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This is a discussion that was born in the anti-vax thread and has hopefully been moved here. Information on Autism Speaks can be found here and I'll be putting in a few of the more juicy points here as appetizers.quote:Autism Speaks was responsible for “Autism Every Day”, which featured a member of their board talking about contemplating murder-suicide of her daughter in front of her daughter. This has now be removed from Autism Speaks’ Youtube channel. quote:Autism Speaks has violated copyright and has profited off an autistic advocate’s writing for three years. quote:There is not a single autistic person on Autism Speaks’ This is like having a 'Woman Speaks' group where the board of directors are all men. Or a 'homosexuality speaks' where its all straight people, talking about how much of a burden homosexuality is and gosh darnit won't it be nice once we have a cure? The discussion was currently talking about Autism as a disease, or mental illness, or just a different way of thinking. Some of the arguments, that Autism is bad and there's nobody out there who wouldn't want to cure it. Except there is no cure. I'm going to quote my friend here, who once again knows more about Autism than I ever will. She has struggled, and continues to, but she's one of the nicest people I've ever met. My Friend posted:It's questionable whether Autism is a "disease" in any meaningful sense as opposed to simply a difference in neurology with both positive and negative aspects. Tay-Sachs is a degenerative nerve disorder that usually kills people by the age of four. Big difference between that and autism. Or even that and deafness, which is generally considered entirely negative in its effects, but doesn't involve any harm to the person other than being deaf. And last I checked, Autism Speaks does not outright state they want a mandatory cure or genocide... but their complete disregard for autistic people and focusing only on their caretakers means they want the latter, not the actual autistic people themselves, to be in control of the cure/screening, which is all kinds of hosed up.
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Jun 28, 2014 21:24
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I am not sure what you are getting at with this thread, but I thought YOSPOS was the place to discuss autistic things
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Jun 28, 2014 21:33
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Jagchosis posted:I am not sure what you are getting at with this thread, but I thought YOSPOS was the place to discuss autistic things http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3619508&pagenumber=16&perpage=40#post431478563 I said where this discussion came from.
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Jun 28, 2014 21:37
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quote:This is like having a 'Woman Speaks' group where the board of directors are all men. Or a 'homosexuality speaks' where its all straight people, talking about how much of a burden homosexuality is and gosh darnit won't it be nice once we have a cure? The best you'd be able to get is a high-functioning autist, who would not necessarily represent the needs of low-functioning autists. But yeah, I guess a token autist would be nice.  quote:Or even that and deafness, which is generally considered entirely negative in its effects, but doesn't involve any harm to the person other than being deaf. "Other than having no movement capability without some outside mechanism, being quadriplegic involves no harm to the person." quote:In a very real sense, a cure, if it existed, would by its very nature effectively kill the autistic person in favor of having someone entirely different inhabit the body. Just like a cure for paranoid schizophrenia would fundamentally change the person (since they would no longer suffer from the effects of paranoid schizophrenia); I'm not sure what the point of this is?
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Jun 28, 2014 21:42
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Autism is a difference in mental capacity. It is a disease in that it prevents full participation in society, compared to a person who is merely dull. Does that make these individuals necessarily ill? Just the opposite; I think all of us know at least one somewhat autistic person ( ), who holds an everyday job, and lives on their own perfectly well. The term "mental illness", I feel, does not really apply to those along the autism spectrum. I would consider it more apt towards someone with bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, or even OCD. Surely, some people with autism will require care beyond their own capacity. I'm not sure there's really a way to qualify that! As for that woman - she sucks. Murder is bad. 
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Jun 28, 2014 21:42
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So what representation do you want. Do you want a high functioning autistic who wouldn't be the type to want a 'cure' most likely anyway? Do you want an internet aspie who totally is on the spectrum guys one time he arranged his skittles by color just to have a token? Do you want an actual, low functioning, autistic who needs a helper at board meetings to keep him from screaming when people ask him questions? This isn't like a women's group or a gay group, autism is a mental disability.
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Jun 28, 2014 21:45
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I got dragged to these events a lot because my ex-wife is a BCBA. Full of really sad, distressed-looking parents dumping thousands on pseudoscience that dominates all the booths at events like Walk for Autism. Magnet healing, chelation, crystals, weird chiropractor machines that only the controller could interpret. My personal favorite were the extremely heavy weight jackets (up to 70 pounds, I think?) meant to exhaust your child when they're having a fit but in reality will just make them extremely fit once puberty begins.
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Jun 28, 2014 21:46
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There's a lot more wrong with our understanding of autism than Autism Speaks and other narcissist, obsessed parent groups. A great deal of autism diagnoses come from specialists' stressing early diagnosis so intervention can begin. Lots and lots of "normal" kids get misdiagnosed as being on the autism spectrum, just like they do with ADHD. It's not necessarily a racket but it certainly is a craze.
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Jun 28, 2014 21:46
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I hope enough people receive the news that most vaccines have deadly levels of mercury in them.
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Jun 28, 2014 21:49
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Aliquid posted:I got dragged to these events a lot because my ex-wife is a BCBA. Full of really sad, distressed-looking parents dumping thousands on pseudoscience that dominates all the booths at events like Walk for Autism. Magnet healing, chelation, crystals, weird chiropractor machines that only the controller could interpret. My personal favorite were the extremely heavy weight jackets (up to 70 pounds, I think?) meant to exhaust your child when they're having a fit but in reality will just make them extremely fit once puberty begins. Buff autistics are the future, they'll dominate us if we don't stop them now.
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Jun 28, 2014 21:49
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Even if the antivax assholes were right, they think their children would be better off dead than autistic, so gently caress 'em.
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Jun 28, 2014 21:55
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Tatum Girlparts posted:This isn't like a women's group or a gay group, autism is a mental disability. You do remember that homosexuality was at one point, labeled a mental disability and disorder, and attempted to be fixed via chemical castration? Remember Turing, who ended up potentially killing himself over it? "They're different, they're not normal, therefore they are lesser."
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Jun 28, 2014 21:56
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Pope Guilty posted:Even if the antivax assholes were right, they think their children would be better off dead than autistic, so gently caress 'em. This. I used to see this every day. It was always a good day when I got to spend time talking to the One Cool Parent who actually enjoyed life and wasn't dead on the inside.
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Jun 28, 2014 21:57
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E-Tank posted:You do remember that homosexuality was at one point, labeled a mental disability and disorder, and attempted to be fixed via chemical castration? So you're saying that autism isn't a mental disability? 
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Jun 28, 2014 21:58
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E-Tank posted:You do remember that homosexuality was at one point, labeled a mental disability and disorder, and attempted to be fixed via chemical castration? Remember Turing, who ended up potentially killing himself over it? Look, I'm no fan of the "LITERALLY EVERY SINGLE PERSON WITH AUTISM IS A BARELY FUNCTIONING WRECK WHO NEEDS CONSTANT MONITORING" bullshit, but I'm also pretty sure there's no form of homosexuality that results in this kind of poo poo: Tatum Girlparts posted:an actual, low functioning, autistic who needs a helper at board meetings to keep him from screaming when people ask him questions?
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Jun 28, 2014 22:00
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ThirdPartyView posted:So you're saying that autism isn't a mental disability? Not everywhere on the spectrum, no.
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Jun 28, 2014 22:02
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Gen. Ripper posted:I'm also pretty sure there's no form of homosexuality that results in this kind of poo poo: Clearly you were never involved in a university LGBT group. 
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Jun 28, 2014 22:03
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ThirdPartyView posted:So you're saying that autism isn't a mental disability? My Friend posted:It's questionable whether Autism is a "disease" in any meaningful sense as opposed to simply a difference in neurology with both positive and negative aspects. My friend is autistic. I'm going mostly based on her opinions and feelings on the matter. Tatum Girlparts posted:So what representation do you want. Do you want a high functioning autistic who wouldn't be the type to want a 'cure' most likely anyway? Do you want an internet aspie who totally is on the spectrum guys one time he arranged his skittles by color just to have a token? Do you want an actual, low functioning, autistic who needs a helper at board meetings to keep him from screaming when people ask him questions? How about *any* representation? That'd be a loving start.
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Jun 28, 2014 22:05
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E-Tank posted:My friend is autistic. I'm going mostly based on her opinions and feelings on the matter.
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Jun 28, 2014 22:09
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Chris-chan & Jenny McCarthy has pretty thoroughly destroyed any serious autism awareness in government.
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Jun 28, 2014 22:11
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Unless your friend is also a doctor her feelings and opinions on neurodevelopmental disorders aren't hugely relevant.
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Jun 28, 2014 22:13
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Again, we see the IMO dumb argument that correcting a mental condition makes someone a "different person". As I mentioned in the other thread, this is the kind of stuff that kept me from going to mental health experts when I was younger. It is some seriously disordered thinking and needs to be combated at every level. There is no authentic you, different you, or whatever. Messing with your brain still has you be the same person the same way that you'd still be the same person after getting a heart operation or having an amputation. I'd as soon fix someone with autism as fix someone with Downs. It's not something that's currently possible, but looking at it in this way is a surefire way to ensure that we never make any progress. Could you imagine if we had similar BS going around when anti-psychotics were first invented? I know to some extent D&D is anti-psych (or at least has a good number of anti-psych boosters who post on said topics) but you need to understand that it's an inherently anti-science and backward position to come from, where you leave a bunch of people to fail to cope with life-- but at least they are the "same person" or some garbage which is important for reasons.
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Jun 28, 2014 22:13
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Calling a cure for autism "murder" or "genocide" just reeks of scare-mongering of the exact same variety that Autism Speaks uses. People with autism are not a race, nor is autism their sole defining trait (except perhaps in the severe or most extreme cases) any more than depression or OCD is the sole defining trait of those that have it. If someone who is autistic were somehow cured they would be the same person, just no longer autistic. If that was the same thing as killing them then there are millions of murders ever day whenever drunks and druggies sober up.
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Jun 28, 2014 22:15
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rkajdi posted:Could you imagine if we had similar BS going around when anti-psychotics were first invented? Pretty certain the Birchers were (and Scientology keeps the tradition going).
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Jun 28, 2014 22:16
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twodot posted:I think there is a fairly solid argument for "More than 0% of the time, doctors diagnose people as autistic, when their mental condition is not actually detrimental.", but any definition of autism that doesn't contain "disorder" is obviously broken. In plenty of cases, sure, though in the past those same people might have been diagnosed with mental retardation. Maybe they should never have been moved out of that category. But how oddly specific we are in our definition of "disorder." Which is more debilitating, to flap your arms and hop in place while playing video games or to lack all capacity for analysis or introspection and fail to recognize the danger in Rick Santorum's eyes? To have a detailed interest in trains or to fear people based on their race? e: rkajdi posted:Again, we see the IMO dumb argument that correcting a mental condition makes someone a "different person". Don't backtrack to this, you've already admitted that you think it would be beneficial for all persons who fit your definition of having a "mental condition" to be "cured" by not existing.
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Jun 28, 2014 22:27
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ThirdPartyView posted:Pretty certain the Birchers were (and Scientology keeps the tradition going). Of course Birchers would be. With some decent anti-paranoia medication, they'd lose most of their membership.
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Jun 28, 2014 22:29
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rkajdi posted:Again, we see the IMO dumb argument that correcting a mental condition makes someone a "different person". http://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/different-person-personality-change-often-brain-injurys-hidden-toll-f8C11152322 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage quote:Harlow described the pre-accident Gage as hard-working, responsible, and "a great favorite" with the men in his charge, his employers having regarded him as "the most efficient and capable foreman in their employ". But these same employers, after Gage's accident, "considered the change in his mind so marked that they could not give him his place again": In order to 'fix' Autism, we have to literally take the brain apart, and re-wire it. That's also the difference between paranoid schizophrenia and Autism. Autism is the brain is wired and works a different way than normal. Paranoid Schizophrenia is, to my knowledge, the brain misfiring and interpreting wrong information. Leading to potential hallucinations and paranoid delusions. Rent-A-Cop posted:Unless your friend is also a doctor her feelings and opinions on neurodevelopmental disorders aren't hugely relevant. You're right, the feelings, opinions, and experiences of people who actually have the disorders are irrelevant because you say so. I mean gently caress what they have to say about their own issues and experiences, right? You know more than them on this regard. They've just lived it, you've heard about it which clearly gives you much better insight.
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Jun 28, 2014 22:33
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rkajdi posted:Again, we see the IMO dumb argument that correcting a mental condition makes someone a "different person". As I mentioned in the other thread, this is the kind of stuff that kept me from going to mental health experts when I was younger. It is some seriously disordered thinking and needs to be combated at every level. There is no authentic you, different you, or whatever. Messing with your brain still has you be the same person the same way that you'd still be the same person after getting a heart operation or having an amputation. I'd as soon fix someone with autism as fix someone with Downs. It's not something that's currently possible, but looking at it in this way is a surefire way to ensure that we never make any progress. Could you imagine if we had similar BS going around when anti-psychotics were first invented? I know to some extent D&D is anti-psych (or at least has a good number of anti-psych boosters who post on said topics) but you need to understand that it's an inherently anti-science and backward position to come from, where you leave a bunch of people to fail to cope with life-- but at least they are the "same person" or some garbage which is important for reasons. That really depends on what "person" means to you, which is a pretty much 100% arbitrary value judgement. By many defintions, correcting a mental condition does effectively produce a different person. The question is whether that's a bad thing. E-Tank posted:You're right, the feelings, opinions, and experiences of people who actually have the disorders are irrelevant because you say so. I have Crohn's Disease, my thoughts on treatment of Crohn's Disease mean fuckall.
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Jun 28, 2014 22:34
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rkajdi posted:Of course Birchers would be. With some decent anti-paranoia medication, they'd lose most of their membership. Yes, medicate all who are guilty of thought deviance.
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Jun 28, 2014 22:35
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SedanChair posted:Yes, medicate all who are guilty of thought deviance. Lobotomies for all! Hooray! 
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Jun 28, 2014 22:36
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SedanChair posted:But how oddly specific we are in our definition of "disorder." Which is more debilitating, to flap your arms and hop in place while playing video games or to lack all capacity for analysis or introspection and fail to recognize the danger in Rick Santorum's eyes? To have a detailed interest in trains or to fear people based on their race? You can't teach someone out of being autistic. You can teach people out of being gullible or racist. See the difference? Also, why are we discussing the mild end of the spectrum? Lots of autistic people are much more disabled, and can't have anything resembling a normal life. quote:Don't backtrack to this, you've already admitted that you think it would be beneficial for all persons who fit your definition of having a "mental condition" to be "cured" by not existing. Incorrect version of my position. I'd prefer a cure, but I see nothing wrong with a mother choosing abortion if the fetus has congential issues, or for any other reason. But thanks for bringing back up your anti-choice garbage points. Their abortions are the only immoral abortions, I guess.
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Jun 28, 2014 22:37
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ThirdPartyView posted:Lobotomies for all! Hooray! Well that was the thought process for a while. Got an unruly teenager? Lobotomize him! Depressed daughter? Lobotomy! Child's acting just fine, but you feel like he could be doing more? Time to stick an icepick into his brain!
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Jun 28, 2014 22:38
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SedanChair posted:In plenty of cases, sure, though in the past those same people might have been diagnosed with mental retardation. Maybe they should never have been moved out of that category. One of those issues is due to a congenital neurological disorder, the other is due to social pressures and brainwashing from right-wing media sources. You're right, completely comparable situations.
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Jun 28, 2014 22:38
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rkajdi posted:You can't teach someone out of being autistic. Do you know how autism therapy works? Yeah they don't stop being autistic, but in many cases they learn to live with it. Xyven posted:One of those issues is due to a congenital neurological disorder, the other is due to social pressures and brainwashing from right-wing media sources. You're right, completely comparable situations. My entire point is that they are not comparable, one is much more severe, debilitating and harmful to society. However we overlook it because we are dumb and fear "sickness," like you.
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Jun 28, 2014 22:41
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Captain Oblivious posted:I have Crohn's Disease, my thoughts on treatment of Crohn's Disease mean fuckall. Yes, these two things are totally the same. After all, we have a group called 'Crohn speaks' that tells you outright that if you have a child with Crohn's disease, your marriage will fail. Maybe you don't know exactly what the act of treating it entails, but I'm pretty sure you'd be pissed off if someone told you that the EXPERIENCES you have had with the disease don't matter and aren't relevant to a discussion regarding it simply because you're not a doctor.
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Jun 28, 2014 22:41
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SedanChair posted:Yes, medicate all who are guilty of thought deviance. So obviously we should withhold and suppress the existence or discovery of treatments for these things, even if the affected want them.
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Jun 28, 2014 22:42
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We don't even really know what causes Autism, so I doubt a cure is coming anytime soon. Have you guys seen 'Equilibrium'?
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Jun 28, 2014 22:43
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SedanChair posted:But how oddly specific we are in our definition of "disorder." Which is more debilitating, to flap your arms and hop in place while playing video games or to lack all capacity for analysis or introspection and fail to recognize the danger in Rick Santorum's eyes? To have a detailed interest in trains or to fear people based on their race?
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Jun 28, 2014 22:43
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SedanChair posted:Do you know how autism therapy works? Yeah they don't stop being autistic, but in many cases they learn to live with it. And speaking to gullibility and racism, what is NPR LiberalismTM if not a series of coping strategies for intaking news media with a ritual pantomime of incredulity while preserving at-best paternalistic beliefs simultaneous with a public face of gentile egalitarianism?
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Jun 28, 2014 22:45
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SedanChair posted:My entire point is that they are not comparable, one is much more severe, debilitating and harmful to society. However we overlook it because we are dumb and fear "sickness," like you. I have no idea what you mean by fearing SCARE QUOTES SICKNESS, and randomly assuming my motivations from a short post seems a bit ambitious. I'm not even sure what argument you're trying to make, do you think that being stupid or brainwashed should be treated as an illness? Or are you saying that Autism isn't an illness because it's not sufficiently damaging to larger society?
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Jun 28, 2014 22:49
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