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Powercrazy posted:e: nm. I'll just say his target obviously wasn't "women." He had a lot of issues that had an extremely complicated intersection on his psyche. But women weren't "the true victims" or whatever dumbass SJWs are arguing. He was extremely misogynistic and also profoundly mentally ill. His targets were "people more socially successful than me" with a bias towards women because of his misogyny. People with obvious agendas online choose to play up the misogyny and ignore the obviously severe narcissism because it fits their narrative. Describing him as "the natural evolution of men's attitudes towards women" is utterly absurd.
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May 27, 2014 22:01
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Evil Sagan posted:The reason Elliot Rodger's hateful motivation matters is because it's the natural next step to the sort of cultural male entitlement that begets the sort of harassment and threats that many (all?) women experience. Linking it to MRAs in particular is too small. Not every person that threatened Anita Sarkeesian or encouraged her to kill herself for having the temerity to criticize video games was an MRA. For some reason people are angry... violently angry... about women and the rights of women. Whether or not you agree that particular examples of misogyny in television or books or video games or whatever are relevant or accurate, you can't deny that we are creating a culture that sees the every-day oppression of women, for being women, as being generally an okay or encouraged thing. When it "gets out of hand" like with Elliot Rodgers it is somehow seen as occurring in a vacuum, or being credited to some other politicized issue of choice such as guns. That sounds great but men are far more likely to be the victim of homicide than women. If we want a more equal society than we should be trying to prevent more men from being killed. Complaining about being threatened online (which is hardly unique to women, although certainly more severe) strikes me as being extremely myopic.
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May 27, 2014 22:02
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Powercrazy posted:But everyone here and most people everywhere else, are well aware of cultural problems of "masculinity" and "sex" and "drugs" and "rock and roll" and countless other "cultural problems." i disagree with your overuse of quotation marks 
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May 27, 2014 22:02
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EasternBronze posted:That sounds great but men are far more likely to be the victim of homicide than women. If we want a more equal society than we should be trying to prevent more men from being killed. Complaining about being threatened online (which is hardly unique to women, although certainly more severe) strikes me as being extremely myopic. And men are overwhelmingly the ones murdering other people, maybe we should focus on getting men to murder people less.
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May 27, 2014 22:06
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A Winner is Jew posted:I don't think anyone here has a problem laying the deaths of thousands killed in terrorist attacks around the world squarely at the feet of the Wahhabi sect of Islam while knowing that all of Islam is not to blame. In the same way that Elliot Rodger is a unique MRA extremist? Can we not say that Wahhabi Islam is the "the natural evolution of Islamic attitudes towards western society"?
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May 27, 2014 22:06
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Powercrazy posted:But everyone here and most people everywhere else, are well aware of cultural problems of "masculinity" and "sex" and "drugs" and "rock and roll" and countless other "cultural problems." There is nothing uniquely interesting about Elliot other than he actually killed a bunch of people and society had singled him out as a potential problem but did nothing. And maybe people would pay more attention to the substance of your argument if you didn't simultaneously hand-wave away the pernicious culture of misogyny that we're all being made even more aware of now as if it had no part in encouraging him to become the problem he became.
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May 27, 2014 22:07
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Amergin posted:NOTE: I am not saying misogyny is good or should be ignored. I just think that some people connecting the MRA->killing women dots are digging a bit deep for that conclusion. I understand your point and agree that it's not fair to say "All MRAs are one rejection away from a violent shooting spree" because that's painting things with quite a wide brush; but it would be absurd to ignore the connection between the misogynistic principles of the MRA/PUA movement and the killer's motives and goals.
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May 27, 2014 22:08
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Mechafunkzilla posted:He was a spree killer, I don't know if 'terrorist' is the right term here. He didn't seem to care about creating fear among the greater population to further an political or religious agenda, he just wanted revenge for perceived slights against himself. I wouldn't call a serial killer who targets only women a 'terrorist' either.
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May 27, 2014 22:09
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The media coverage is odd to me with this. If they're going to cover mass shooters, I think that personally it is somewhat satisfying to see the derisive tone vs. the Mystique of Insanity that they like to drape over killers, but at the same time the coverage seems oddly patriarchal and misogynistic in a way I can't kind of place. I guess "no wonder he's a killer, he's a poorly endowed virgin!" seems like a dangerous message to be sending. It's like, the worst things that they normally point out about "normal" mass shooters (how awful is it that that's a thing) are considered to pale in comparison to his virginity.
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May 27, 2014 22:09
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Top Bunk Wanker posted:He was extremely misogynistic and also profoundly mentally ill. His targets were "people more socially successful than me" with a bias towards women because of his misogyny. People with obvious agendas online choose to play up the misogyny and ignore the obviously severe narcissism because it fits their narrative. Describing him as "the natural evolution of men's attitudes towards women" is utterly absurd. Right. He was absolutely misogynist and I will even give the zealot's the benefit of the doubt and say he was straight-up trying to murder more women then men, but ultimately so what? He also drove a BMW. What next?
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May 27, 2014 22:09
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Top Bunk Wanker posted:He was extremely misogynistic and also profoundly mentally ill. His targets were "people more socially successful than me" with a bias towards women because of his misogyny. People with obvious agendas online choose to play up the misogyny and ignore the obviously severe narcissism because it fits their narrative. Describing him as "the natural evolution of men's attitudes towards women" is utterly absurd. Yeah - the guy posted in a bodybuilding forum where 'alpha'/'beta' terminology was used, and he was widely mocked, with at least one of the posters commenting on how he came across like a serial killer. Obviously he was a massive misogynist, but of an abberant type, to the extent that he was considered a complete outcast on a forum which most feminists would regard as containing a great deal of misogyny itself.
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May 27, 2014 22:11
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I agree with the thesis that MRA culture was a big influence on him, but at the same time it doesn't seem like the core issue, but rather one of a number of factors that caused the shooting spree. I feel like making it the core issue and using it to try and get rid of the MRA movement will massively backfire, because when that was tried with gun control after Sandy Hook, a lot of people who were on the fence went completely insane and backed the NRA. Instead, we should really look at the whole picture: if we'd had better mental health infrastructure in America, if bullying and social isolation weren't as common as they are (it's immediately obvious from looking at his manifesto that a lot of his issues stem from being bullied throughout his youth), if guns weren't as easily accessible as they are, and if the MRA movement didn't exist, this wouldn't have happened. Taking aim at just one of these factors and ignoring the rest only gives the other side ammo- they suddenly have a valid argument that their pet issue wasn't the root cause, and it'll make a lot of uninformed people take their side. (If you want to get rid of MRAs, the best thing to do is educate them. A lot of them aren't insane potential shooters, they just discovered legitimate issues and didn't gravitate towards feminism because of the frankly absolutely awful public perception of it; if you educate those people, then all that will be left are the true believers and redpillers, and then we can start trying to make their existence illegal. Starting out from the perspective of "all MRAs are insane murderers" is just going to further alienate the ones who can be saved.)
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May 27, 2014 22:12
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Let's remember thought if someone claiming to represent a group that we like lashes out like this, its not representative of us in anyway, unlike THOSE PEOPLE.
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May 27, 2014 22:12
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Munkeymon posted:And maybe people would pay more attention to the substance of your argument if you didn't simultaneously hand-wave away the pernicious culture of misogyny that we're all being made even more aware of now as if it had no part in encouraging him to become the problem he became. Yes I'm sure you and others with your views would pay more attention to him if he entirely accepted both your premises and conclusions. I don't find that a particular convincing counterargument myself.
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May 27, 2014 22:12
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Powercrazy posted:Right. He was absolutely misogynist and I will even give the zealot's the benefit of the doubt and say he was straight-up trying to murder more women then men, but ultimately so what? He also drove a BMW. We really do need stricter scrutiny around who can drive a BMW. They're legit rear end in a top hat magnets. Pretty sure I saw his car from his Facebook page in the CNN coverage. That was a weird moment for me for some reason.
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May 27, 2014 22:13
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Amergin posted:If MRA and PUA groups attract hundreds/thousands of men to them on an annual basis, but one man in that group with a history of mental illness goes on a shooting spree, why are we essentially saying that MRA and PUA ideologies assist in creating this violent outcome? Video games generally don't explicitly center around the idea that 50% of the earth's population are inferior and/or evil. They also generally don't explicitly focus on teaching people how to treat women as objects to use for your own amusement and how this is how things should be. While there are video games, music, films and media in general that does this, the MRA/PUA stuff is explicitly aimed at building a worldview around its ideas, and thus there's a far stronger causal link between a MRA activist being a misogynist shitlord because of MRA ideology than there is between some dude who's played GTA being a misogynist shitlord because of video games.
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May 27, 2014 22:14
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LGD posted:Yes I'm sure you and others with your views would pay more attention to him if he entirely accepted both your premises and conclusions. I don't find that a particular convincing counterargument myself. That's not at all what I was getting at, but thanks for trying.
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May 27, 2014 22:15
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Cerebral Bore posted:Video games generally don't explicitly center around the idea that 50% of the earth's population are inferior and/or evil. They also generally don't explicitly focus on teaching people how to treat women as objects to use for your own amusement and how this is how things should be. That's weird because my (admittedly limited) exposure to MRA stuff is more "men are persecuted too!" and "let's focus on equality, not making women BETTER than men!" rather than "women are evil"/"women are inferior." I can see why MRA could attract "women are evil" types but I think describing MRA as a whole as an organization that encourages "women are evil" is a bit of a reach. EDIT: However saying PUA objectifies women is totally understandable. However if women are objects for me to acquire why would I want to destroy them? Because I'm mentally ill.
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May 27, 2014 22:18
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Slobjob Zizek posted:This guy would have still been a loser, though. Unless we could have convinced him that his involuntary celibacy should become voluntary via joining the priesthood or something. Or we could have told him to lower his standards.  bbbut the open dating market is so hard on mennnnnnnMaybe we could have like, not served him this ideology on a platter. Getting this fuckwad laid would not have helped, can we stop saying this? Also the "sexual market" is not a real thing.
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May 27, 2014 22:18
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Amergin posted:That's weird because my (admittedly limited) exposure to MRA stuff is more "men are persecuted too!" and "let's focus on equality, not making women BETTER than men!" rather than "women are evil"/"women are inferior." Unfortunately, when you scratch beneath the surface, it turns out that MRA ideology isn't nearly as much about alleviating the problems facing men as it is about maing up fanciful explanations about how those problems are really caused by women.
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May 27, 2014 22:20
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EasternBronze posted:In the same way that Elliot Rodger is a unique MRA extremist? Can we not say that Wahhabi Islam is the "the natural evolution of Islamic attitudes towards western society"? Elliot Rodger just had a higher kill count. There have been plenty of instances of MRA linked attacks on women, including one just over a month ago. How many people need to be killed before we realize what the SPLC already does, that Men's Rights Activists are a loving hate group. e: SALT CURES HAM posted:I agree with the thesis that MRA culture was a big influence on him, but at the same time it doesn't seem like the core issue, but rather one of a number of factors that caused the shooting spree. I feel like making it the core issue and using it to try and get rid of the MRA movement will massively backfire, because when that was tried with gun control after Sandy Hook, a lot of people who were on the fence went completely insane and backed the NRA. I'm 100% ok with this view point. MRA's wasn't the entire picture here and I think it's foolish to think so. I do think that they were one of the primary reason for this though with the other two being a severe lack of mental health infrastructure and the stigma against people with mental health issues combined with lax law enforcement since if you look into this it's obvious they hosed up big time in this case. A Winner is Jew fucked around with this message at 22:25 on May 27, 2014 |
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May 27, 2014 22:20
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Obviously, sexual dynamics are an unknowable magic that springs out of a well of consent and European-style education, the idea that some people are more attractive than others and leverage that in certain ways is complete bunk.quote:At the time of print, he said it’s unclear if the incident was related to the victim’s involvement with the opposition group. Well that's conclusive proof isn't it! quote:Elliot Rodger just had a higher kill count. I'm quite certain Islam can be linked to more deaths in America than Elliot Rodger, I just want to confirm with you before we go down that road. EasternBronze fucked around with this message at 22:23 on May 27, 2014 |
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May 27, 2014 22:20
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we, as human beings, have done plenty of cool things and i think it'd be another gold medal if we could change our culture towards women and the mentally ill
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May 27, 2014 22:21
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Amergin posted:That's weird because my (admittedly limited) exposure to MRA stuff is more "men are persecuted too!" and "let's focus on equality, not making women BETTER than men!" rather than "women are evil"/"women are inferior." MRA's are basically the shock troops of mysogony. MRA stuff that discusses how men are persecuted generally tries to point out how they are somehow MORE persecuted than men, and misses the point that this is the result of patriarchy, which harms BOTH genders. Also, Amergin posted:"let's focus on equality, not making women BETTER than men!" The idea that feminism is somehow about making women better than men is already some fairly slanted poo poo, and if you think that was somehow reasonable then I'm gonna guess that maybe you're not catching all the sexist stuff in what you're reading.
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May 27, 2014 22:22
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Amergin posted:However saying PUA objectifies women is totally understandable. However if women are objects for me to acquire why would I want to destroy them? Objectification is always part of a process of dehumanization and devaluation, and it's easier to inflict violence on people you have dehumanized.
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May 27, 2014 22:22
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A Winner is Jew posted:Elliot Rodger just had a higher kill count. How about literally the same day. In the same state. tbp posted:It's time to educate men. While I know I'm responding to tbp, men are fairly un-receptive to education on this type of thing. Zeitgueist fucked around with this message at 22:26 on May 27, 2014 |
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May 27, 2014 22:23
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It's time to educate men.
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May 27, 2014 22:24
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Cerebral Bore posted:Sorry dude, I don't get what you're getting at here. Care to elaborate how exactly it would be better? twodot fucked around with this message at 22:28 on May 27, 2014 |
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May 27, 2014 22:24
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EasternBronze posted:Unfortunately Rodgers is a Hapa/Asian-American and as one myself I would appreciate you not whitewashing his experience/silencing our voices and claiming his identity for whiteness, thank you. He identified as being of the snootiest white nobility. His whiteness was what entitled him to blond women. Whiteness was a huge deal for him in his own words.
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May 27, 2014 22:24
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I've sat down and thought about this for a long time, after hearing about the gun usage on the sorority girls, and when it comes down to brass tacks, I think we've really got to change our culture of misogyny and teach men not to rape, instead of teaching women not to be raped.
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May 27, 2014 22:25
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Real hurthling! posted:He identified as being of the snootiest white nobility. His whiteness was what entitled him to blond women. Whiteness was a huge deal for him in his own words. Well than he's wrong. Just as I'd be wrong if I identified with the snootiest Scottish clans and demanded a gorgeous red-headed girlfriend. Its almost as if he wasn't fully there in his head! Makes you think...
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May 27, 2014 22:26
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Can't we flat out admit that American culture is designed to make 20 something men who haven't had sex really insecure? I don't think Elliot Rodger was targeting just women, he was targeting how society viewed him. Now, thanks to this little prick and his MRA friends, 20 somethings are about to get even more alienated- regardless of their views.
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May 27, 2014 22:27
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Anybody watch lovely tv and can tell us the general landscape of the public conversation that I assume is now happening about this stuff? Is it like 40% guns, 40% mental health, 20% misogyny? Just my blind guess.
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May 27, 2014 22:29
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jneen posted:
The unemployed just need to accept being unemployed! Welfare is good enough for them! Shocking news: those that are deemed unimportant or unwanted by society don't always take kindly to that characterization. Also dating markets are absolutely real -- arranged marriages are not at all common in the US.
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May 27, 2014 22:29
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Slobjob Zizek posted:The unemployed just need to accept being unemployed! Welfare is good enough for them! Young men who have been marginalized by society aren't victims because of their privilege. Its as simple as that.
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May 27, 2014 22:30
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EasternBronze posted:I'm quite certain Islam can be linked to more deaths in America than Elliot Rodger, I just want to confirm with you before we go down that road. What's your point? That Wahhabi Islam has killed more people in the US than Eliot Rogers? I'm not disputing that at all.
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May 27, 2014 22:30
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Job Truniht posted:Can't we flat out admit that American culture is designed to make 20 something men who haven't had sex really insecure? I don't think Elliot Rodger was targeting just women, he was targeting how society viewed him. Now, thanks to this little prick and his MRA friends, 20 somethings are about to get even more alienated- regardless of their views. This is 100% true -- I couldn't help but laugh at his threat video. He sounded like a child pretending to be a Bond villain. OF COURSE no one respected him.
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May 27, 2014 22:31
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EasternBronze posted:Young men who have been marginalized by society aren't victims because of their privilege. Its as simple as that. We're not talking about just Elliot Rodger, though.
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May 27, 2014 22:31
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Slobjob Zizek posted:The unemployed just need to accept being unemployed! Welfare is good enough for them! Holy loving poo poo analogy, also dude probably could have had a sexual partner if he wasn't a fairly horrible person. "Guys who are angry because they think women owe them sex" is a tad bit different from "capitalism is rigged".
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May 27, 2014 22:33
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EasternBronze posted:Well than he's wrong. Just as I'd be wrong if I identified with the snootiest Scottish clans and demanded a gorgeous red-headed girlfriend. So are you opposed to examining the culture, whether of society in general or the specific groups he associated with, that shaped this attack? Do you feel there's no point in examining militia culture, or antisemitism?
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May 27, 2014 22:33
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