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McDowell posted:We don't even really know what causes Autism, so I doubt a cure is coming anytime soon. Exactly. The clinical perspective on autism is not a scientific approach to diagnosis in the first place. It comes from the discredited realm of early psychology and has certainly not been reformed in the meantime.
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Jun 28, 2014 22:50
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E-Tank posted:http://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/different-person-personality-change-often-brain-injurys-hidden-toll-f8C11152322 Phineas Gage was the same person before and after the accident. He acted differently, but he was still a continuation of the same individual. People tend to act differently after traumatic experience (or really any kind of experience), regardless of brain damage. Does that make them different people? If so, you're literally a different person every second of every day. How do you determine which time period is the "real" you worth protecting? Seriously, the idea is incredibly disordered. Misfiring neurons can have a structural underpinning in the brain. Fixing them requires doing stuff to brain chemicals, which is every bit as much reworking as whatever theoretical thing we'd have to do to fix autism. Reworking a brain for that it functions properly is a good thing, not a bad one that robs people of "identity", whatever that means. quote:You're right, the feelings, opinions, and experiences of people who actually have the disorders are irrelevant because you say so. I mean gently caress what they have to say about their own issues and experiences, right? You know more than them on this regard. They've just lived it, you've heard about it which clearly gives you much better insight. It gives them some insight into the internal condition, but nothing that's really useful in fixing it. If there was special insight given into these conditions foudn by having them, they would have been solved long ago. Psychology is so weird in D&D, because it's where the anti-science crankery comes out and gets support. You can be anti-psych here and get lots of praise you'd never get for being anti-vaxx or a climate change denialist.
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Jun 28, 2014 22:51
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E-Tank posted:In order to 'fix' Autism, we have to literally take the brain apart, and re-wire it. That's also the difference between paranoid schizophrenia and Autism. Autism is the brain is wired and works a different way than normal. Hello I was diagnosed with autism late (age 4) and now no longer am "flagged" when retested for curiositys sake. The early schizophrenic symptoms play into that but hey, even autism has fluidity with other mental disorders. As someone involved in research and having lived with the condition and worked with advocacy groups, it's a loving disease. We are not "wired in a different way" and I want to punch every stupid arsehole that says this in the throat. Current science points towards an early life sensory overload due to an inability to process information correctly that leaves you permanently mentally damaged. I learnt, as a teenager, how to read people and compensate, and got a social life. Learning how to do this meant that afterwards I kept working at these skills, and am now extremely sociable, outgoing, and have no autism-related issues. I do still have to actively read expressions and I will never do it automatically in my life, and getting drunk essentially shuts down all my forced social skill. It's a disease and if you offered to fix it I'd snap your hand off. "Their brains are wired differently", say researchers who haven't noticed the last 20 years of neurological study nor heard of "neuroplasticity".
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Jun 28, 2014 22:52
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SedanChair posted:Do you know how autism therapy works? Yeah they don't stop being autistic, but in many cases they learn to live with it. You're literally agreeing with me, dumbass. You can't teach someone out of being autistic, you can teach them out of being gullible or racist. Those were the two examples you gave as being "disorders" that weren't diagnosed as such. That's why autism is a disorder, while racism and gullibility are just being a shithead.
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Jun 28, 2014 22:56
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opinions are useful for underpinning case studies and assessing quality of life. Also, I thought there was research showing correlating in utero factors?
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Jun 28, 2014 22:58
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Spangly A posted:It's a disease and if you offered to fix it I'd snap your hand off. This is such a bizarre opinion that I don't understand how you can hold it without collapsing from the contradiction inherent in that statement. If you really considered it a disease you would kiss someone offering to fix it.
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Jun 28, 2014 22:59
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rkajdi posted:Again, we see the IMO dumb argument that correcting a mental condition makes someone a "different person". As I mentioned in the other thread, this is the kind of stuff that kept me from going to mental health experts when I was younger. It is some seriously disordered thinking and needs to be combated at every level. There is no authentic you, different you, or whatever. Messing with your brain still has you be the same person the same way that you'd still be the same person after getting a heart operation or having an amputation. I'd as soon fix someone with autism as fix someone with Downs. It's not something that's currently possible, but looking at it in this way is a surefire way to ensure that we never make any progress. Could you imagine if we had similar BS going around when anti-psychotics were first invented? I know to some extent D&D is anti-psych (or at least has a good number of anti-psych boosters who post on said topics) but you need to understand that it's an inherently anti-science and backward position to come from, where you leave a bunch of people to fail to cope with life-- but at least they are the "same person" or some garbage which is important for reasons. No, "messing with your brain" as you put it can absolutely make you a different person. That has been extensively scientifically documented for well over a hundred years. Dualism is crap, who you are is a function of neurology (since even the things you have experienced are stored tangibly), and altering neurology alters you. The question is whether this results in a higher quality of life. Generally, since you are going to see a doctor about it, the answer is yes.
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Jun 28, 2014 23:02
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Xyven posted:This is such a bizarre opinion that I don't understand how you can hold it without collapsing from the contradiction inherent in that statement. If you really considered it a disease you would kiss someone offering to fix it. He meant if you offered him a cure, he'd be so eager to take it that he's accidentally snap your hand off in going for it. Presumably.
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Jun 28, 2014 23:03
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Continuing the thought process of what makes someone a "person", how would one view someone with an addiction? These people can act wildly differently before, during, and after indulging in their addiction. And what about if someone goes through addiction therapy? If successful, they will think and act very differently than when they suffered from their affliction, so does the treatment effectively kill the addicted personality and replace it with the new one? If not, then how is curing something like autism effectively killing them? -EDIT- Xyven posted:This is such a bizarre opinion that I don't understand how you can hold it without collapsing from the contradiction inherent in that statement. If you really considered it a disease you would kiss someone offering to fix it. Break their hand from shaking it. e: Or what Captain_Maclaine said. Who What Now fucked around with this message at 23:06 on Jun 28, 2014 |
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Jun 28, 2014 23:03
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rkajdi posted:You're literally agreeing with me, dumbass. You can't teach someone out of being autistic, you can teach them out of being gullible or racist. Those were the two examples you gave as being "disorders" that weren't diagnosed as such. That's why autism is a disorder, while racism and gullibility are just being a shithead. Can you teach those people though? People come to realizations on their own, but if they are not ready your efforts will only harden their resolve.
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Jun 28, 2014 23:07
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Just to be clear, the universal consensus is that addiction is a chronic condition that can't be cured. It's also generally understood more as having a caustic than a shifting effect on the sense of self or individual personality- Addicted people are permanently impaired in their abilities to think and feel in relation to the associated substance. The best you can get is a sort of remission state, where the individual still requires self-monitoring and ideally monitoring by a social support network. I don't think this causes any problems for your rhetorical questions, I just want to suggest a degree of caution in the analogy, and provide some grounding info on addiction in case it continues to be used in the thread as a comparison point for attitudes regarding the self and autism spectrum disorders.
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Jun 28, 2014 23:08
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Fried Chicken posted:No, "messing with your brain" as you put it can absolutely make you a different person. That has been extensively scientifically documented for well over a hundred years. Dualism is crap, who you are is a function of neurology (since even the things you have experienced are stored tangibly), and altering neurology alters you. I'm not agruing dualism at all-- exactly the opposite in fact. Your brain is an organ exactly the same as every other organ in your body. Is someone a different person because they have heart surgery? Also, is someone a different person after having brain sugery to remove a tumor? I hate dualism because at its heart it treats your mental condition as something special and inherently different from the rest of reality. My argument is this "authentic you"/different person idea is flawed from the start. It's an idea that gets hung out there when there is reality to base it on. So we're better off ignoring it, or conversely acting "you" is infinitely fungible for the same body.
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Jun 28, 2014 23:11
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Fried Chicken posted:No, "messing with your brain" as you put it can absolutely make you a different person. That has been extensively scientifically documented for well over a hundred years. Dualism is crap, who you are is a function of neurology (since even the things you have experienced are stored tangibly), and altering neurology alters you. He isn't committed to dualism, only anti-essesntialism. There is no essential quality that makes you the person you are.
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Jun 28, 2014 23:12
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SedanChair posted:Can you teach those people though? People come to realizations on their own, but if they are not ready your efforts will only harden their resolve. Coming to a realization is teaching, just not by an individual. It's all external stimulus, which is my point. To my knowledge, there's no set of stimuli that make an autistic person not autistic. If there was we'd have people lined up around the block for that therapy.
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Jun 28, 2014 23:16
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That's because autism is mostly pretend in the first place.rkajdi posted:I'm not agruing dualism at all-- exactly the opposite in fact. Your brain is an organ exactly the same as every other organ in your body. Is someone a different person because they have heart surgery? Also, is someone a different person after having brain sugery to remove a tumor? I hate dualism because at its heart it treats your mental condition as something special and inherently different from the rest of reality. My argument is this "authentic you"/different person idea is flawed from the start. It's an idea that gets hung out there when there is reality to base it on. So we're better off ignoring it, or conversely acting "you" is infinitely fungible for the same body. Who should decide how each person gets to be?
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Jun 28, 2014 23:17
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Discendo Vox posted:Just to be clear, the universal consensus is that addiction is a chronic condition that can't be cured. It's also generally understood more as having a caustic than a shifting effect on the sense of self or individual personality- Addicted people are permanently impaired in their abilities to think and feel in relation to the associated substance. The best you can get is a sort of remission state, where the individual still requires self-monitoring and ideally monitoring by a social support network. I don't think this causes any problems for your rhetorical questions, I just want to suggest a degree of caution in the analogy, and provide some grounding info on addiction in case it continues to be used in the thread as a comparison point for attitudes regarding the self and autism spectrum disorders. Its not universal consensus about addiction at all. Which is another, much more profound point that jibes with whatever else you wrote just fine. Or perhaps thats the joke and I'm the guy who makes it D&D friendly by removing all possible misinterpretable subtext? Hey! Speaking of that; Spangly A posted:Hello I was diagnosed with autism late (age 4) and now no longer am "flagged" when retested for curiositys sake. The early schizophrenic symptoms play into that but hey, even autism has fluidity with other mental disorders. So the autistic brain is not "wired differently" its just a thing where as long as you approach what's normally subtextual learning as a deliberative act and don't spill the wrong chemicals on it after its fixed, it works just like a normal one as long as you have the right shade of problem where we don't actually know what it is. OKay. Okay. Willie Tomg fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Jun 28, 2014 |
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Jun 28, 2014 23:21
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rkajdi posted:Phineas Gage was the same person before and after the accident. He acted differently, but he was still a continuation of the same individual. People tend to act differently after traumatic experience (or really any kind of experience), regardless of brain damage. Does that make them different people? If so, you're literally a different person every second of every day. How do you determine which time period is the "real" you worth protecting? Seriously, the idea is incredibly disordered. No, Gage was not acting different because of his experience, he was action different because the changes to his neuroanatomy made him a different person. This is something that has been extensively studied. We can give someone localized anesthesia to part of their brain, cause a whole new personality to emerge, and watch it be subsumed as the anesthesia wears off. quote:It gives them some insight into the internal condition, but nothing that's really useful in fixing it. If there was special insight given into these conditions foudn by having them, they would have been solved long ago. Psychology is so weird in D&D, because it's where the anti-science crankery comes out and gets support. You can be anti-psych here and get lots of praise you'd never get for being anti-vaxx or a climate change denialist. 
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Jun 28, 2014 23:24
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Fried Chicken posted:No, Gage was not acting different because of his experience, he was action different because the changes to his neuroanatomy made him a different person. This is something that has been extensively studied. We can give someone localized anesthesia to part of their brain, cause a whole new personality to emerge, and watch it be subsumed as the anesthesia wears off. Science says that changes to his neuroanatomy made him behave differently. Science can't say poo poo about whether or not the rail made him a "different person" because something like that isn't empirically verifiable (what the hell does it mean to be a "different person"?). You are missing the point because you have a naive essentialist worldview.
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Jun 28, 2014 23:30
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Willie Tomg posted:Its not universal consensus about addiction at all. Which is another, much more profound point that jibes with whatever else you wrote just fine. Or perhaps thats the joke and I'm the guy who makes it D&D friendly by removing all possible misinterpretable subtext? Hey! Speaking of that; The general stance in therapy and rehab is that thinking you are "cured" of your addiction is the first strong sign of a relapse- rationalization of re-exposure to the substance- this is why the term for someone who has gone through rehab with apparent success is "recovering", not "recovered." The position that addiction is a chronic condition is the position of all major research organizations and reputable treatment groups. NIDA's working on a "cure" using a receptor co-binding vaccine theory, but it's still probably at least 10 years out from any meaningful non-bench work, plus there are questions about the efficacy of the mechanism, which may have other significant pschiatric effects- we'll know whether the entire enterprise is viable once they get into animal phase testing. None of this has much to do with autism, though. Willie Tomg posted:So the autistic brain is not "wired differently" its just a thing where as long as you approach what's normally subtextual learning as a deliberative act and don't spill the wrong chemicals on it after its fixed, it works just like a normal one. OKay. Okay. I think the issue is that the "wired differently" framing usually incorporates a fully relativist sense of the individual self that refuses the idea of a negative neurological condition- all mental states or conditions are normal, people are just "wired differently". The "just", which does a lot of the work in that framing, is always present, if sometimes implicit. Ogmius815 posted:Science says that changes to his neuroanatomy made him behave differently. Science can't say poo poo about whether or not the rail made him a "different person" because something like that isn't empirically verifiable (what the hell does it mean to be a "different person"?). You are missing the point because you have a naive essentialist worldview. The concept of essentialism is bandied about a lot, and it means many different things to different people, not all of them negative- it might clarify things if you could expand on exactly what worldview you're accusing him of. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Jun 28, 2014 |
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Jun 28, 2014 23:30
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rkajdi posted:I'm not agruing dualism at all-- exactly the opposite in fact. Your brain is an organ exactly the same as every other organ in your body. Is someone a different person because they have heart surgery? quote:Also, is someone a different person after having brain sugery to remove a tumor? quote:I hate dualism because at its heart it treats your mental condition as something special and inherently different from the rest of reality. My argument is this "authentic you"/different person idea is flawed from the start. It's an idea that gets hung out there when there is reality to base it on. So we're better off ignoring it, or conversely acting "you" is infinitely fungible for the same body.
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Jun 28, 2014 23:33
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SedanChair posted:Who should decide how each person gets to be? My argument is that identity, at least the way it's postulated for the mental question, is something that doesn't exist and we would be better to just ignoring it out of hand.
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Jun 28, 2014 23:35
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Fried Chicken posted:The brain is an organ yes, but making the leap from that to "well the exact neuroanatomy doesn't matter" is complete crap. How can I ascertain what constitutes a "fundamental aspect" of a person?
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Jun 28, 2014 23:36
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E-Tank posted:This is like having a 'Woman Speaks' group where the board of directors are all men. Or a 'homosexuality speaks' where its all straight people, talking about how much of a burden homosexuality is and gosh darnit won't it be nice once we have a cure? This is one of the things that really chaps me. They can't have any autists on the panel? LeJackal fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Jun 28, 2014 |
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Jun 28, 2014 23:43
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Discendo Vox posted:The concept of essentialism is bandied about a lot, and it means many different things to different people, not all of them negative- it might clarify things if you could expand on exactly what worldview you're accusing him of. He's freaking out because curing people of autism would make them "different people". But that kind of concrete personal identity is an illusion. There is no "true, essential you" to compare your present state with. He also implied that science could decide when someone had become "a different person" which is false. It's definitely true that curing someone of autism would make them behave differently (that's the point), but lots of interventions could make someone behave differently. Should we freak out about talk therapy because the behavioral interventions it works on might make someone a "different person"?
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Jun 28, 2014 23:43
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Ogmius815 posted:Science says that changes to his neuroanatomy made him behave differently. Science can't say poo poo about whether or not the rail made him a "different person" because something like that isn't empirically verifiable (what the hell does it mean to be a "different person"?). You are missing the point because you have a naive essentialist worldview. Trying to say that there is some aspect of you that isn't a materialist, biological phenomena, that results from the behavior of physical processes is complete crap.
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Jun 28, 2014 23:45
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Fried Chicken posted:Trying to say that there is some aspect of you that isn't a materialist, biological phenomena, that results from the behavior of physical processes is complete crap. Right that's exactly what I'm saying. But by this standard you become "a different person" constantly. I'm a different person than I was last year. I'm a different person than I was this morning. Every aspect of your "person" is transient. None of them can constitute an essential thing that makes you "the person you are".
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Jun 28, 2014 23:46
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Ogmius815 posted:He's freaking out because curing people of autism would make them "different people". But that kind of concrete personal identity is an illusion. There is no "true, essential you" to compare your present state with. He also implied that science could decide when someone had become "a different person" which is false. There is the issue of consent here, talk therapy is a lot different than forcibly medicating someone or doing some brain surgery without getting their input.
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Jun 28, 2014 23:47
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LeJackal posted:This is one of the things that really chaps me. They can't have any autists on the panel? What's interesting is that when this is suggested, posters respond by imagining that a poo poo-flinging retarded person will be selected, and that if they are not then it doesn't matter. If you are "high-functioning," I guess you are just supposed to be quiet and let others continue to advocate that your ilk be removed from the earth.
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Jun 28, 2014 23:48
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LeJackal posted:There is the issue of consent here, talk therapy is a lot different than forcibly medicating someone or doing some brain surgery without getting their input. I'm definitely not trying to advocate that people who don't want to be cured should be forced to undergo treatment, only that pursuing a cure is worthwhile. I'd also say it's fine for parents to make children undergo treatment just like it's alright for them to make other medical decisions on their children's behalf.
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Jun 28, 2014 23:49
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ITT, we read Flowers for Algernon and come to the conclusion taking the pill destroyed Charlie Gordon as an individual.
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Jun 28, 2014 23:50
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LeJackal posted:This is one of the things that really chaps me. They can't have any autists on the panel? Of course not, that would be pretending autists are people instead of a burden placed upon their caretakers. E-Tank fucked around with this message at 23:56 on Jun 28, 2014 |
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Jun 28, 2014 23:54
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SedanChair posted:What's interesting is that when this is suggested, posters respond by imagining that a poo poo-flinging retarded person will be selected, and that if they are not then it doesn't matter. If you are "high-functioning," I guess you are just supposed to be quiet and let others continue to advocate that your ilk be removed from the earth. Its almost as if people just care about comfort, convenience and conformity more than the welfare of anyone else.
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Jun 28, 2014 23:54
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Ogmius815 posted:How can I ascertain what constitutes a "fundamental aspect" of a person? Any of the aspects the person defines as part of their core identity. Ogmius815 posted:He's freaking out because curing people of autism would make them "different people". quote:But that kind of concrete personal identity is an illusion. There is no "true, essential you" to compare your present state with. quote:He also implied that science could decide when someone had become "a different person" which is false. quote:It's definitely true that curing someone of autism would make them behave differently (that's the point), but lots of interventions could make someone behave differently. Should we freak out about talk therapy because the behavioral interventions it works on might make someone a "different person"?
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Jun 28, 2014 23:55
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Fried Chicken posted:Except you are arguing that the mental condition is something special and inherently different, you are arguing that altering the brain will not alter the end state of the brain in action. And that's complete crap. We know for a confirmed, repeated, scientific fact that making alterations to a persons neurology can alter the person, including fundamental aspects of them. No, I'm arguing that your mental facilities are not the essential part of your identity. My argument that "identity" is like "meaning" (as in, what's the meaning of this life?). It's not something real, so there's nothing to hang the idea on, and it rapidly falls apart if you start poking at it. For instance, you said that Gage was a different person after his accident, but some people who had brain surgery were the same person (some were not, however) Can you draw a red line around what is essential for a person's identity? Is this extensible across all people and also objective? Otherwise, it seems like the whole things is the a little vs. a lot argument. Which tells me that the definitions weren't well defined or real to being with.
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Jun 28, 2014 23:59
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LeJackal posted:There is the issue of consent here, talk therapy is a lot different than forcibly medicating someone or doing some brain surgery without getting their input. No one's saying that. But I believe some people are saying that we shouldn't even search for a cure because it would akin to murdering anyone who did elect to take it. Ogmius815 posted:I'm definitely not trying to advocate that people who don't want to be cured should be forced to undergo treatment, only that pursuing a cure is worthwhile. I'd also say it's fine for parents to make children undergo treatment just like it's alright for them to make other medical decisions on their children's behalf. I'm not so sure I would be fine with an adult making this decision for their child after a certain age. It would be one thing to allow parents to administer a cure to their child before the child reaches it's formative age, but another to give it to an autistic child of, say, 11.
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Jun 29, 2014 00:00
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no one is saying that. In the last thread I did ask a poster to clarify their position because it read a bit like advocating genocide; as in abortions being socially or medically considered a cure for autism and genetic disorders. The poster clarified that that was not their position, that they were simply stating a position about reproductive rights and hoped for a cure.
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Jun 29, 2014 00:06
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For what it's worth I actually am a high-functioning autistic person and if there was a cure for autism created, I would absolutely embrace it. Autism is absolutely a disorder and has inarguably negatively affected my quality of life, and if you're not autistic yourself and you're going to spout some indigo-child bullshit about how I'm "just wired differently" I'd strongly prefer that you go gently caress yourself. e: also the "b-b-b-but it would make them DIFFERENT PEOPLE!!" thing is ridiculous. I'm on Wellbutrin because I also have major depression and PTSD on top of being autistic. When I take my meds, I am still the same person, I'm just capable of doing things other than laying in bed 24/7 and contemplating suicide. I really don't see how a cure for autism would be any different. SALT CURES HAM fucked around with this message at 00:11 on Jun 29, 2014 |
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Jun 29, 2014 00:09
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rkajdi posted:No, I'm arguing that your mental facilities are not the essential part of your identity. My argument that "identity" is like "meaning" (as in, what's the meaning of this life?). It's not something real, so there's nothing to hang the idea on, and it rapidly falls apart if you start poking at it. In the case of Gage, the portion of his brain that controls his inhibitions was destroyed. He lost any and all inhibition, and had issues controlling himself after. Where he was once a quiet reserved man, he became flippant, angry at the drop of a hat. Literally his personality changed permanently, because part of his brain was cut out. It ruined his job, and he ended up lonely and without his friends because it had changed him so much. He was no longer the same man he once was. If you are sitting here saying that your personality cannot be changed by altering how the brain functions, you're loving dead wrong. Traumatic enough brain injuries can result in someone acting like an entirely different person. The trauma to the brain in any sort of 'cure' for autism, would be phenomenal. You'd be rebuilding the brain from the ground up. I'm not going to sit here and say I know it all, and that I know the perfect thing to do. No, I don't believe we should stop trying to research autism and understand it. I don't believe we shouldn't find a way to make things better for people who are autistic. But I do believe that it has to be their choice. Not the choice of a bunch of hypocrites who try and use autistic people as a way to say 'Oh look how pitiful we are because of our autistic burden'. It also has to be their choice in the regards that their parents can't make it for them. Its a real big step. It's something that could change their lives forever. It could end up distorting them and making them entirely different people. So I don't think even parents have the right to tell their child to do something that could end up hurting them. They should be given the choice when they have become aware enough to hopefully understand the implications. SALT CURES HAM posted:For what it's worth I actually am a high-functioning autistic person and if there was a cure for autism created, I would absolutely embrace it. Autism is absolutely a disorder and has inarguably negatively affected my quality of life, and if you're not autistic yourself and you're going to spout some indigo-child bullshit about how I'm "just wired differently" I'd strongly prefer that you go gently caress yourself. And what if I'm being told by another autistic person that this is what she believes?
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Jun 29, 2014 00:09
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rkajdi posted:Phineas Gage was the same person before and after the accident. He acted differently, but he was still a continuation of the same individual. People tend to act differently after traumatic experience (or really any kind of experience), regardless of brain damage. Does that make them different people? If so, you're literally a different person every second of every day. How do you determine which time period is the "real" you worth protecting? Seriously, the idea is incredibly disordered. He really wasn't the same person. Identity is just your brain constructing a narrative between memories, all cells and chemical reactions everchanging. It's possible to forget who you are just by drinking too much alcohol, let alone serious brain trauma. When the neurons that were busy doing "Phineas Gage" all get crushed or re-purposed for other poo poo, the only Phineas Gage that exists is in the expectations of his fellow workers (whose brains have also built an identity for him based on their memories of his behavior). Rewiring the brains of autistic people would fundamentally change who they are as people, and even they themselves can't effectively make that decision, having no idea what it's like to be anything but what they are. It's not like having a neurotypical brain is so loving wonderful all the time either.
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Jun 29, 2014 00:09
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Fried Chicken posted:Any of the aspects the person defines as part of their core identity. You're confused. Science can decide when changes in someone's physical body have resulted in them behaving differently. How does science decide when these changes constitute a change into "a different person"? edit: I also have an advanced degree in philosophy from a major university. It isn't a PhD, but I'm certainly not "Google educated". Ogmius815 fucked around with this message at 00:15 on Jun 29, 2014 |
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Jun 29, 2014 00:11
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