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E-Tank posted:Chains holding them to tables means that they're being treated as slaves. Reporting it and getting them deported seems to be the nicer thing to do simply because then they won't be loving *slaves*. You would think so but life in 3rd world countries for many people is literally worse than slavery in a better one.
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Jun 15, 2014 00:30
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Main Paineframe posted:If you haven't completely run off in shame yet, OP, I'd like you to take a look at this article, because you're falling into the biggest trap for white people - when confronted with a conversation about racism that isn't sufficiently cushioned and tip-toey for your taste, you make it all about you, you, you and how dare they talk about a society-wide centuries-old legacy of racism without specifically making exceptions for you? Yes, "not all white people are like that", but if you're so self-centered and clueless that you have to butt into a conversation about racism to yell about how not-racist you personally are, you probably are "like that" even if you don't realize it. This is bullshit meant to quell discussion and force your mindset onto others. It essentially tells white people that if they don't think they are racist to be quiet because they are one of the good ones and if they have to the desire to speak then they are automatically racist by admission. It's bullshit tumblrspeak.
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Jun 18, 2014 08:47
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Impatient Skype JO posted:Being able to drink all the mayonnaise you like without worrying what anyone will say. Or being able to leave the house smelling like hotdog water without feeling gross. Or having weird, clammy hands and not even trying to do something about it. IT'S A LOOFA!
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Jun 18, 2014 20:06
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Ytlaya posted:I honestly think that the issue is less that people like you are bad or racist or something and more that you just have a really terrible imagination. Seriously, it isn't difficult to imagine why it would be extremely obnoxious for a group that doesn't face anything approaching the level of discrimination and other problems you face as a result of your race/gender/whatever to keep chiming in about their own feelings. The entire point of dialogue is allowing people to speak. Attempting to stifle people, for whatever reason may be politically popular at the time, is still bad practice. The problem with "white people shut up" is that in the context of that conversation, it's no longer a dialogue. It's someone preaching you the one single truth as they see it and attempting to demonize and marginalize people when they have the temerity to interrupt the sermon. If you don't want to be interrupted, don't speak in absolutes in regards to huge swathes of society. It's not that hard.
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Jun 19, 2014 00:39
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Popular Thug Drink posted:asking people to consider that their opinion may be useless and unwanted in certain contexts is not stifling debate you giant whiny baby Wah I'm being marginalized either shut up and assent to my stupid opinions or open your mouth and be branded a racist!
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Jun 19, 2014 00:56
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Popular Thug Drink posted:nobody's holding a gun to your head and forcing you to participate in these conversations. the fact that you frame them as sermons indicates you're carrying around a lot of baggage A conversation happens between multiple speaking people, not one sermonizing and telling the others why they shouldn't be allowed to speak. In a thread created by a white dude to talk specifically about white people and what they may or may not do, you still have the extremist tumblr warriors who have to interject to tell everyone just what they're allowed to talk about according to them. This thread isn't an instance of a marginalized person talking about how bad they have it being overridden by annoying white people, and the fact that the argument used for that situation was brought in here just shows it to be the shallow, vaguely racist canned response it truly is.
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Jun 19, 2014 01:07
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Nonsense posted:Tough poo poo you racist baby. Maybe you're not loud enough, maybe you should spend a little money and make sure most of Congress and authority in general looks like you so you can get what you want and shut down these clearly dominating tumblr warriors that exist only in your insane arguments. Right, and you keep pushing forward your vile, lovely version of Tumblr social justice to make it as unpalatable as possible and undo decades of advancement by others. You want to complain about white idiots who interrupt conversations with dumb questions or statements, that's fine. However, when you and your assbag SJW friends intentionally hunt down threads where a white person is asking for information and opinions that don't interrupt or marginalize anyone and still fill it up with your petty bullshit answers, that's represntational of your gang and your movement. It's OK though, because most reasonable people are getting wise to this version of petty bullying bullshit and rightly calling you out for the garbage it is.
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Jun 19, 2014 01:19
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Nonsense posted:Yeah people are really going into threads that feature you, and feature YOUR PEOPLE and calling you a shithead RANDOMLY and INTERRUPTING YOUR PEOPLE, it's not just some crazy coincidence when somebody calls you a shithead in a thread where your posts are freely read by different people besides SJW assbags. It's not even what they're calling me, it's seeking out this thread in particular, where nobody interrupted anyone on telling the world how bad they were marginalized, and then told them to shut up because they are white. The basis of your entire argument revolves around white people interrupting and saying stupid things, yet you brought that premise into a thread where nobody was having a conversation that was interrupted by white people in the first place. It's almost like that entire line of argumentation exists simply as a fall back safe point for people to manipulate the conversation.
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Jun 19, 2014 01:30
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VitalSigns posted:The OP is all about him interrupting another's conversation on Facebook with #notallwhites poo poo. Except instead of continuing his argument and iterruption he made this thread here, where nobody got interrupted and yet the same poo poo arguments were thrown at him, hilariously probably by mostly white people. Also, LOL at SJW=friend of the family lover. drat you folks really are full of yourself.
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Jun 19, 2014 02:11
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"excuse me, you are generalizing but something less than 100.00% of white people are responsible for your oppression or benefit thereby, and I just happen to be the one white man who never oppressed anyone nor benefitted from his whiteness, prove me wrong or you're being reverse racist."
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I mean I can kind of understand because you guys were sold dogma and opinions masquerading as intellectualism and facts for the price of lifetime debt and you're trying to justify it somehow but drat...
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Jun 19, 2014 02:16
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Popular Thug Drink posted:"i hate education, tumblr, and not being able to tell the blacks how it really is" -natetimm I only actually hate one of those things but I'll leave it up to you to decide which.
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Jun 19, 2014 02:21
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EA Sports posted:Everybody faces racism. what do you mean? You better not be a white person relating this anecdote otherwise some black feminist on a blog says shut up.
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Jun 19, 2014 02:22
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Popular Thug Drink posted:i'm guessing the blacks I was going to say that for shock value but I don't really. Is that me shutting up like I'm supposed to?
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Jun 19, 2014 02:27
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Popular Thug Drink posted:i dunno, you can only whine so hard about how the blacks are using tumblr to thought police you before people basically assume you have problems LOL if you think all those tumblrs are run by black people. EDIT: Only on the day when every child of African-American heritage can have their own tumblr, ten throbbing dragon dicks, and seven Final Fantasy character headmates will we ever achieve true equality. new phone who dis fucked around with this message at 02:36 on Jun 19, 2014 |
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Jun 19, 2014 02:28
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VitalSigns posted:Right, he stopped annoying his black friends which was good, and opened this post to be wrong somewhere else. Upon asking for opinions, he got told he was wrong, which you seem to have a problem with, for some reason. Explain how he is wrong. Also, who did I attempt to silence? Who did I tell that they don't get to have an opinion or interrupt? I made fun of them and argued against their opinions, but that's a whole lot different than saying they shouldn't be able to say it in the first place. new phone who dis fucked around with this message at 02:44 on Jun 19, 2014 |
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Jun 19, 2014 02:39
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Ytlaya posted:I sort of understand where posters like natetimm or enbot are coming from, but I can only understand it in terms of the way I thought about things like race as a child. I thought that some people were bad racists and others weren't in a very black/white sense and would have been deeply offended if someone implied that I was a racist. My feelings about black people more or less reflected my father's, and could probably be summed up as "there are black people and then there are niggers LOL"; the modern sort of racism where people don't think all, or even most, black people are bad, but sure as hell are willing to stereotype them*. I think that the majority of people are actually like this; I don't think I've ever met someone who feels the need to emphasize that they aren't a racist who didn't, in fact, have a bunch of pretty racist views. But I honestly can't understand where they're coming from as an adult who should have the capacity for things like empathy. I have no preconceptions of people based on thier race. I don't think there are two different kinds of black people, and I don't stereotype them. I know the mentality you're talking about though, you just have me pegged incorrectly. rear end in a top hat spans all races and creeds and if it came right down to it, I've known way more white assholes per captia than any other race. What it takes to break down the mentality you're talking about is exposure and immersion. That goes double for the tumblr activist mentality as well. The thing both racists of the creed you speak of and the nutbag fringe of tumblr have in common is that the majority of them probably don't interact with the people they have the flaring opinions on in a regular or meanigful way. That's why their opinions are so stupid. One side sees a pathetic group in need of their valiant white knight effort, and the other sees a potential danger they fear. Both those mentalities are rooted in ignorance, and for what it's worth many of the black people I know personally find both mindsets equally offensive. Some actually prefer the open racism to the well-meaning but still ultimately demeaning SJW fringe.
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Jun 19, 2014 04:53
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VitalSigns posted:"You're Overly Sensitive" It's good that you can demonstrate an ability to distill down anything anyone says to the arguments that have been previously fed to you. Congrats, Tumblr is your Fox News.
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Jun 19, 2014 05:49
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VitalSigns posted:Nah this thread could benefit from some additional perspectives. Let's get natetimm's black friend in here. I think it would benefit us all to talk to the black man who gets more offended at criticism of white people on the internet than at being called a thieving friend of the family in real life. You just couldn't imagine a person like that exists who wouldn't think you guys are doing him a real huge favor, huh? EDIT: Oh hey, you want to see what happens when a black guy has opinions that don't jive with the typical leftist hive-mind idiocy? Look no further then SedanChair's avatar. One of your like-minded progressives gave him that for bucking your party line. EDIT: sig =/= avatar new phone who dis fucked around with this message at 06:10 on Jun 19, 2014 |
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Jun 19, 2014 06:01
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VitalSigns posted:I'm not under the delusion that posting on somethingawful dot com is doing anybody any favors, why, are you? Though this does perhaps explain your puzzling commitment to such passionate defense of the poor downtrodden White Man. Yeah how about I buy my black friends accounts so they can come in here and get called Uncle Toms and sellouts by a bunch of angry white manchildren.
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Jun 19, 2014 06:25
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SedanChair posted:Come come, am I not supposed to take it in stride? After all, somebody said something that hurt a white guy's feelings once. You made me laugh out loud at my work desk. I keep looking on their bingo card for the "Buy racist as gently caress avatar for black person who disagrees with me" but I can't find it. That must mean it's not as bad as whatever inane poo poo they have compiled on there.
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Jun 19, 2014 06:32
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It's more like: Many people's ideologies revolve around trying to actively gently caress with the people they deem to be "others" and any benefit afforded to society at large is basically just a side-effect of that process.
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Jun 19, 2014 06:46
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Vanderdeath posted:I don't understand how anyone could deny the fact that systemic racism is literally everywhere in America and is a huge-rear end deal. I mentioned in another thread about how I had to watch my brother explain systemic racism to my nephew since my nephew's grown several inches over the last few months. My nephew is only 15 and lives in a predominantly white area and goes to a predominantly white high school and over the last half year, he's noticed how people look at him when he's hanging out with his mostly white group of friends. Uh, I'm not? Quit putting words in my mouth. I know drat well racism exists and I'm not discrediting anyone's experiences.
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Jun 19, 2014 07:23
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More than a couple of my black friends and co-workers are homophobic as hell but I don't really think that diminishes the effect of racism they have experienced. I actually got the "gays are demonic" speech from one of them recently. I do think that when people who desire to be the mouthpiece or front man for any kind of movement get caught doing it, it hurts their movement. Jesse Jackson hasn't really been relevant in years, though. He's old enough that at this point we're trying to pin a set of ethics on him that's like 4 or 5 generations later than his own. Despite his faults he has been an overall net good for blacks and society in general though. If you want to start picking everyone apart Gandhi wasn't especially tolerant of homosexuality either.
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Jun 19, 2014 07:38
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I don't think it robs the cause of its legitimacy, but when I hear the same argument being used for why white people should shut up in relation to why being gay should not be a protected class (i.e. black suffering is the most important suffering, gay people should shut up about comparing their fight to ours) it makes me think that argument is probably a lovely one.
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Jun 19, 2014 07:53
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SALT CURES HAM posted:Dude, I don't think you're understanding what they hate. No, I understand that completely. I don't even hate progressivism myself, I actually agree with most of it. What I dislike are the lovely mentalities and arguments that come along with it.
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Jun 19, 2014 08:01
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The Mash posted:If a black person or community were to do something that could be considered discriminatory (but non-violent) against a white person and a white person or community were to do the same thing to a black person, would the two things be equally bad? Assuming this happened in present-day USA. Define "bad". Bad implies consequences. What are you gunning for here? That discriminatory practices against white people should be considered less bad in the name of equality? You realize that's the polar opposite of progressive, right?
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Jun 19, 2014 08:21
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Job Truniht posted:"Discrimination" and "Racism" are separate, though. They have entirely different meanings. Your point means nothing without this conflation. I'm here to say that if your goal is a society with no marginalized people, it doesn't make sense to marginalize more in the name of equality. There isn't some limited amount of "bad" floating around in the universe that can only be applied to so many situations before we run out of it. Nothing is harmed and no causes are set back when you admit that when those types of situations are forced on ANYONE of any race, color, creed, sexual orientation they are all equally bad because the goal is for everyone to be equally protected. I understand that as it stands in American society today, people are not equally protected. However, the way to remedy that isn't to start marginalizing other people so we can all have a race to the bottom and feel better about ourselves. It blows my mind that the strategy for some people to foster equality is to make others less equal instead of attempting to give the marginalized a leg up. You compromise your entire set of values once you admit that someone's suffering, pain or marginalization only matters to you as far as your own pet projects, prejudices, and personal opinions. In fact, it's just a reflection of the type of society people are actively trying to work on now, just with different actors playing different parts. It's structurally the same goddamn thing with a different set of priorities.
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Jun 19, 2014 08:48
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Omi-Polari posted:I agree, but I'm sort of resigned to it. And my feeling is that you have to be careful not to let it work you up. If people want to start a club with a "progressive stack" (i.e. a hierarchy flipped upside down) then they're free to do that. But why bother participating? So I don't. I remember this Occupy video from New York where the organizers announced this system and you see the looks on people's faces, like it kind of caught them by surprise. So peace out of there, and most people do. I'm like the uber-troll because while I spend part of my time beating progressives over the head for this poo poo, in real life I spend time advancing progressive causes like gay rights, a living wage, and lecturing a few of my friends why saying "nigga" is still stupid if you're white.
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Jun 19, 2014 09:07
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Job Truniht posted:The existence of the oppressed always confirms the existence of the oppressor. The most immediate, effective cure is to eliminate the oppressors. Force against who, though? Average white idiots? Do most black people(or any people, really) even understand the system that is oppressing them and where force would be most useful? Do they have the capability to apply that force if they wanted to? Hell, do privileged-rear end white people even have that ability? It's not that their cause isn't good enough for the application of force, it's that the system is rigged completely against them if it comes to that. Black people using force would end up with a whole bunch more of them dead or in prison and a bunch of sideline racist idiots lining up to tell everyone "I told you so."
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Jun 19, 2014 09:11
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AA fails simply because it comes too late. Blacks are marginalized from birth on and the attempt of AA to address that effect doesn't occur until 18 years later. That's 18 years where a black person has to get an education from lovely underfunded schools good enough to compete on a national level for college spots, while avoiding law enforcement contact, early pregnancies, and a myriad of other factors impacting them disproportionately. It's well-meaning but you can tell it was designed by white people who didn't know any better because the assumption is there that everyone has an equal path to access college at the end of their high school career. Often times it's just too far a jump to make for students who start out significantly in the hole. Its existence doesn't really bother me, but it's not really a surprise that it primarily benefits the wealthy who have access to better resources for the 18 years before college selection is made. It's like trying to build a castle in a swamp without laying a foundation over and over again. The best way to ensure the success of black kids would be to stabilize their home lives by creating programs that benefit adults right now. Making living wage jobs available to their parents, improving their schools, and funding social programs filling the gap for their lack of resources(often times a second income from a second parent) would go much farther to end the educational disparity than adding a scoring metric to college applications. new phone who dis fucked around with this message at 20:24 on Jun 19, 2014 |
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Jun 19, 2014 20:13
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Zeitgueist posted:Sure, but nobody is doing this, and people are actively trying to destroy AA. AA isn't really accomplishing its goals and mostly exists as a program to make others feel better. Like so many wedge issues, it's really just an opportunity to display your allegiance to one cause or another.
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Jun 19, 2014 20:45
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VitalSigns posted:Oh gently caress off with this lazy rear end criticism. "Heh. I bet you are just trying to feel good about yourself, therefore your motives are bad and I don't have to agree to address inequality." How about, rather than scrapping AA and hoping it all works out, you kill the arguments for AA by proposing a superior plan that solves the inequality and makes attempts at AA obsolete. Pretty sure i had a substantial post on the last page that did exactly this. I honestly could live with or without affirmative action, it's not a huge deal for me. It's just kind of weird how some people cling to things based on their political stances rather than the system actually working. Congrats, you've got a system that lets rich people from out of country cut in line in front of everyone else. Cling to it like some kind of life preserver if you want, but there are way better options for helping poor people of all stripes than creating tiny niche programs that divide them up into subcategories based on the color of their skin. Again, it's just implementing the current inequitable system with different players at different positions. It's not radical or progressive, it's just the same pendulum swinign back and forth with the court of public opinion.
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Jun 19, 2014 22:48
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VitalSigns posted:OK fair enough, I somehow missed that post of yours, I apologize. But, why do you assume leftists are against addressing wealth inequalities or funding elementary education? For someone who is Very Concerned about whether leftists are posturing, you sure seem very fixated on scoring points by accusing people of not "really caring" about racism. Why not lead with those positive ideas of yours, and if the liberal says "Nah, AA is good enough" then telling them they're not trying to address the real problem actually makes sense. Especially because as we address inequality in wealth, opportunity, education, etc then the student population of the beneficiaries will increase as a result, causing colleges to naturally scale back their racial weightings. I think racism is actually a symptom of our broken economic system and people spend a lot of time and effort trying to avoid symptoms rather than cure the illness. I think a rearrangement of capitalism where everyone who wants a job with a living wage could get one would alleviate a lot of this racial disparity. As long as the resources available for the general population are spread so thin, people are going to find ways to redirect them to the folks they consider to be part of "us" at the cost of "them". Those groups and their compositions may change over time, but the standard framework is always going to be there. If you look at parts of Europe where the general population is actually probably more racist than your average American, they don't have nearly the issues we do with endemic racism because their problems of economic equality are better addressed. That's what large parts of occupy were trying to get at before they got bogged down by the same stupid mentalities I'm arguing against in this thread. All of a sudden every person with a personal agenda with an axe to grind was showing up and adding their list of weird demands to a movement that really only needed to focus on their major issue. The same privilege accusation fests and personal suffering contests that populate this thread and other areas of the internet weighed down and divided people who largely should have been advocating for the same thing that would benefit all of them. The more I think about it and watch it happen, the more I think the concept of privilege is used not as a tool of reform or progression, but as a petty accusation to foster personal grievances that propogates infighting and finger-pointing. From my observations, most of the people going back and forth about that type of thing would probably all agree on the larger issues at hand facing entire generations but they're too bogged down in their own dogma to see the big picture. You're never going to get the majoirty of white America to agree to sit down and shut up because the majority of all people are loud mouthed assholes with varying opnions that probably aren't ever going to be ideologically pure enough to fit that mold. It sucks, but I'm fairly certain that dealing with idiots who won't shut up and ask stupid questions who end up supporting your general cause in the end is how the majority of coalitions go about business everywhere in the world. An ally doesn't have to agree with everything you say, they just have to have your back when it counts.
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Jun 19, 2014 23:38
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VitalSigns posted:Why is the onus on progressives to let institutional racism slide, rather than on the people who apparently would totally agree to end poverty and establish social democracy but vote Republican because they're angry that a black person made them feel guilty or whatever you're saying? Why can't the onus be on those people to just get over it? Especially since grumbling about white people has zero material effect on their lives? I don't think in the current legal and political environment you could truly set up poverty initiatives that locked out any specific race, except maybe white people. It's not that you have to let institutional racism slide, you just have to keep your eye on the big prize instead of getting caught up in a tertiary issue. How valuable really is your time spent as an activist trolling white people with privilege bullshit? What does that accomplish besides preaching to the choir and making you and a small group of like-minded individuals feel superior for posting on the internet? The problem isn't that white people's perceived special status needs to be stripped away or mocked, the problem is that status needs to be conferred on everyone. When you set up a movement to mock and deride the same status you actually claim to fight for in other conversations, you're undermining your own end goal. Good activists appeal to people on a level that resonates with them personally, history has shown this over and over. Human beings love to comisserate and attempt to identify with the plight of others, even if it's done in an insensitive manner. If someone is saying they totally understand your pain or struggle because of their stupid white people problems yes it's annoying, but the bigger, more important issue is that they are trying to internalize and personalize your struggle to identify with it and support it. They don't have to be a lock-step idealist in your army for that to happen.
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Jun 20, 2014 01:13
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VitalSigns posted:Is the problem that gay or black activists are endlessly trolling white people for shits and giggles? Or is the problem that black people say something like, "this voter ID disenfranchises poor (thus mostly black) people for the following reasons" only to have white people ignore everything they say call and them lazy and stupid because "hey, getting a license isn't that hard, get off your rear end"? Except that's not "it". It's being told to shut the gently caress up and don't ask questions because you're white. It's being told not to pipe up at the occupy rally because you're privileged and this protest isn't about you. The privilege platform has continued to morph into something uglier and more far-reaching than just realizing you may have had it better than someone. It's a billy club wielded by extremists to silence dissent, a fallback argument for any cornered idiot and the lynchpin for actual racists to address and demonize white people as some sort of monolithic entity.
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Jun 20, 2014 03:31
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[This is what conservative white people in Texas actually believe]
plantation. Your fixation on whether pig ignorant people get their feelings hurt when they say schools are fine, black people just need to be held accountable for failure is absurd.
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SedanChair posted:No man it is the specific combination of being white, ignorant and unwilling to learn. And before you question the "unwilling to learn" part, laying supine on the ground groaning "POUR EDUCATION INTO MY MOUTH, I'LL BE THE JUDGE OF WHETHER OR NOT TO SWALLOW IT" is not willingness to learn. Except that's how every human being on Earth gets educated and processes knowledge. It's not some sort of phenomenon unique to white people.
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Jun 20, 2014 04:11
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SedanChair posted:Again no, it's the specific kind of smug demanding that we exist in a perpetual state of proving racism exists. Links go unclicked, studies go unread. People who raise their voices get labeled "angry" and "not exactly helping the cause of your people." Yes those people are assholes, but they aren't representative of an entire race or even a majority of it. You would have to be a loving insane person to think that racism doesn't exist in the US, and that isn't some kind of quality globally applicable to all white people.
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Jun 20, 2014 04:30
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Popular Thug Drink posted:The only people who literally actually unironically believe this have huge problems with latent racism irl, for real. IF your stance continues to be that people who disagree with being told to shut up because they are white are latent racists, I'm just going to assume you are also a latent racist. because apparently that's the barrier for entry in this debate. Some rear end in a top hat getting upset you disagree with him so he calls you a racist.
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Jun 20, 2014 04:40
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soundnthefury posted:Why are most Tumblr types or SJW being written off as self-aggrandizing and disingenuous? I thought your entire point was that more folks were speaking in good faith than currently assumed? How does one discern those disagreeing in earnest and those trying to monopolize or interrupt dialogue about potentially upending a status quo that currently benefits them, even if only slightly? Because the culture that has grown up around these online movements is a toxic cabal of back-patters and self-aggrandizers for whom the actual pursuit of justice or meaningful change takes a backseat to making themselves feel superior over others. There's nothing of merit being produced by them, it's a giant echo chamber of petty bullies blogging and reblogging each others' narcissistic bullshit.
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Jun 20, 2014 04:44
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VitalSigns posted:Well if minorities are going to agitate for their rights, they're going to do it in messy, complicated ways, and they don't need hectoring schoolmarms policing their tone. If you think for a minute that anything that has ever occurreed on Tumblr has come close to being as politically relevant as the actual political action portrayed in that pic you're very mistaken. If anything, I would have MORE respect for the Tumblr crowd if they engaged the political process and actually agitated for change instead of constantly fellating each other. Your'e mistaking my disdain for their particular brand of vile slacktivism for disdain of activism as a whole. new phone who dis fucked around with this message at 05:19 on Jun 20, 2014 |
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Jun 20, 2014 05:02
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