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bango skank posted:That's because the only point anyone in this thread is trying to make is "White people, BAD!" "White people" as an institution are, in fact, reprehensible towards the groups they regularly marginalize.
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Jun 23, 2014 00:55
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"White people" were created solely as a method of exclusion. Before imperialism and slavery, there were just English people, French people, whatever. It wasn't until the Atlantic Slave Trade and colonialism that Europeans had to come up with a system to oppress people based on skin color. That isn't to say that racism didn't exist before the 1600s, but it was different back in medieval times and ancient times. The Greeks were pretty racist but they didn't have a system of "white people vs non-white people", but rather "Greek vs non-Greek". Same with the Romans, the Chinese, etc. This could all be wrong, of course; I'm just relaying what I've read and heard over the years, but that's the basic gist as I currently understand it.
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Jun 23, 2014 01:03
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Blue Star posted:"White people" were created solely as a method of exclusion. Before imperialism and slavery, there were just English people, French people, whatever. It wasn't until the Atlantic Slave Trade and colonialism that Europeans had to come up with a system to oppress people based on skin color. That isn't to say that racism didn't exist before the 1600s, but it was different back in medieval times and ancient times. The Greeks were pretty racist but they didn't have a system of "white people vs non-white people", but rather "Greek vs non-Greek". Same with the Romans, the Chinese, etc. So "because people didn't travel much people didn't see people of different colors often and hence there was no need to classify people based on skin color". That's more of an argument of means than anything else.
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Jun 23, 2014 01:18
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The crown of Racism Megathread descends upon this thread with the posting of this good op-ed.quote:Polls show that more whites believe in ghosts than believe racism is a problem in America. I guess that’s why Ghost Hunters is so popular but my show, Racist Wranglers, never got picked up. Maybe the reason is how we define racism. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar woke wedding drone fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Jun 23, 2014 |
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Jun 23, 2014 01:35
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SedanChair posted:Polls show that more whites believe in ghosts than believe racism is a problem in America. I guess that’s why Ghost Hunters is so popular but my show, Racist Wranglers, never got picked up. FWIW white people are more likely to have experienced ghosts than racism.
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Jun 23, 2014 01:40
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Nobody is saying that non-white people can't be racist or prejudiced or whatever, they're saying that they have so little opportunity or social influence that it basically doesn't matter. If I ever apply for a job as, I dunno the New Black Panther Party's accountant(where the gently caress else would this happen?), and I get rejected because of the color of my skin I'll just apply ANYWHERE ELSE. No big deal.
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Jun 23, 2014 02:11
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The word we should use to describe white people being harmed by the prejudice of non-white people is "outlier". No more, no less.
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Jun 23, 2014 04:47
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Time for Louis CK to explain it all. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG4f9zR5yzY
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Jun 26, 2014 02:38
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SedanChair posted:The crown of Racism Megathread descends upon this thread with the posting of this good op-ed. Solving of racism must begin at the material level, and from that will flow on social-cultural enlightenment. It cannot be solved by garbage symbolic rhetoric, because as we've seen, people will just tune out.
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Jun 26, 2014 06:59
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If racism is defined as systemic race-based discrimination, then you need to reorder society to where that no longer exists. You'd end the war on drugs, you'd expand the health care system to serve the black population that is chronically underserved by it. You'd expand child care services to black parents. You might even have a reparations program. You'd do a lot of stuff. You'd eliminate disparities in income and employment. You'd drastically reform how we incarcerate people. You'd remove employment discrimination against workers with felony records. All of which serves as a machine for reproducing racial disparities. And then once the society eliminates racism -- over a period of many decades -- it wouldn't matter if a white person like Paula Deen says something anti-black, because her words wouldn't be backed up by anything. Her words would have as much power behind them as anti-white comments do today. She wouldn't be able to really hurt anyone. But if that's the case, then it doesn't really matter what Paula Deen thinks about anything. It doesn't really matter what's in her heart because that's not where the problem is. The suggestion that we "seek it out [racism] every minute of every day and expose every instance we find" isn't going to change the fundamental structure of society. What you'd get is a kind of permanent state of witchhunting and denunciation on the left with growing bitterness and evasion on the right. What you'd get is the status quo. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 09:27 on Jun 26, 2014 |
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Jun 26, 2014 07:42
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rudatron posted:That's actually a garbage op-ed because it's means of solving racism is poo poo and terrible, and reason numero uno that no one listens to the left. Are you seriously agreeing with the idea that 'raising awareness' is going to solve racism one loving iota? Hasn't the slacktivist strategy of 'microaggression tumblrs' actually turned out to be a complete loving joke? If mainstream society doesn't even take you seriously, how the gently caress are you going to change it? So Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, who has maybe seen his share of racism and progress away from it since uh playing in the NBA in the 1960s and converting to Islam thinks black people should speak up and point out racism. Forums poster rudatron thinks no, black people should remain quiet and when they speak, that's "the problem with the left." It's also "microaggression tumblr" for the black legend formerly known as Lew Alcindor to weigh in on his experiences with racism, rudatron says. Let me go ahead and weigh these opinions.
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Jun 26, 2014 07:51
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It's pretty telling that you automatically equivocate between 'slacktivism solves nothing' and 'uppity blacks', that sounds like a very convenient tool for you. Raising awareness is garbage and always will be. No one's telling people to not share their experiences, but you're delusion if you think a post-race society is one anecdote or one graph away; it's not, that's not how ideology works, and you're naive if you think otherwise. rudatron fucked around with this message at 08:23 on Jun 26, 2014 |
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Jun 26, 2014 08:13
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I just don't see why you would equate anything Kareem Abdul-Jabbar has ever done, including that editorial, to slacktivism. Oh wait I might have an idea as to why.
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Jun 26, 2014 08:16
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How the gently caress did you get "stay quiet, uppity blacks" out of "black people need to do more than just speak up"?
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Jun 26, 2014 08:19
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SALT CURES HAM posted:How the gently caress did you get "stay quiet, uppity blacks" out of "black people need to do more than just speak up"? Well this is a democracy... so what else could they do? You've got your voice and your fists, and the latter usually doesn't work out too well for minorities.
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Jun 26, 2014 13:48
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"If I don't see bonfires, you're not African-Americaning hard enough Kareem." 
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Jun 26, 2014 14:03
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computer parts posted:So "because people didn't travel much people didn't see people of different colors often and hence there was no need to classify people based on skin color". If anything people traveled more back then: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migration_Period
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Jun 26, 2014 15:04
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Why can't you guys discuss this without trying to sneakily imply that the guy you're talking to is a racist? SedanChair posted:So Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, who has maybe seen his share of racism and progress away from it since uh playing in the NBA in the 1960s and converting to Islam thinks black people should speak up and point out racism. Forums poster rudatron thinks no, black people should remain quiet and when they speak, that's "the problem with the left." It's also "microaggression tumblr" for the black legend formerly known as Lew Alcindor to weigh in on his experiences with racism, rudatron says. And this is stupid as hell, if you give no poo poo about his opinion, why not just read Kareem Abdul Jabbar's articles all day instead of talking to someone that you don't care to hear from? Be easy, nigga
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Jun 26, 2014 15:09
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Impatient Skype JO posted:
I dunno, man. I think its pretty amusing. Besides, aren't you suggesting that people should ignore others that don't agree with them? That's no bueno.
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Jun 26, 2014 17:00
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Impatient Skype JO posted:Why can't you guys discuss this without trying to sneakily imply that the guy you're talking to is a racist? I wasn't trying to be particularly sneaky...
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Jun 26, 2014 17:14
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Omi-Polari posted:If racism is defined as systemic race-based discrimination, then you need to reorder society to where that no longer exists. How do you do this when people are racist and vote for racist politicians who want to preserve systemic race-based discrimination? Apparently convincing people is out because that will just make the left shrill and the right bitter and stubborn, so we...? ...?
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Jun 26, 2014 18:31
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rudatron posted:It's pretty telling that you automatically equivocate between 'slacktivism solves nothing' and 'uppity blacks', that sounds like a very convenient tool for you.  I'm glad, though, that we exist in a time that gives us so much access/ways to say "hey, poo poo's racist and hosed up," and not get beat up/lynched for it. I'm perfectly alright with these mysterious tumblrs about micro-aggression existing because at least minorities have a place to vent/share their experiences rather than mutter about things like we used to do before. Now, how effective can raising awareness be? Yeah, it's worth is limited if it's not paired with action, but I won't decry people for doing whatever they can/will do to fight something as overwhelming as white society. That's just petty and does smack of 'be quite you uppity negroes' because you're just telling people to shut up about their lives/experiences as if they have 0 value.And who knows, a particularly awful account might spur some white soul into rethinking their outlook. I've seen it happen, although only once and it was after a face-to-face confrontation of the person's racism.
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Jun 26, 2014 19:46
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rudatron posted:It's pretty telling that you automatically equivocate between 'slacktivism solves nothing' and 'uppity blacks', that sounds like a very convenient tool for you. So should I...overthrow the social order?
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Jun 26, 2014 19:47
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I think one thing that can be done is better education, education that emphasizes critical thinking and deep examination of the self and the world. My reasoning is that while racism still exists, and in fact is all over the place, it's not on the surface. It's no longer a bunch of guys marching down the street in pointy white hoods, instead it has become an insidious sort of thing and people are pretty blind to it unless they are looking for it. I think stronger forms of AA might be a good part of the solution too, part of what keeps minorities out of various positions in society is just that people find the idea of seeing them in those positions odd or strange and many people have an almost instinctive aversion to anything new, odd or strange. As an example when someone say the word "nurse" what comes to most people's minds is the image of a kindly woman, that is a bias created by society and reinforced by that instinctive aversion to anything out of place or against peoples sense of propriety. The more people see minorities in positions of power the less strange it will seem to society at large, hence more and stronger forms of AA. To use an obvious example: After having Obama as president I think that way fewer people, especially young people, will find the idea of a black dude in the presidency to be strange. But in the end I think racism and other forms of arbitrary discrimination will continue to exist as long as arbitrary differences and those who would take advantage of such arbitrary differences continue to exist, it's not a fight you win, it's a fight that has to take place for each and every new generation.
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Jun 26, 2014 19:50
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"Microaggression tumblr" seems to be getting celebrities and wealthy people in hot water all the time, and prompting national conversations about more insidious and persistent forms of racism. So what the gently caress exactly is the problem with raising awareness, paired with nothing but itself?
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Jun 26, 2014 19:53
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SedanChair posted:"Microaggression tumblr" seems to be getting celebrities and wealthy people in hot water all the time, and prompting national conversations about more insidious and persistent forms of racism. So what the gently caress exactly is the problem with raising awareness, paired with nothing but itself? It's not REAL ACTION so it doesn't matter ever. Again, I still hold that the ~*tumblr sjw*~ hate is just 21st century way of angrily saying friend of the family-lover, but also implying that they're useless internet hippies on top of being dirty race-mixers.
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Jun 26, 2014 19:56
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nutranurse posted:It's not REAL ACTION so it doesn't matter ever. Again, I still hold that the ~*tumblr sjw*~ hate is just 21st century way of angrily saying friend of the family-lover, but also implying that they're useless internet hippies on top of being dirty race-mixers. That is a super fuckin stupid thing to say.
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Jun 26, 2014 20:15
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Yes, some crazy people exist on Tumblr/Social Media, but they're far from the majority.
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Jun 26, 2014 20:18
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Everyone who isn't a straight white person is far from the majority, what's your point?
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Jun 26, 2014 20:20
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Maybe we shouldn't judge the sites/their user-base based on the actions of insane/petulant/attention-seeking otherkin, furries, transethics/fat/w.e? Are you trying to equate the ramblings of these people to the struggles of actual minorities or?
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Jun 26, 2014 20:22
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Man I don't give a poo poo about this dumb thread about dumb internet people thinking white people want slavery back, you said anyone who uses the term SJW may as well be using the term friend of the family-lover, and that was a dumb thing to say, because there's a fuckin ton of SJWs out there.
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Jun 26, 2014 20:30
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Just smearing by finding the most ridiculous people in the world and somehow tying them to people with substantive complaints. It's nothing new. I mean, nobody answered what Kareem Abdul-Jabbar has to do with tumblr.
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Jun 26, 2014 20:32
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ChairMaster posted:Man I don't give a poo poo about this dumb thread about dumb internet people thinking white people want slavery back, you said anyone who uses the term SJW may as well be using the term friend of the family-lover, and that was a dumb thing to say, because there's a fuckin ton of SJWs out there. And yet here you are, making posts.
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Jun 26, 2014 20:32
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nutranurse posted:And yet here you are, making posts. yea but i didn't post about the point of the thread, i posted about a post in the thread, it's different.
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Jun 26, 2014 20:33
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SedanChair posted:I mean, nobody answered what Kareem Abdul-Jabbar has to do with tumblr. Counterpoint: Jesse Jackson said a thing once decades ago ergo you're all the same
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Jun 26, 2014 21:13
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SedanChair posted:Just smearing by finding the most ridiculous people in the world and somehow tying them to people with substantive complaints. It's nothing new. He presents racism as the insidious enemy that's everywhere - and if you don't see it, it's only because it makes you blind to its presence. This makes dismissing anyone who criticizes the article in any way incredibly easy. If you disagree with any of his claims, you automatically are proven wrong - because it only means you're too racist to perceive how bad your society is. This is exactly the thing that's prominent in tumblr SJW stuff - their world view doesn't account for possibility they can ever be proven wrong. You can't disagree with them about the level of their oppression, because this either marks you as one of the oppressors or their brainwashed lackeys. You can't criticize their methods or even tone, because of course you are just saying this because you're defending your privilege. They are blogging versions of Monty Python's Black Knight, trying to achieve victory by never admitting defeat. Otherkins, transblacks and "white-women-can't-be-raped" weirdos are thought as exemplars of SJW because they use the same tactics to defend incredibly stupid and ridiculous causes. The end result is that they spend most of their time in little fap circles, driving away anyone who isn't willing to support them unconditionally. tldr: Tone argument.
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Jun 26, 2014 23:44
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Gantolandon posted:He presents racism as the insidious enemy that's everywhere - and if you don't see it, it's only because it makes you blind to its presence. This makes dismissing anyone who criticizes the article in any way incredibly easy. If you disagree with any of his claims, you automatically are proven wrong - because it only means you're too racist to perceive how bad your society is. So your argument, then, isn't that racism everywhere? Because that's an interesting position. How would you argue that?
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Jun 27, 2014 00:13
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Zelder posted:So your argument, then, isn't that racism everywhere? Because that's an interesting position. How would you argue that? No. My argument is that the stance "racism is everywhere and the fact that you don't see it proves its prevalence" is not falsifiable and unlikely to convince anyone who doesn't already hold this point of view themselves. Gantolandon fucked around with this message at 00:33 on Jun 27, 2014 |
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Jun 27, 2014 00:31
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So your argument is that the truth (and the truth is that racism is everywhere, it's an institutional problem) is unnappealing and unlikely to convince people, so we shouldn't talk about it?
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Jun 27, 2014 00:35
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Gantolandon posted:No. My argument is that the stance "racism is everywhere and the fact that you don't see it proves its prevalence" is not falsifiable and unlikely to convince anyone who doesn't already hold this point of view themselves. That's not the argument being put forth, hope this helps.
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Jun 27, 2014 00:36
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