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Tezzeract posted:It's not a superficial response if you want to control the terrorism of school shootings. We ban all sorts of dangerous materials on airplanes, so why not hotbeds of school shootings - suburban towns. Sure really smart people will find a way, but you'll catch a lot of these amateur school shooters who are abusing the system because it's easy to do so. Sure just install security screening checkpoints at the entrances to “suburban towns.”
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Jun 12, 2014 16:34
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Kiwi Ghost Chips posted:Sure just install security screening checkpoints at the entrances to “suburban towns.” This has been done in inner city schools for things like knives and guns.
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Jun 12, 2014 16:43
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There was a spree killer very close to me not that long ago. http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/jun/06/van-rampage-killer-detained-cardiff It hit home with me pretty heavily as two of the areas he targeted were right by my sister's school and right by my grandmother's house. Had I not been ill that day, I probably would have been involved somehow. He was plowing into people with a van and was seemingly deliberately targeting women and children. This is pretty much the worst incident of this type that happened in Wales in recent memory, I believe, and I have no doubt in my mind the body count would have been much higher if he had even a single gun. Yeah, spree killings happen everywhere, it just so happens that when they happen in a culture with an unhealthy relationship with guns more people tend to end up dead. I guess there's no real correlation at all, though.
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Jun 12, 2014 17:39
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copper rose petal posted:It's weird how that totally-not-realistic danger to anyone has resulted in the deaths of hundreds of people a year. I guess all that media hysteria finally hit critical mass and everyone died from paranoia. How many people are killed by the police in a year?
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Jun 12, 2014 20:14
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You mean with their guns?
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Jun 12, 2014 20:41
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moths posted:You mean with their guns? Excited Delirium and "while in police custody" counts too don't worry 
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Jun 12, 2014 20:53
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about 1,000 in the US, about 1/2 completely innocent
Modest Mao fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Jun 12, 2014 |
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Jun 12, 2014 22:05
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Technically 100% presumed innocent unless they're shot as the judge is reading their sentence.
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Jun 12, 2014 23:02
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They key point about guns versus pretty much any other potential way of killing people is that only with a gun do you reliably end up dead when the cops catch you. As a method of suicide, a gun spree killing probably has a higher success rate than most. A movie-style suicide vest might work better, but they don't exactly sell those in Walmart. I suppose another way of looking it is that, of the ~20,000 people who intentionally kill themselves with guns each year, 99.9% don't consider taking some random strangers with them a plus. For those who say this is ultimately an unimportant issue, can you give a compelling reason why US culture couldn't drift in the direction that that 99.8% became, say, 70%?
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Jun 13, 2014 12:14
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Oh! I know this one! Because enacting legislation would be wasteful and frivolous. Also, we should rather be focusing on reducing poverty, aaaand we don't want to inconvenience those responsible gun owners! And it's all really really complicated, really. Unlike it stays exactly how it is, that way there's certainly, absolutely, positively no way that 99,9% becomes something like 70%! Sorry, couldn't help myself 
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Jun 13, 2014 16:17
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radmonger posted:I suppose another way of looking it is that, of the ~20,000 people who intentionally kill themselves with guns each year, 99.9% don't consider taking some random strangers with them a plus. Because it's baseless speculation? Senselessly wanting to kill other people is really rare and isn't increasing.
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Jun 13, 2014 16:23
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moths posted:Technically 100% presumed innocent unless they're shot as the judge is reading their sentence. Innocent as far as the law is concerned isn't the same as innocent as a matter of fact. Being acquitted or convicted of a crime doesn't actually the change the fact of the matter as to whether or not you actually did it. I think this line of reasoning actually diminishes the victims of police brutality, because saying all people killed by cops were innocent because they weren't yet convicted equalises them all. If we can't draw a distinction in terms of guilt/innocence between those who were shot for justifiable reasons of public safety (ie. they had weapons and were threatening people) and those who were shot simply because they looked 'suspicious' (read, non-white) or because the police were trigger-happy when nothing untoward was actually occurring then we're unnecessarily obfuscating the fact that police in the USA kill a shitload of people without good reason, and that those people are far greater victims than those who were shot because they were pointing shotguns at shopping mall patrons or whatever. Talking about guilt and innocence at all is an obfuscation, really. Police don't shoot people to punish them for crimes or to meet out justice. They shoot people for a variety of reasons, most often because they think it's urgently necessary to prevent harm to themselves or others. The problem is that police are a) far too keen in general to shoot people, and so look for potential harm when there often isn't any, and b) aren't very good judges of what constitutes an immediate threat to public or personal safety.
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Jun 13, 2014 16:28
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Kiwi Ghost Chips posted:Because it's baseless speculation? Senselessly wanting to kill other people is really rare and isn't increasing. 12 murder suicides per week may be rare but it's not insignificant.
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Jun 13, 2014 17:32
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Destruction of patriarchal capitalism would solve this and many other problems.
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Jun 13, 2014 17:38
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radmonger posted:They key point about guns versus pretty much any other potential way of killing people is that only with a gun do you reliably end up dead when the cops catch you. That'd be an exciting world, where 30% of suicidal people went on killing sprees. Maybe Charlie Brooker could do an episode of Black Mirror about such a world.
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Jun 13, 2014 17:39
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radmonger posted:For those who say this is ultimately an unimportant issue, can you give a compelling reason why US culture couldn't drift in the direction that that 99.8% became, say, 70%?
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Jun 15, 2014 16:55
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SedanChair posted:That'd be an exciting world, where 30% of suicidal people went on killing sprees. Maybe Charlie Brooker could do an episode of Black Mirror about such a world. And remember, it's not a spree killing if he just kills his wife and child before killing himself. Has to be 4 dead not including the suicide before its a mass shooting so anything less than wife plus three children doesn't count.
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Jun 16, 2014 07:04
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McAlister posted:And remember, it's not a spree killing if he just kills his wife and child before killing himself. Has to be 4 dead not including the suicide before its a mass shooting so anything less than wife plus three children doesn't count. Wait wait wait now. Multiple murders across multiple locations over time makes for a spree killing. A mass murder/shooting has to happen all at once in generally the same area. So he has to do it all at home in one go for it to count.
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Jun 16, 2014 07:31
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MRA are no more responsible for this than gun owners are for shooting sprees or Muslims are for 9/11. There millions of nerdy guys in highschool every day who feel like they get "friendzoned." Only one of them has gone on to serially kill people over it. Rape culture isn't the issue. This guy was just insane.
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Jun 16, 2014 07:48
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the posted:MRA are no more responsible for this than gun owners are for shooting sprees or Muslims are for 9/11. There are also lots of "insane" people who don't go on mass shootings, though.
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Jun 16, 2014 08:01
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Look guys, it's pretty easy. Eradicate all poverty and want, and cure all mental illness and violence won't happen again. Typical liberals, obsessed with fanciful pie-in-the-sky ideas like "regulating guns", something that no other developed nation has ever managed to achieve, no sir, definitely not ever. Let's try something simple, like banishing misery from humanity's existence.
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Jun 16, 2014 08:03
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the posted:MRA are no more responsible for this than gun owners are for shooting sprees or Muslims are for 9/11. Would you agree with the following statements? quote:"Neonazis are no more responsible for the Jewish cemetary shooting than gun owners are for shooting sprees or Muslims are for 9/11. quote:"Militias are no more responsible for the Oklahoma City bombing than gun owners are for shooting sprees or Muslims are for 9/11. Also, Roger isn't the first person to have done something like this, as has been shown many times in this thread. Also you're using your terms loosely, first saying "mras" aren't to blame, then saying "rape culture" isn't the issue, as if those two terms mean the same thing or something.
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Jun 16, 2014 08:03
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VitalSigns posted:Look guys, it's pretty easy. Eradicate all poverty and want, and cure all mental illness and violence won't happen again. How would that have helped in Rodger's case? There's no way regulations would have screened him out unless you're proposing that mental health reporting be increased.
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Jun 16, 2014 08:14
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SedanChair posted:How would that have helped in Rodger's case? There's no way regulations would have screened him out unless you're proposing that mental health reporting be increased. Maybe. In Sweden, mental health history is included as part of the background check. And even getting a permit to buy a pistol requires being a member of a shooting club for 6 months and training to be a sport shooter. Considering Rodger couldn't even be assed to case his target for things like "do they lock the drat door", pretending to be a marksmanship enthusiast for half a year....  But we could argue about that counterfactual all day: I was really responding to the posters claiming that gun control is some impossible thing to do...despite every other developed country doing it. You could argue there are better methods...but we can do two things at once. You could say the political will doesn't exist....but if you're going to take that tack you might as well drop the poverty angle then because while white people will vote (and have voted) for gun control when they're scared of black people, a solid majority of the country would burn America to the ground and piss on the ashes before they'd spend the money it would take to lift everyone out of poverty. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 08:46 on Jun 16, 2014 |
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Jun 16, 2014 08:42
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the posted:MRA are no more responsible for this than gun owners are for shooting sprees or Muslims are for 9/11. I'm glad you've decided not to think about things, but this may not be the right subforum for you.
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Jun 16, 2014 08:59
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VitalSigns posted:You could argue there are better methods...but we can do two things at once. Boy am I sick of hearing that unthinking bullshit phrase. We can do a lot of things that are misguided and idiotic. Gun control is one of them and thinking that we could get to the point of Sweden is just a joke.
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Jun 16, 2014 09:10
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VitalSigns posted:a solid majority of the country would burn America to the ground and piss on the ashes before they'd spend the money it would take to lift everyone out of poverty. When that group intersects with those advocating gun liberalization; you've probably found the most dangerous group in America. A time needs to come when those who intellectualize about policy are going to have to put the boot down and get rough with these people. However, with the established left stagnating in right-of-centre politics and the established right becoming even more entrenched on the far-right this might get worse before it gets better.
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Jun 16, 2014 10:36
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People who believe they have an inalienable right to guns to overthrow the government should it ever be necessary haven't done so yet, even with a bona fide socialist Muslim in charge who wasn't even born in the country.
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Jun 16, 2014 13:06
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Edit: Not worth it
Who What Now fucked around with this message at 13:16 on Jun 16, 2014 |
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Jun 16, 2014 13:14
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Nah shut yer yaps, it aint misogerny that done hosed up that kid, nor the goddamn guns, it was on account of him being coddled by his parents that done it, I reckon. http://psychcentral.com/blog/archiv...54taWaJlxc.like E: Some Person on the Internet posted:Cognitive researchers have shown that during our formative years, our brains are constantly at work creating a mental model of the world. We use this mental model to help us navigate the world; it aids us in anticipating and adapting to the world. In cases of extreme parenting, rather than aiding the individual in adapting to the world, it sabotages them. drat kids 
murphyslaw fucked around with this message at 13:39 on Jun 16, 2014 |
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Jun 16, 2014 13:36
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VitalSigns posted:Look guys, it's pretty easy. Eradicate all poverty and want, and cure all mental illness and violence won't happen again. Cool surface-level poo poo post. Really a lot of substance and deep comprehension of the conversation on display here. America is different from other countries. You might scoff and scorn at the whole idea of "American Exceptionalism" but it is indisputable that there are more guns in America than any other country that has successfully passed heavy regulations on guns. Passing heavy regulation in America is going to be an entirely different task than passing heavy regulation in a country that barely had guns anyway. That said, my position all along has been that gun control doesn't address why this happens in the first place for both mass shootings and everyday gun violence you dishonest retard. murphyslaw posted:Nah shut yer yaps, it aint misogerny that done hosed up that kid, nor the goddamn guns, it was on account of him being coddled by his parents that done it, I reckon. I do find it interesting that it accurately places the blame for hosed up kids on the parents here, instead of just going "Heh, kids those days right?" If you're going to complain about the new generation, look to the generation that created them. It's easy to quote that apocryphal Aristotle thing about the laziness of the new generation and take the easy SA-accepted line of dismissing what's being said simply because they fit the shape of Fuckin' Kids!!! but when I read stuff like this: quote:One of my group members had been overly indulged by his mother. All of us in the group were frequently disturbed by his extremely self-centered behavior. it seems clear to me that there was a definite failure of parenting there and it's not so difficult to extrapolate that situation to Elliot Rodger. I don't know, what do you think?
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Jun 16, 2014 14:04
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But again, why does every other kid who's coddled and told they're special not flip out and kill people?
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Jun 16, 2014 14:15
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murphyslaw posted:Nah shut yer yaps, it aint misogerny that done hosed up that kid, nor the goddamn guns, it was on account of him being coddled by his parents that done it, I reckon. How does someone who has never heard of confirmation bias and thinks that a bunch of half-assed anecdotes counts as evidence get to write about psychology?
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Jun 16, 2014 14:21
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SedanChair posted:But again, why does every other kid who's coddled and told they're special not flip out and kill people? It's a huge conservative taking point that if every kid gets a trophy it'll crash the trophy economy. It only makes sense that this also leads to murders, exactly like gay marriage and separating church from state did.
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Jun 16, 2014 14:46
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SedanChair posted:But again, why does every other kid who's coddled and told they're special not flip out and kill people? Because those kids grew up learning proper trigger discipline and weapon safety protocols.
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Jun 16, 2014 14:46
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edit: dp
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Jun 16, 2014 14:47
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SedanChair posted:How would that have helped in Rodger's case? There's no way regulations would have screened him out unless you're proposing that mental health reporting be increased. SedanChair posted:Boy am I sick of hearing that unthinking bullshit phrase. We can do a lot of things that are misguided and idiotic. Gun control is one of them and thinking that we could get to the point of Sweden is just a joke. "There's no way regulating guns could have prevented this!...Well okay, Sweden's regulations would have but I don't want to." All right then. Look, we don't have to go Nordic overnight, when there are reasonable regulations that could prevent MRA-fueled rampages in the future. For example, a Rodgers section on the application to screen out MRAs. At some point during the application, a leggy blonde cheerleader with bodacious breasts will walk straight up to the short scrawny black guy in the corner of the store for some ardent making out. Anyone who locks himself in the bathroom to cry his little eyes out is added to a perma-deny database.
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Jun 16, 2014 14:55
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VitalSigns posted:"There's no way regulating guns could have prevented this!...Well okay, Sweden's regulations would have but I don't want to." Ha! So you want to go toe-to-toe with the ADA lobby? According to this article, they Iowa had to grant the blind concealed carry permits after a recent liberalization of CC law. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/09/08/iowa-grants-gun-permits-to-the-blind/2780303/ Ps, if you are really declaring that we should ban those with any history of mental illness from owning guns, LOL. This is America, good luck.
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Jun 16, 2014 15:56
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"It's just not realistic/it will never happen" is the weakest form of non-argument.
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Jun 16, 2014 16:41
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Dirty Job posted:"It's just not realistic/it will never happen" is the weakest form of non-argument. but its true.....how on Earth could you have Sweden's tight grip on guns in the US? Citizens there have never historically had rights to them, there aren't a few hundred million of them, with the infrastructure in place to easily make more secretly, and the most violent gun crime city in America has a blanket ban on guns, among several other major differences. Its a perfectly valid observation. RonMexicosPitbull fucked around with this message at 17:26 on Jun 16, 2014 |
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Jun 16, 2014 17:21
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