, all of those units got better or stayed the same. There certainly were units that got worse (like the Battlewagon), but it was hardly some universal "everything good is bad and everything new is good" rule.
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Jul 5, 2014 22:22
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Raphus C posted:These folks don't "play" the game, they just push models around with gloved hands admiring the paint jobs. Imagine turning up to play against them with bare plastic. I would show up with unpainted, unprimed, misassembled models from third-party retailers. I would have legs in arm sockets and hands cradling heads in firing positions. I would have tanks with treads upside down and turrets that weren't even in the slot. My boltguns would be backwards and my lascannons upside-down. My army would be a dazzling rainbow of mechanical incompetence and I would use it to utterly, utterly crush their beautifully-painted fluff armies. My grey tide of incompetent buffoons would roll them up before me and leave pretty ashes in their wake. I would be 2nd Legion and my presence in the game would be so embarrassing the group would never speak of me or even admit my existence.
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Jul 6, 2014 01:55
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AgentF posted:People say that a unit's price cost and usefulness aren't necessarily correlated because there are expensive models that are rubbish. What are some examples of super useful models (the must-takes of a codex) that are really quite cheap (for GW)? Wave Serpents, Night Scythes, and Annihilation Barges are three units that spring to mind as frontrunners- all of them are reasonably-cheap kits (on par or below the cost of similar models) that are extremely high performers. The Daemon Prince kit, since it can essentially make two full models if you find a way to replace the legs with something, is an extremely good bargain and has been a staple of several different armies for some time now. Kroot Carnivores come in a large box and haven't seen a significant price increase or size decrease for quite some time now. The Transcendent C'tan is "cheating" a bit in this respect, but it's one of the most powerful models in the game right now and it is basically an add-on bit for another kit. That's not even looking to conversions and other options, which can make a lot of kits significantly more cost-effective. Things also change if you look at a dollars-per-effectiveness-per-point metric, but that's getting into some really complex numbers. Hollismason posted:In other news I've yet to lose with my Daemon Bomb/Summoning army and am starting to think it may be a bit much. It's kind of boss and I look forward to seeing Bay Area Open and Nova results if someone takes a serious army there. I almost went with a summoning/psychic-based list for BAO, but I wasn't sure I would have the models painted in time and enough experience with the army to really play it well, so I decided on something else instead. I still think it's an incredibly strong army, though.
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Jul 6, 2014 06:44
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WhiteOutMouse posted:Important distinction, the force fields (kustom or mega) are invulnerable saves from shooting attacks. So those serpent shields and Str D weapons can suck it. Str D weapons don't ignore cover saves anymore, except on the 6 result (which doesn't care about any kinds of saves.) Also, Lemongrab, yessssssssssssssssssss.
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Jul 6, 2014 15:26
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It's also hilarious because most versions of Kill Team include restrictions that make it functionally or literally impossible to field a Tyranid army, with the possible exception of "as many Genestealers as I have points for I guess." Because who cares about armies that aren't Space Marines? Those aren't even a thing.
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Jul 7, 2014 12:13
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| # ¿ May 14, 2024 14:40 |
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PierreTheMime posted:Hey man, you can field Tyranid Warriors! Those are good, right? A lot of versions of Kill Team have rules prohibiting models with three or more wounds, psychic powers, and monstrous creatures. But hey, just run 40 Termagants and assume Instinctive Behavior will always work out, right? Also a Tyranid Warrior is as tough to kill as three Space Marine Scouts, costs slightly less, has worse shooting and worse melee, and has fewer useful upgrade options. So no, not good, even in Kill Team. Safety Factor posted:What're y'all's thoughts on razorbacks? I saw that Forge World is putting out a couple of new turrets and now I have it in my head to run three of the things in a mechanized list. Is the extra firepower worth the points? They're just as fragile as rhinos, but they lack the expendability. I mean, if a rhino blows up it's no big deal as long as your guys got to where they were going and it was only 35 points. A razorback's going to run 75 points if you want good weapons on it and the guys inside will be under-manned though a special weapon and a matching combi for the sergeant will give them a defined role. I typically run a couple of rhinos in my lists out of habit so I'll be using them as proxies for the time being to test these things out. I just figured I'd ask if anyone's had some success with them. With the increases to cost in the new SM book, Razorbacks are a pretty underwhelming choice in most cases for them- however, some of the older books can make decent use of them. The main problem is that AV11 is pretty fragile now that Hull Points are a thing, so spending a bunch of points to slap guns on something that dies pretty easily is not a strong plan. LasPlas does put out a lot of firepower, so that's not a terrible option if you are really looking to go that direction, but in the most general sense I wouldn't recommend it. One thing that can help it work is running the Void Relay Network, which can give you up to three Void Shield Generators that put out AV12 bubbles- by overwhelming your enemy's anti-tank firepower, you can help insure that more of your transports stay alive. Definitely scratch-build your VSGs, though, as $150+ per pop isn't something you want to sink for. (I based mine on the Vengeance Weapon Batteries, which seems like a much more reasonable size for the model.)
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Jul 7, 2014 16:41
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