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ironlung posted:Tyrion was the show's audience in that scene. "Holy poo poo! He might actually... holy poo poo he's going to pull it off!" Before that, there was a look on Tyrion's face that was like, 'why are you taking so long, just kill the motherfucker'. And that was when I knew Oberyn lost before he got punched. At least taunt the large man out of reach or keep a knife in your boot, drat.
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Jun 2, 2014 03:12
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Lets! Get! Weird! posted:Don't they realize Martin never lets the good guys win? Oberyn existed for basically this: 'Tyrion is drowning. You know what would be fun? Lets pour more water on Tyrion!'
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Jun 2, 2014 03:31
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Mide posted:I don't think the mountain actually bashed his head in. I figured it to be one of two scenarios. The most basic being he literally crushed his skull within his hands. The other was he grappled the inside of Oberyn's eye sockets with his thumbs and ripped outward. Why am I visualizing this? The only depressing thing about that episode is I want another one right now, but next week is the penultimate one and is probably going to be just about the fight at the wall, just like Blackwater was. So the aftermath won't be until two weeks 
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Jun 2, 2014 03:43
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Really, all of this is moot because the Ice Liches are going to show up and kill everyone and everything and make a thousand year winter.
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Jun 2, 2014 03:59
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LOU BEGAS MUSTACHE posted:he was being a cocky, pompous motherfucker against arguably the strongest person (besides him) in westeros. he is a cocky, pompous motherfucker. My bet is that he just got drop dead drunk. This is actually an advertisement for MADD. Don't drink and fight a 6'9" man with a great sword the size of Cersei Lannister.
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Jun 2, 2014 05:39
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Zombies' Downfall posted:Yeah, I got that too. And I'm with you, I like the character. But there was more to the fight and its lead-up than just him being an avenging agent of justice; he's drinking beforehand, and then he doesn't wear a helmet (foreshadowing what happens). He's seeking vengeance, but he's also grandstanding and messing around with a guy who shouldn't be messed with because he's cocksure. Tyrion and Jaime in the scene immediately prior talk about how Oberyn is sure he'll win, but that doesn't make it so. Pretty much. If he took it as serious as it should have been, he would have lived. I mean, even Bronn who likes to gently caress around definitely would not have hosed around during that match. It was a flaw of his character that got him killed, more than the mountain.
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Jun 2, 2014 05:49
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Manic Mailman posted:so uhh did the mountain really die? i wasn't to clear in all the excitement. Also Jorah getting kicked he's gotta be a valuable asset to someone no matter what hes done. He didn't die....
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Jun 2, 2014 05:53
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Zombies' Downfall posted:Would a King's Guard even be allowed to stand against the crown in a trial by combat? He'd probably have to resign, which I have no doubt Jamie would do for Tyrion.
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Jun 2, 2014 05:55
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DoctorStrangelove posted:The fight was so Dark Souls it was almost painful. Hahah, that's what I was thinking too. It is like someone doing a taunt when their opponent has a sliver of life left and the other guy manages to get a back stab and kill him instantly.
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Jun 2, 2014 06:21
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Aristobulus posted:You know, I'm not really all that shocked with this episode. I'm...disappointed, of course I wanted Oberyn to win. But I'm not shocked. It's very clearly GRRM's gimmick to go for subversions by killing characters the audience is rooting for and who would heroically win in other media, in the name of "that's not how things would go in reality." The thing is, I've read authors who regularly kill their characters for shock value. Usually they come from pointless, unsatisfying sources and try to be 'realistic' but they always come off as cheap, badly written and often pointless besides trolling your reader. GRMM does it well, every major character death has massive consequences. Ned Stark's death started a war. Robb Stark's death lead to the eventually slaying of Joffery and probably even more poo poo down the line. They're never empty. And he always leaves enough of them around so you keep reading. Obviously, if you do too much of this people will eventually stop reading your books since you are basically throwing away novels worth of character development just to prove that 'no one is safe'. Which I've done before. Because at a certain point, you just stop becoming invested and the narrative simply isn't enough to keep you interested. GoT definitely skirts the edge of it. Unfortunately, Oberyn is a secondary character who basically serves to bury Tyrion even deeper. I don't think GRMM is at the point of trolling his readers and writing events simply to piss them off or to solely subvert expectations. (Not yet, anyway). The whole premise to GRMM's writing basically boils down to this: "This character has a problem. How can I keep making that problem worse?" If you go with that in mind, you probably won't be surprised. Nothing ever works out, because where's the fun in that? The fun comes from seeing how a character is able to get around the mountains of poo poo GRMM puts on them. Or when that character can't get out of it, the effects of the death of that character on all the others. Dapper Dan fucked around with this message at 06:36 on Jun 2, 2014 |
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Jun 2, 2014 06:34
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The Oldest Man posted:I think it would have been clever if Oberyn had actually forced out a confession that Tywin ordered the rape and the infanticide in so many words, then got his head crushed in. Oberyn's storyline feels kind of pointless as-is. Oberyn really was meant more for Tyrion, to give him a little bit of hope and then crush it. His death was necessary for the character development of Tyrion, wherever that may lead. EDIT: Avasculous posted:You're not wrong, but I think you're being slightly unfair. And this is why he does it well, precisely because he's not doing it for shock value. And that their deaths do resonate and aren't pointless, even if they seem to be.
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Jun 2, 2014 06:40
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Vehementi posted:??? Go watch it, he gets up, he's kneeling over Oberyn. Upon rewatch he actually lifts Oberyn's entire body over him and to the other side, with one arm, then fully gets up onto his knees and speaks a few sentences with a popped lung and a giant hole in his chest. Just pretend he got stabbed in the gut or something, which would make it agonizingly painful to do but possible with adrenaline. Problem solved.
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Jun 2, 2014 07:38
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blackmanjew posted:Wow, I've never actually been physically ill after watching this show until now. I'm used to blood and gore, but the end of this episode was pretty much out of a horror movie. That probably affected me more than Oberyn's death because I wasn't expecting the sheer amount of gore. Not the eye gouging, but the skull exploding. JIZZ DENOUEMENT posted:I agree that the ending fight was actually kind of a let down. For how neat the individual actors fighting choreography was, the fight itself felt pretty lame. It's been talked a lot, but I'm also annoyed at the "stabbed a foot deep in the torso, spring up and murder" bullshit. I thought the rest of the episode was amazing, albeit a bit slowly paced in some parts, but the ending was pretty weak. I just find the entire argument ridiculous either way. If people are arguing realism about 'The Mountain' not being able to lift and punch Oberyn, it takes something in the vicinity of 520 PSI to basically obliterate a human skull like he did, so the whole conversation is loving moot anyway.
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Jun 2, 2014 07:54
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JIZZ DENOUEMENT posted:More than one thing can be dumb at the same time, and you're making a strawman. At no point did I say "crushing a guys skull otoh makes complete sense and is also a real thing". But ok there's giant and wizards and dragons so I accept that somewhat. I'm more disappointed with the choreography than anything. True, and we agree anyway. I just find realism arguments silly and pointless in media. They're all works of fiction, so everything is writer/director/actor fiat. Its all about whether or not it makes sense in the world that is constructed and the larger narrative. Not our world, as in the one we occupy.
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Jun 2, 2014 08:05
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Fabulous Knight posted:Right, I've seen some complaints about Oberyn's final moment being too gruesome or whatever. I can kind of see that, but this was pretty much completely how it happened in the *gasp* books. There have been some major moments in this show that have kind of differed from what they were in the source material whereas this one was very loyal to it, but of course then you have the question of should they just have had Oberyn sliced in half or something as opposed to this more prolonged death. Because, poo poo, I feel like if I had not known what was going to happen, I would've found that over-excessive. Just chop his head off or something, I dunno. But then, does it simply just become "Welp, he's dead" as opposed to this, well, rather strong reaction? Ehh. It is what it is. The thing is the tonal shift is just so jarring. You're prepared for a brutal melee combat with violent deaths but instead it shifts to something out of a slasher film. It felt out of place with the rest of the scene. I was expecting him to gouge his eyes out and then punch him to death, not crush his skull in a pneumatic press like a horror movie monster. It'd probably sit better if they just cut away like they do in most other non-horror movies, but keeping the camera on the action is really what did it. Dapper Dan fucked around with this message at 09:19 on Jun 2, 2014 |
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Jun 2, 2014 09:17
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Fabulous Knight posted:Yeah, I can see where you're coming from. It's a complex issue. I was kind of worried that the show might start to seem gruesome and violent for the hell of it, but as I said this execution was very loyal to the book. Should they have changed it to something else and less "cartoonish"? I don't know. The thing is the translation to different mediums. What isn't a tonal shift in a novel can be a tonal shift in a film without altering the overall events. Not focusing on the skull crushing or making him dash his head against the stone would have been better and less cartoon-like.
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Jun 2, 2014 09:36
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Macrame_God posted:All I can say is that if they kill Tyrion then I'm giving up on everyone and rooting for the Whitewalkers. I'd laugh if the end of the books is GRMM gearing up for this big confrontation between the Mother of Dragons and the rest of Westeros and then the White Walkers come, push everyone's poo poo in and end the world because no one was paying the gently caress attention. 'Everyone dies! Nothing ever mattered in all of these books! GG.'
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Jun 2, 2014 10:23
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Napoleon Bonaparty posted:The Winds of Winter is secretly the last book. I mean, I couldn't be upset with it. It is fitting and does have an important message. We're too busy trying to screw each other over for poo poo that doesn't really matter and that we treat the real threat to our species as fantasy. The ones that do believe it are just as caught up trying to gently caress each other over as everybody else, except for maybe a handful that will probably end up dead due to politics or have no resources to fight said threat. The only way to win is for mankind to come together (ha-loving-hah) and since that is never happening, we all die. The end!
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Jun 2, 2014 10:48
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Nelson Mandingo posted:As for Orson's Beetles the deeper meaning probably lies with the rest of the episode. Almost every character talks about death throughout the episode. It was the theme of the episode. Everyone and everything dies, a lot of the time for no reason at all. The beauty of the beetle conversation is that you can take it in any way you want and still have it make sense. And you will still never really know why those beetles are being crushed.
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Jun 2, 2014 10:52
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:This sums it up good. I think it also matches up with Tyrion's beetle genocide speech. He tried to find reason for all this death and suffering, and there was no answer. I don't think it is a question of morality. It is a question of knowing the game that you are playing, knowing the risks you face and preparing for them. You have to be ready to change, to adapt. To be a chameleon. This doesn't require you to be evil or cruel, just smart. Ned Stark was executed because he was far too honorable and trusting. He refused to change his nature even while walking into a den of predators. Rob Stark chose to put love before his cause, the risks be damned and paid a terrible price for it. Oberyon embraced his own hubris and never thought of abandoning it. Each of them threw risks to the wind and refused to adapt. Varis and Littlefinger are the ultimate survivors. Sansa is alive because she could change and adapt. So is Arya. Tyrion has always been this way, except his situation is one not of his own making, but fate's. The characters that died did so because, while they acknowledged the risks of the game they were playing, they did not adapt to them. They were inflexible and the broke instead of bending. If Ned was less trusting and more secretive, he might have been alive. If Rob Stark took his love as his mistress instead of his wife, he'd be alive. If Oberyon shuttered his ego for a moment (or wore a goddamn helmet), he'd be alive. This is why the character deaths are so well-done. Because each was basically by their own hand. They refused to be flexible in a time when they seriously needed to be and it cost them their lives.
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Jun 2, 2014 11:24
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Vehementi posted:Sure, just saying, being coerced into a false confession via threats of murder against your family by a conspiracy of murderers & torturers and then having an obviously crazy and evil psychopath order your execution is why Ned lost his head. Not his honor or pride or something. That's overly simplistic. It isn't entirely his fault, but to expect everyone to abide by his code of honor and do the right thing was ridiculous. Ned's own faults lead to his demise. He refused to compromise his own principles in order to get the things he needed to do, done. He was warned time and time again that what he was doing was reckless, even dangerous, but he refused to compromise his principles. And time and time again, it has been shown if you refuse to change your emotions or principles, there are plenty of people who will and you will lose. This doesn't mean you have to become a total monster, but you have to have a lot of flexibility. If you don't, others will break you. And happily too. Being uncompromising in your principles, usually a sign of the hero, is a huge detriment in GoT. This isn't some big secret, it's big boy rules. If you don't want to be a chameleon, you'd drat well better be sure you know what the gently caress you're doing or you more than likely will end up dead.
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Jun 3, 2014 05:23
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Vehementi posted:The harsh reality is that amoral murderers gonna git you. Got it. The things he was doing were reckless because amoral murderers with the power to murder him and get away with it were going to git him. But where does this tie back into his being murdered being his fault, any more than every choice / event that happened prior to his death "leading up to his death" in the trivial sense? Because he knew he was walking into a literal den of amoral murderers who would just as soon cut his throat as shake his hand and he operated like it was business as usual in the North? Because he simply refused to alter his approach despite the clearly dangerous situation? I'm sorry, but what he did was comparable to wearing meat around his neck and stepping into a Lion's cage and expecting not to get mauled because he's been friendly with it. If you don't want to compromise your personal ethics, fine. But don't be surprised when the amoral murders who have no such compunctions do what comes natural. the posted:Where's this part? I must have missed it. After the ice lich apocalypse there is joy because there's no one left to be murdered and that is happy times.
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Jun 3, 2014 05:52
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PantsBandit posted:Yeah I think Sansa understands that Littlefinger, like everyone else in a position of power in the show, is capable of doing terrible things if necessary. That's why he asks her if she thinks she knows him, and if I'm remembering correctly she doesn't really give an answer to that. She doesn't know him, not really, but she does know that she's in a position where he wants her around for multiple reasons. That's enough for her to at least know he isn't an immediate threat, to her life anyways, and she can actually start making some drat forward progress. Ironically, it just came out that he might not be doing seven books, but eight. I imagine that there are contingencies for this sort of thing, but it might turn out that the television series actually ends before the books themselves do. And considering that the producers/showrunners have been talking that they want the show to last seven seasons, it just might turn out that way.
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Jun 4, 2014 14:27
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Jorghnassen posted:I expect the aftermath of the stuff in episode 8 will be left to the last episode of the season. Along with aftermath of the Wall stuff. Similar to what happened with Blackwater. Yeah, GoT is breaking with its tradition of the penultimate episode being the season finale and the last episode being the prologue. Which is ok, but to be honest I think everyone is really wanting the aftermath of the last episode right now rather than a battle episode.
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Jun 4, 2014 16:01
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precision posted:I think he's latched onto a really clever way of getting other people to essentially write the plot for him. He tells the showrunners the "broad strokes", they fill in the blanks, he novelizes it and gets another truckload of money. Kind of genius really. You know he started writing in TV before Game of Thrones became immesnely popular, which is why GoT is more plot-centric than character-centric right? Not to mention that GoT started nearly two decades ago. This isn't some get rich quick scheme or lovely writing designed to wring as much money from people as possible (looking at you Dan Brown). Not to mention that it has been stated time and again that he signed over his rights to the show, the producers and show runners can do whatever they want with his material. He mentioned before in an interview that there are no stipulations as to what they can do and he does not have creative control. They can have Space Vampires fly in and save Tyrion if they wanted. They aren't going to wait for him to write anything to continue the show. Dapper Dan fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Jun 6, 2014 |
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Jun 6, 2014 20:56
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