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R. Mute posted:You know, for all those posts you made about the Belgian mentality, this must be the most Belgian post there is. In any other country, they expect their country to do well. They expect their country to win. And most of those other countries don't have a team like we do. But here we are, patting ourselves on the back for a completely underwhelming performance, while I'm being overly negative for asking us to play on our level. I don't think that was a correct reading of what I tried to say. Asking that we play at our level is reasonable, absolutely, but not even the best teams in the world can do that consistently, maybe with the exception of Spain in the 2008-2012 period. I never disagreed with the notion that Wilmots is a limited manager and that we should still try to improve our game. We might be more in agreement than we think.
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Jul 8, 2014 08:27
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tetsman posted:Maybe you're overestimating the skills of the Belgian players. Personally, I think that our defensive players (Courtois, Vertonghen, Kompany, Van Buyten, Alderweireld, Witsel) are extremely good and that we're probably top 4 of the world in that department although they don't contribute that much on offense. On the other hand, our offensive players are quite overrated, especially since Benteke was injured. Just looking at the players at their club and their intrinsic quality, we're hardly top 8 of the world (Germany, Netherlands, Spain, Argentina, Uruguay, Brazil, France, England, Chile and Colombia are probably at least on par with our offensive players on paper). Yes, all our attacking players are good, but since Hazard is playing like crap for us and Benteke is missing we don't have anyone that scores goals easily let alone two or three like most teams in that list and Lukaku/Origi are far from world class strikers yet (Lukaku is too limited against teams that park the bus, regardless of manager, to be considered world class in my opinion). We have ridiculous potential in attack though. That's quite irrelevant though. When we are dissapointed we didn't beat Argentina it's not because we think our players are intrinsically better than Argentina (that's really not the case, they have so many crazy good players) but because we felt that Argentina played like crap so far despite their talent and if we had played as well against them as against the USA it should have been possible. quote:Belgium have a bunch of talented young players who were never going to make much as a team. You can fire Wilmots and hope to get a dark horse top top manager, but it would have taken a SAF or Mourinho to get the kind of results Belgians seem to have expected. I agree with this. For all this talk about "tactical training" and "looplijnen", on this WC there are plenty of great teams with extremely good managers that do all these things and yet still have just as much trouble scoring against teams that park the bus (and even against teams that don't). It's probably important and probably something Wilmots should do, but acting like we'd suddenly score 5 against Russia if only the manager had explained those (usually very creative) players exactly how to run is just being ignorant. Free kick and corner training is nice, but how the heck did everyone manage to forget how to take a corner or free kick in such a short time in the first place? We scored from multiple corners in the qualification campaign. Walh Hara fucked around with this message at 09:33 on Jul 8, 2014 |
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Jul 8, 2014 09:24
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vyelkin posted:But the team is obviously a work in progress, and fitting all those good players into a system that works and utilizes them to the best of their abilities is going to be a hard ask for anyone, and something that takes time. To go from not qualifying for Euro 2012 to the quarterfinals of the 2014 World Cup is good progress, though, and this Belgium team is young enough that they still have a lot of time to improve. This is crap. If you're presented with an opportunity you either take it or you don't. 'Next time' doesn't count. Belgium were in an unique position to reach the final and they couldn't manage it, which is disappointing no matter how you look at it.
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Jul 8, 2014 09:28
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Is this some advanced, Belgian form of trolling going on? Rar rar, our small country with a few good players and no history of winning anything went out in the quarter-finals of the World Cup against a country that had something close to home advantage and two of the three best players in the world, sack all managers.
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Jul 8, 2014 09:32
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They should sack the manager though. He was poo poo.
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Jul 8, 2014 09:42
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Messyass posted:This is crap. If you're presented with an opportunity you either take it or you don't. 'Next time' doesn't count. Belgium were in an unique position to reach the final and they couldn't manage it, which is disappointing no matter how you look at it. Every single country in the World Cup is "in a unique position to reach the final" and 30 out of 32 teams don't manage it. Belgium is not a footballing country on the same level as Argentina or the Netherlands. I'm sorry but it's true. Either one of those countries, had they been eliminated in the quarterfinals, would have more reason to be disappointed with their performance than Belgium.
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Jul 8, 2014 09:51
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Agreed, we're just happy to be here. But we were all here back when we lost to Finland and an owl landed on our crossbar 3 years ago. Oh no hang on what's this we've got four free kick specialists with no set piece training alongside people they only play with 7 times a year. Guess we're just not good enough oh well
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Jul 8, 2014 10:27
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Walh Hara posted:Hazard is playing like crap for us quote:I agree with this. For all this talk about "tactical training" and "looplijnen", on this WC there are plenty of great teams with extremely good managers that do all these things and yet still have just as much trouble scoring against teams that park the bus (and even against teams that don't). It's probably important and probably something Wilmots should do, but acting like we'd suddenly score 5 against Russia if only the manager had explained those (usually very creative) players exactly how to run is just being ignorant. Free kick and corner training is nice, but how the heck did everyone manage to forget how to take a corner or free kick in such a short time in the first place? We scored from multiple corners in the qualification campaign. the jizz taxi posted:We might be more in agreement than we think. edit: quote:Bondscoach Marc Wilmots zei ons eens: ‘Als België een wedstrijd wint, is het feest. Als Duitsland na zes zeges de finale van een WK verliest, is het land niet tevreden. Daar moeten we naartoe.’ R. Mute fucked around with this message at 13:30 on Jul 8, 2014 |
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Jul 8, 2014 12:38
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R. Mute posted:The fact that you're now comparing the Belgian response to getting to the quarter finals to the Colombian response is utterly telling. For one, their players - while pretty good - aren't of the same calibre as ours. They had exactly one world class player before the tournament and he got injured. Everyone knew they had a decent team, but nobody expected them to tear it up as much as they did. And that's what they did. They played incredibly well, despite their road to the quarter finals arguably being much more difficult. Not only did they exceed expectations, they also played as well as they could - they arguably even played above their level. If our team played as well as the Colombian team did, relatively speaking, we'd have won the world cup. If they had played as well as we did, they wouldn't even have gotten a point in their group. How many world class players do you believe Belgium have? Because I don't see any more than one in that squad either. Belgium, for a lot of people, were dark horses. But that had just as much to do with their group, and probable matches after the group, as it did the quality of the squad. That said, they're far from the first team at a World Cup to stroll through a relatively weaker group and then stutter to a halt because they never got into top gear (Argentina are actually experts at this). The team has been typified by a very strong defence and grinding out very efficient, 1 and 2 goal wins where the opposition are never really allowed an attacking foothold and late goals are in evidence. That has been Belgium through qualification, the groups etc. The only result that really sticks out as a sore thumb from that pattern is the 4-2 friendly victory over the Netherlands, which incidentally, is Belgium's only "result" against an opposition most would consider a contender for the World Cup. This is a young team, with a high potential ceiling, but it's also an inexperienced team. I think you've bought far too heavily into the feel-good hype that surrounded the squad, instead of dogmatically looking at the team and realising, yes, Belgium had a chance of making the final this year, but it required luck, everything firing at top cylinder, and in some cases, an opposition star failing to shine. To be quite honest, this is a bit like reading a thread on England circa 2002-2010, when absolutely everyone but the English thought they were good, but semi-finalists at best, and even then reliant on outside factors.
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Jul 8, 2014 15:19
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Hazard, Kompany, Courtois, maybe Witsel on a good day. My point there was that while the rest of our squad generally aren't world class, they're still pretty drat good and overall better than Colombia - individually speaking. What I meant when I said we'd have won if we played like Colombia is primarily about tactics, but it's also about generally over-performing. Colombia played better than could be expected of them at this point and hopefully in the future they'll settle into that level. But while the point was that better tactical play would help us, it probably wouldn't have gotten us past the semis. To make it any further or - heaven forbid - to actually win the drat thing would require our squad to be at a level where they just aren't at yet. Also, I never bought into the hype. My posting has been negative since day one. Hell, even if Wilmots suddenly becomes a tactical genius and our players start performing brilliantly, I'm not convinced we'll ever win anything. That's just how football works. As far as I'm aware, I haven't posted that it's coming home just yet.
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Jul 8, 2014 15:47
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Sport Voetbalmagazine agrees with you guys. Article in dutch here. I kinda agree, but at the moment all I can think about is how much fun I've had during this world cup. Everybody really got together to watch the games, the atmosphere was amazing. People who are normally not that interested in football suddenly all talked about it. After all thos years of negativity, that's really refreshing.
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Jul 8, 2014 16:28
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On one hand, most of the criticism in that article is correct. There should be more work on corners and freekicks for example. On the other hand, the way it is written makes me almost hope that Argentina destroys the Dutch (but that'd require them to play a non boring match so of course they won't). Honestly, I imagine that if Mark Wilmots had reached the semi final by winning penalties after a 0-0 against Costa Rica like the Dutch did, you'd all be complaining that we didn't start footballing until extra time, couldn't get an attack working until the very end and that we shouldn't have had so much trouble, etc, etc. But since Louis did the hugely impressive and won 0-0 against Costa Rica against all expectations we should look up to the Dutch! That there is criticism is fine, what ennerves me is that people act like everything Wilmots did is bad (despite his formation and starting 11 being the best possible) while they glorify the alternatives in ridiculous fashion (despite Holland not managing to score a goal against Costa Rica that should have had a penalty being way worse than us not managing to score against a bus parking Argentina that's a goal ahead). The whole "yeah, I know my expectations are ridiculously high and unrealistic, but since the manager didn't meet them he should be fired" aspect is pretty galling as well. Does anyone honestly think the only reason the Dutch are in the semis and we're not has to do with the manager? Hah! This is not football manager 2014. quote:Hazard, Kompany, Courtois, maybe Witsel on a good day. Kompany and Courtois yes, since they're probably in the top 5 in the world for their position, but Hazard and Witsel aren't. Hazard might become one, but he's not there yet since there are so many in his postion that are still (way) better: Messi, Neymar, Robben, Ribery, James, Muller, Reus, Iniesta, Ronaldo, Bale, etc etc. Witsel the same.
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Jul 8, 2014 16:59
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I'd argue that Hazard deserves to be mentioned among the best if only because he routinely carries Chelsea (admittedly a small time club) to victory, especially last season. It's a vague concept, anyway. I also think the comparisons between Wilmots and Van Gaal are kind of dumb, especially when they focus on the Netherlands getting to the semis. I don't see anyone actually calling for Wilmots to be fired, however. That's pretty much what the 'third youngest manager in the tournament' bit was about (a neat little fact I didn't know, myself.) e: copied from the photo thread: 
R. Mute fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Jul 8, 2014 |
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Jul 8, 2014 17:18
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Kompany is, in my opinion, the only genuinely world class player Belgium have. The others may yet reach that status, but they're not there yet. If you're going to give Hazard (never mind Witsel) that rating, then there's quite a few in the Colombia squad that merit it too. Colombia finished 2nd in CONMEBOL qualifying, 2pts ahead of Chile and 2pts behind Argentina. I don't think they over performed at all at the World Cup, I think people just vastly underestimated how much of a difference playing in South America could/would make, and are generally ill-informed about players based there. That aside, I can understand frustration with Wilmot's tactics - instead of allowing an attack to flourish from a mean defence, he de-clawed it in the name of caution and reduced each game to "decisive moments". But that's also the tactics Brazil are using right now, the Netherlands used last World Cup etc. The issue about set-pieces is two-fold though - Belgium didn't seem to have any set tactics for them, but equally so, the delivery was frequently woeful. That isn't a tactical issue that arises at international level, that's either technique or confidence.
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Jul 8, 2014 17:24
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If you're talking about world class players as in "could walk onto any team in the world and improve it" then Kompany might be the only one, but the vast majority of the Belgian squad does meet the "starter on a top team in a top competition" standard. And by that standard, the Belgian team was probably the best in the world cup. There's nothing wrong with getting out at the quarter finals, but if you have arguably the best squad in the tournament you'd hope for more than 30 minutes of decent football.
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Jul 8, 2014 17:47
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ma i married a tuna posted:And by that standard, the Belgian team was probably the best in the world cup.
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Jul 8, 2014 17:50
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ma i married a tuna posted:but the vast majority of the Belgian squad does meet the "starter on a top team in a top competition" standard. And by that standard, the Belgian team was probably the best in the world cup. Brazil, Germany, France, Spain, England, Argentina also have their majority of starters at a top team in a top competition? Italy and Colombia as well if you count Serie A as a top competition (and you should). By no metric does Belgium have the best team in the competition. Belgium get's a 7/10 for their performance on this WC from me. Good enough but not great with room for improvement.
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Jul 8, 2014 18:16
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My rating for the Belgian team is: one smiley sticker
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Jul 8, 2014 18:27
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If Belgium had played as they did against the states and lost 0-5 to Argentina I'd be happier, since then it would at least look like they tried to break down their opponent.Walh Hara posted:Brazil, Germany, France, Spain, England, Argentina also have their majority of starters at a top team in a top competition? Italy and Colombia as well if you count Serie A as a top competition (and you should). By no metric does Belgium have the best team in the competition. And all of those teams would've wrecked us, since our kryptonite is a team defending, and they have the forwards that use that one chance perfectly. The biggest thing that has annoyed me these last couple of days is hearing that Argentina didn't deserve the win. They blocked everything, stalled time, and still managed more shots at goal as the Belgees. I think everyone was just looking forward to facing the Dutch in a semi-final. Because then the country would've gone absolutely ape poo poo.
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Jul 8, 2014 19:54
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Punc posted:I think everyone was just looking forward to facing the Dutch in a semi-final. Yeah I think people were really anticipating/fearing this. The Clit Avoider posted:That aside, I can understand frustration with Wilmot's tactics - instead of allowing an attack to flourish from a mean defence, he de-clawed it in the name of caution and reduced each game to "decisive moments". But that's also the tactics Brazil are using right now, the Netherlands used last World Cup etc. This is now a funny post.
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Jul 8, 2014 21:58
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