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It's the same reasoning that they used to defend segregation, if that helps convey the concept.
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Jun 16, 2014 17:48
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Dirty Job posted:"It's just not realistic/it will never happen" is the weakest form of non-argument. Northern European gun control policies aren't perfect. 
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Jun 16, 2014 17:52
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moths posted:It's the same reasoning that they used to defend segregation, if that helps convey the concept. Where's the gun control equivalent of the Civil Rights movement? Americans *really* don't care or are fairly divided on the issue, so it's going nowhere.
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Jun 16, 2014 17:54
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moths posted:It's the same reasoning that they used to defend segregation, if that helps convey the concept. double post, ignore Slobjob Zizek fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Jun 16, 2014 |
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Jun 16, 2014 18:00
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Slobjob Zizek posted:Where's the gun control equivalent of the Civil Rights movement? The Panthers and MLK applying for a permit. Wait you mean on the other side? Hahaha. moths posted:It's the same reasoning that they used to defend segregation, if that helps convey the concept. Yes, it's the same argument idiot. They were like "we can't get rid of segregation, there are already 300 million segregations in circulation and we don't know where they are."
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Jun 16, 2014 18:09
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moths posted:It's the same reasoning that they used to defend segregation, if that helps convey the concept. I gave clear, sound, and most importantly SPECIFIC issues on why that wouldn't work/situation being incredibly and materially different and you handwave it away as something a segregationist would say absolving yourself of having to think about something for more than 2 seconds. Now thats a "non-agrument". Your post sounded like something hitler would say, if that helps convey the concept.
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Jun 16, 2014 18:28
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LeJackal posted:Northern European gun control policies aren't perfect. Comparing the one heavily calculated and well-executed mass shooting to the dozen or so small scale shootings that have happened in the last year in this country, most of which could have been disrupted if not stopped completely by stricter gun regulations, is a bit of a poo poo point to make.
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Jun 16, 2014 18:29
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poo poo, you're right. An idea can't be good if it's unpopular, your tactical namecalling trumps all. The same argument is that it's insurmountable and people have accepted the status quo. The supporting details are secondary to that, but it's the same core non argument. moths fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Jun 16, 2014 |
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Jun 16, 2014 18:35
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moths posted:poo poo, you're right. An idea can't be good if it's unpopular, your tactical namecalling trumps all. None of my issues brought up had anything to do with popularity. Wtf is your problem?
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Jun 16, 2014 18:38
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Slobjob Zizek posted:Ha! So you want to go toe-to-toe with the ADA lobby? According to this article, they Iowa had to grant the blind concealed carry permits after a recent liberalization of CC law. Ah the circle of life. "Guns don't kill people! Mental illness was the cause! We need stronger reporting requirements" "Oh okay, let's do that." "What? You want to take away the self-defense rights of the mentally ill? You monster" VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Jun 16, 2014 |
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Jun 16, 2014 18:39
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VitalSigns posted:Ah the circle of life. That's not a circle; it's an attempt to keep the focus on gun control. It doesn't do anything about mental illness.
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Jun 16, 2014 18:44
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VitalSigns posted:Ah the circle of life. I don't see why this is tough for you to understand. Gun control is misguided, and increased mental health reporting is Orwellian. Everyone who is saying both of these things (like me) is also saying "let's figure out the mystery of why relatively affluent young men go on these sprees." Which you rebut in your walleyed, gape-drooling style with "we can do more than one thing at once!" That's the motherfucking circle of life, is your shallow-rear end arguments. e:VVV No I didn't, read it again
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Jun 16, 2014 18:50
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Kiwi Ghost Chips posted:That's not a circle; it's an attempt to keep the focus on gun control. It doesn't do anything about mental illness. Except that SedanChair suggested tougher reporting requirements as a way to have stopped Rodger SedanChair posted:Which you rebut in your walleyed, gape-drooling style with "we can do more than one thing at once!" That's the motherfucking circle of life, is your shallow-rear end arguments. Then stop making arguments that are vulnerable to it. It's perfectly legitimate to attack symptoms while you're trying to cure the disease. The VRA didn't actually make the South not racist, but while we had it, it did a pretty good job stopping the disenfranchisement that was its symptom*! The only argument against gun control is: "the benefits of doing it don't outweigh the harm", that's it. Complaining "oh but the root cause still exists, you've only reduced the killings"** merits the flip responses it's been getting. *Just an analogy. Gun control and the VRA are not the same thing. Replace it with seat belts vs ubiquitous mass transit, or hell cancer treatment and anti-nausea medication if you want. Because relieving the symptoms of a disease is something we do all the time when the disease itself is harder to cure. **I recognize that you actually do make this argument as well, which is good, but then you weren't the person my original comment was addressed to either VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Jun 16, 2014 |
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Jun 16, 2014 18:51
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SedanChair posted:I don't see why this is tough for you to understand. Gun control is misguided, and increased mental health reporting is Orwellian. Everyone who is saying both of these things (like me) is also saying "let's figure out the mystery of why relatively affluent young men go on these sprees." Which you rebut in your walleyed, gape-drooling style with "we can do more than one thing at once!" That's the motherfucking circle of life, is your shallow-rear end arguments. What exactly is the mystery? "Why do people do bad things?" Plenty of murders happen that aren't committed by affluent young people. Are you seriously saying that proclaiming the "best" course of action to be scratching our chins and pondering the "mysteries" of the human mind is some how any more productive than someone theorizing where the system failed and how it allowed this to happen. Because that is what people who start looking at laws are doing. Why did this happen? He had incredibly misogynistic and some racist beliefs. He had a history of mental problems. He had access to weapons. Do you have any specific ideas as to how to address these three bullet points? Because treating this case or similar cases like cosmic mysteries is a waste of time.
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Jun 16, 2014 19:29
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Free associating on gun stuff: I think you have to look at the history and the culture of the United States to see why so many people are resistant to gun control. I mean, my family has guns that are passed down through generations. (Though that's not unusual.) I remember going to my uncle's house as a little kid and he'd have loaded pistols just sitting out on the tables. When my dad was in high school, him and a friend zeroed rifles on another group of kids after running them off the road over some stupid poo poo. If you got into beef with somebody on your property, the way to settle it was to fire a shotgun slug into the air. Normal redneck stuff. T.R. Fehrenbach, who was a great liberal Texas historian, made the point that Texas in particular has a pronounced form of this culture, as the state went through something like 40 years of persistent warfare after the civil war. Those 40 years included Indian wars, low-level border warfare, and lots of bloody family feuds and extremely high levels of violent crime, well into the 20th century.  So while Fehrenbach had a reputation as a liberal, I remember watching him describe this history at a festival, then say "And I don't give a drat what any Yankee thinks about it." He'd also call the white men in the above photo a group of brutal racists, and then shrug and say that if the shoe was on the other foot, those white guys would be just as dead. He was also old enough to be alive when outlaws and border banditry was still a problem. So for him, the idea of having to be a member of a permitted shooting club for six months to own a gun would simply not make sense. There isn't even electricity in most of the state until things started getting wired up in the 1930s. Obviously we live in a very different environment today, and the gun culture is insane when looking in from the outside, but really it came out of what was a pretty insane and brutal place. moths posted:Culturally, assault rifles are loving weird. These open carry activists and militia groups love them, but I suspect they're cashing in on the notoriety and associated intimidation. It's obviously imitative of the military, but the psychology behind that will probably never get explored.  ^ Dallas businessman (i.e. crook) in 1950. (This individual would later be blown up by a mailbox bomb.) I also think that the gun culture today is an urban paramilitary / insurgent lifestyle culture. You go to gun shows and see people wearing "tactical keffiyehs" buying stuff to trick-out their AR-15. It's all very globalized and unreal. It's rugged individualism but updated for 21st century urban and suburban America. Not speaking to anyone specifically, but judge all you want, they don't care, and there's probably nothing you can do about it. They don't give a crap about what "those who intellectualize about policy" or what any D.C. types think.
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Jun 16, 2014 21:31
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VitalSigns posted:Except that SedanChair suggested tougher reporting requirements as a way to have stopped Rodger I think that was Brannock actually.
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Jun 17, 2014 00:02
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the posted:MRA are no more responsible for this than gun owners are for shooting sprees or Muslims are for 9/11. Women get insane too. Why do they turn to self harm instead of harming others predominantly? What can we do to make insane men more like insane women? Cause I have read a news story where a crazy woman killed her family then herself. It's just that that only happened once and i'd like the frequency of murder/suicide dads to drop to that level. And yeah, MRA type culture of blaming others instead of yourself is part of that. Edit: typo McAlister fucked around with this message at 03:34 on Jun 17, 2014 |
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Jun 17, 2014 03:24
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McAlister posted:Women get insane too. Why do they turn to self harm instead of harming others predominantly? Adolescent males tend to become antisocial rather than just depressed or anxious. This is because testosterone itself has antisocial effects. estrogen has a similarly opposite effect. Think about how it's always men who seem emotionally stunted and exactly what that means about them. the value of social interaction decreased to them which makes them seem dysfunctional. I had an extreme experience with this myself as an adolescent that I posted about in this thread. Just because you find it hard to bond with people doesnt mean you wont become lonely. Infact in my experience it became so bad that my mind obsessed with the only type of social longing I still had, a girl, to solve my pain. Men outwardly express there pain because much of it stems from loneliness and a lack of bonding capability to sate it. if all your depression and anger is caused because of a social need you can't filll, it seems more obvious to strike against it. most people who get this bad just kill themselves anyway but the few who rationalize stuff like the guy in this thread does are who make up the worlds "bad guys" EA Sports fucked around with this message at 04:10 on Jun 17, 2014 |
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Jun 17, 2014 03:58
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Men have historically had the role of unemotional solid foundations thrust on them from the moment they're born. When a male child injures themselves and goes to their parents they will be very lucky, once they're past a certain age, to get any response but 'walk it off' or 'man up'. Men have to be emotionally stunted because it's what one of the major signifies of being a man entails. It's a man's duty to be the one that holds things together. One of the weirdest experiences I ever had was when my father died. My uncle, his brother, pretty much broke down and bawled his eyes out in private to me. He actually apologised for being upset, made me promise not to say anything to his sisters and pretty much said how much he admired that I didn't have the response he did. Same situation when my mother died, and my 10 year old sister was in my care. Pretty much everything everyone ever told me in my life was that I needed to be the one that could put aside my grief and do what needed to be done. Cold, emotionless and businesslike because that's what is expected - how would my sister and other people perceive me if I made my real feelings known? After all, men are not the ones that get hysterical.
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Jun 17, 2014 05:22
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Ddraig posted:Men have historically had the role of unemotional solid foundations thrust on them from the moment they're born. Frankly in my experience men are plenty emotive. Just the emotion has to be "manly". Simply put, you guys get to get annoyed/mad. I'm allowed to be sad in front of witnesses, but heaven help me if I get angry and show it. An angry woman is an irrational PMSing bitch. And society says that angry PMSing bitches may be completely and totally ignored. You don't have to take a word out of their mouths seriously. So the only way for me or any woman to have our anger taken seriously is to stifle every trace of it and speak calmly and reasonably. Meanwhile guys can go "GRRR!" And punch walls and gesture wildly and that just shows you are passionate and intense and should be listened to.  Men and women both get the same treatment and lessons just with different sets of emotions. It would be to the benefit of both genders if their stereotype was ratcheted down a little and augmented with some of the other genders training. Also, what is the least little bit stoic about "boys will be boys"? Men are not remotely stoic. I see no evidence of stoicism as a modern male virtue. The anthem of male youth in American is something along the lines of "WHHHOOOOOO HOOOOO!". Exuberance is not remotely like stoicism.
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Jun 17, 2014 05:37
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Maybe it's a cultural thing. Stoicism is very much admired in Britain. Stiff upper lip and all that. That might have changed, though. Pretty much everyone I know in my age group has pretty similar stories to me. I have no real idea what poo poo is being loaded onto kids these days is - I can't imagine it being any better than the poo poo we were taught.
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Jun 17, 2014 05:50
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Men are totally allowed to cry. I've never seen anyone actually mock a grown man for crying in public. I'm not kidding; I've honestly never seen this. Assuming its for something like a loved one dying or something. This meme that men can't express grief is just bullshit. Meanwhile women are absolutely policed in how they express themselves. So why DO men commit more violent crimes?
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Jun 17, 2014 06:04
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McAlister posted:Women get insane too. Why do they turn to self harm instead of harming others predominantly? I don't think this is true. Women most definitely have much lower suicide rates than men.
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Jun 17, 2014 06:06
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Blue Star posted:Men are totally allowed to cry. I've never seen anyone actually mock a grown man for crying in public. I'm not kidding; I've honestly never seen this. Assuming its for something like a loved one dying or something. This meme that men can't express grief is just bullshit. Meanwhile women are absolutely policed in how they express themselves. How about in middle school, any policing going on there you think?
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Jun 17, 2014 06:10
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SedanChair posted:How about in middle school, any policing going on there you think? Of course, but girls get the worse of it.
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Jun 17, 2014 06:12
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Suicide and self harm are not really the same thing. Well, I guess they kind of are but women are statistically much more likely to self harm than men are, even though it's ultimately to a lesser degree. As for the crying issue, it may be 'ok' for a man to cry without being openly mocked but ultimately it's not about that. The fear of judgement by other men and even women is pretty damning, even if it is considered acceptable on a societal level. It is incredibly, incredibly difficult to eliminate the internalised ideas that start from birth, even if you know they're bullshit and harmful.
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Jun 17, 2014 06:13
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Blue Star posted:Men are totally allowed to cry. I've never seen anyone actually mock a grown man for crying in public. I'm not kidding; I've honestly never seen this. Assuming its for something like a loved one dying or something. This meme that men can't express grief is just bullshit. Meanwhile women are absolutely policed in how they express themselves. It depends on the arbitrary standards a parent may have in raising their kids. It's not something that exists on a macro-scale. Ddraig posted:Suicide and self harm are not really the same thing. It's likely because men and women experience depression differently, and men are much less likely to seek mental help for it.
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Jun 17, 2014 06:19
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Ddraig posted:Maybe it's a cultural thing. Stoicism is very much admired in Britain. Stiff upper lip and all that. Isn't Brian Blessed from the UK? Are the characters he plays strongly masculine? Are the characters he plays stoic? I would say "yes, very much so" to the first and "not even a little bit" to the second. Stoicism isn't simply not crying. It is keeping your emotions in check full stop. Its a virtue for everyone, and I agree that men are presumed to have it to a greater degree than women. But I think that presumption actively undermines the process by which stoicism is achieved. I also think birth order has more to do with stoicism than gender since the eldest child often has to take charge of their siblings from a young age and responsibility hastens maturation. This does intersect with gender because elder sisters are sometimes given more responsibility at younger ages in that regard while elder brothers are sometimes let off easy and thus miss out on these lessons. But about stereotypes. Being to flighty is penalized in both genders certainly. However, because women are stereotyped as being overly emotional people will leap to the conclusion that we've parted ways with logic much more quickly and for smaller emotional displays ( outright crying being the exception ) than men. And it's not that crying doesn't carry a social penalty too, it's just that crying is the emotional signal that men get penalized for quicker and much more harshly than us. As a result we are constantly accused of being ruled by our passions. This prompts much more self examination(and self doubt). Furthermore, it motivates us much more to keep ourselves in check because we know that our words will be more easily dismissed as irrational if we infuse them with any emotion as emotional displays play into the female stereotype. The reverse happens with the male stereotype. Given the default assumption that men are unemotional the first response to a male emotional display is to assume something real/of note is going on that needs attention. Men thus face fewer accusation of being overly emotional (provided the dreaded tears are avoided), spend less time in introspection trying to determine if they are getting carried away, and as a result tend to be more emotive/emotional. Which is why whenever I'm in a car with a man they bitch and moan impatiently at long lights while female drivers/passengers patiently accept what they cannot change without making a lot of noise about it. Edit: when I talk about penalty I'm not talking about teasing or mockery - though that may also occur. I'm talking specifically about being dismissed as irrational such that people stop taking you seriously. "He doesn't mean it, that's just grief talking." Etc. Being humored. McAlister fucked around with this message at 06:49 on Jun 17, 2014 |
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Jun 17, 2014 06:24
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Job Truniht posted:I don't think this is true. Women most definitely have much lower suicide rates than men. Women are twice as likely to attempt suicide. We just tend to use knives or poison rather than guns so men are much more likely to succeed at killing themselves. Poison doses can be calculated incorrectly and cutting your wrists open then not binding them for long enough to bleed out takes a sustained commitment to death while pulling a trigger takes only an instant of commitment to end your life. I'm on a phone but that's all easily verifiable with google. My personal speculation is that women become cutters so much more often than men because when they were trying to kill themselves by slitting their wrists they discovered the adrenaline spike and high you can get from cutting yourself. Future cutting was for that high, not to seek death. Edit : one way to reduce the male suicide rate would be to impress on men the importance of an open casket funeral to family members and leaving a good looking corpse. This would incentivize the less successful methods female suicides use and allow men to survive their suicide attempts more often. A failed suicide attempt is cathartic in my personal experience ( down, not across) and tends to result in a new attachment to life rather than further attempts. There was an article on reddit awhile back about how all 24 survivors of jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge regretted it the instant after they jumped and had no further urge to kill themselves so that ups the sample size to 25/25. McAlister fucked around with this message at 06:35 on Jun 17, 2014 |
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Jun 17, 2014 06:29
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Job Truniht posted:It depends on the arbitrary standards a parent may have in raising their kids. It's not something that exists on a macro-scale. Are there really a lot of parents forbidding their sons from crying or showing emotion? I don't think so. And what happens in childhood tends to carry over into adulthood. Men are used to their emotions being taken seriously.
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Jun 17, 2014 07:05
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Well, I'm glad you and everyone you know doesn't do that, I know plenty of people who do. Many boys are mocked or beaten for showing emotion, and they mete it out to their peers in turn.Blue Star posted:Of course, but girls get the worse of it. Did I blow up your point or not? Men and women undergo policing to adhere to their assigned gender roles. Whether grown men face criticism for crying is irrelevant--the policing has already happened.
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Jun 17, 2014 07:07
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Job Truniht posted:
Note- that link doesn't go into the details why this is so but it does confirm that women attempt suicide more often than men but men succeed at a higher rate. If you find a study on just that this effect remains even after you discount likely false suicide attempts ( cries for attention ) and just focus on the credible attempts. One can survive ingestion of a surprising amount of rat poison but a bullet is generally fatal in a single dose. That said, it stuck the words "men with depression" behind a lot of sentences that described universal depression symptoms. "Men with depression lose interest in their hobbies, etc". No kidding. If you were having fun doing things - man or woman - you wouldn't be depressed.
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Jun 17, 2014 07:22
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EA Sports posted:Adolescent males tend to become antisocial rather than just depressed or anxious. This is because testosterone itself has antisocial effects. estrogen has a similarly opposite effect. Think about how it's always men who seem emotionally stunted and exactly what that means about them. the value of social interaction decreased to them which makes them seem dysfunctional. I had an extreme experience with this myself as an adolescent that I posted about in this thread. Just because you find it hard to bond with people doesnt mean you wont become lonely. Infact in my experience it became so bad that my mind obsessed with the only type of social longing I still had, a girl, to solve my pain. Men outwardly express there pain because much of it stems from loneliness and a lack of bonding capability to sate it. if all your depression and anger is caused because of a social need you can't filll, it seems more obvious to strike against it. most people who get this bad just kill themselves anyway but the few who rationalize stuff like the guy in this thread does are who make up the worlds "bad guys" Do you seriously believe that there are no anti-social women and girls starved for friendship? That social isolation during adolescence is a uniquely male experience? Truly? Cause if you do that is hilarious. And I've got a reading list a mile long about teen girls on the outside looking in and learning to handle unpopularity. Let's start with any and every book about a girl and her horse who she inevitably turns to as her best friend in the face of social rejection from her human peers.
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Jun 17, 2014 07:29
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SedanChair posted:How about in middle school, any policing going on there you think? I'm not sure that middle school is a great example though because middle school is miserable for all but those four cool kids. The rest are in hell.
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Jun 17, 2014 07:37
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The difference is that boys are raised to expect popularity, girls, respect, and all that stuff. And like I said, they're used to having their feelings taken seriously. So when they don't get those things and feel frustrated, marginalized, etc., they think these are legitimate grievances. It explains Eliot Roger pretty well. He honestly thought the world was against him because he didn't have a hot sexy girlfriend despite having a car, not being hideous, whatever. He never second-guessed how he felt. There wasn't the slightest hint of "Well, maybe I'm over-reacting". His internal, subjective emotions were true reflections of external, objective reality.
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Jun 17, 2014 07:38
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McAlister posted:Do you seriously believe that there are no anti-social women and girls starved for friendship? That social isolation during adolescence is a uniquely male experience?
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Jun 17, 2014 07:55
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EA Sports posted:Just look at fyad or 4chan and all these groups of antisocial men who engage in ironic racism or wanton pedophilia in the case of 4chan. they do it because they are being emotionally calloused from their loneliness which is caused from there reduced ability to bond. No. They do it because they're loving sacks of garbage. I'm glad that you're doing better, but in the future you might want to refrain from defending pedophiles and racists.
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Jun 17, 2014 08:45
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why are so many goon males misanthropic? is it because the world is unfair, and bad things happen to good people? what do they feel to make them come to this conclusion? worldly judgments are always rationalizations of inner discord because they are not even close to what truly matters. Lots of the men here are antisocial, lonely, and have problems bonding. It is something I see in misfits like me everywhere. including pedophiles and racist and whatever other ways men tend to break more often because of loss of bonding ability. Could you really take all the female goons with their arguably greater struggles through life and have them say that they are antisocial misanthropes? where is the predominantly female 4chan/fyad?
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Jun 17, 2014 09:47
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Ddraig posted:As for the crying issue, it may be 'ok' for a man to cry without being openly mocked but ultimately it's not about that. The fear of judgement by other men and even women is pretty damning, even if it is considered acceptable on a societal level. It is incredibly, incredibly difficult to eliminate the internalised ideas that start from birth, even if you know they're bullshit and harmful. Forcing people into expected behavioral modes by gender is a problem for everyone equally yet it's usually the feminist side of the fence that ever challenges and tries to change staunch perceptions of gender-roles in society. EA Sports posted:I had friends and I had sex. Lots of people wanted to hang out with me but I couldn't value them.. same thing with my family/friends at the time. My experience was so extreme that I swear I can see it in all men. I can see it in pedophiles, what else are they but broken men attempting to comfort there loneliness? Are you a pedophile? breadshaped fucked around with this message at 10:40 on Jun 17, 2014 |
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Jun 17, 2014 10:36
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Bedshaped posted:Are you a pedophile? Oh let's loving not.
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Jun 17, 2014 14:03
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