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Willie Tomg posted:So the autistic brain is not "wired differently" its just a thing where as long as you approach what's normally subtextual learning as a deliberative act and don't spill the wrong chemicals on it after its fixed, it works just like a normal one as long as you have the right shade of problem where we don't actually know what it is. OKay. Okay. It's wired differently like people with MS are wired differently. Telling me I'm "differently normal" and implying I should be happy with that is loving patronising. Hilariously I can deal with talking about heroin without immediately needing to get trashed but this is surprisingly difficult so I'ma peace out.
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Jun 29, 2014 00:12
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E-Tank posted:And what if I'm being told by another autistic person that this is what she believes? SALT CURES HAM posted:For what it's worth I actually am a high-functioning autistic person and if there was a cure for autism created, I would absolutely embrace it. Autism is absolutely a disorder and has inarguably negatively affected my quality of life, and if you're not autistic yourself and you're going to spout some indigo-child bullshit about how I'm "just wired differently" I'd strongly prefer that you go gently caress yourself. Reading comprehension is apparently very hard!
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Jun 29, 2014 00:12
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splifyphus posted:Rewiring the brains of autistic people would fundamentally change who they are as people, and even they themselves can't effectively make that decision, having no idea what it's like to be anything but what they are. It's not like having a neurotypical brain is so loving wonderful all the time either. Wait, are you actually saying that autistic individuals are completely unable to decide for themselves whether or not they wish to seek treatment for their autism?
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Jun 29, 2014 00:12
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SALT CURES HAM posted:Reading comprehension is apparently very hard! And so is understanding that I'm putting in another person's opinion. Whatever, fine, go gently caress myself.
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Jun 29, 2014 00:13
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E-Tank posted:And so is understanding that I'm putting in another person's opinion. Whatever, fine, go gently caress myself. I tend to automatically assume that all "other people's opinions" in situations like this are stdh.txt along the lines of "b-b-b-but my black friend said calling Obama an urban feral is okay so clearly I'm not racist!"
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Jun 29, 2014 00:16
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Who What Now posted:I'm not so sure I would be fine with an adult making this decision for their child after a certain age. It would be one thing to allow parents to administer a cure to their child before the child reaches it's formative age, but another to give it to an autistic child of, say, 11. I don't know. I would definitely be nervous about a parent choosing to make their 17 year old undergo treatment over his or her objections, so I get what you are saying, but I'd be fine with making an eleven year old get treated. I'm not sure where that line should be.
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Jun 29, 2014 00:18
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Who What Now posted:Wait, are you actually saying that autistic individuals are completely unable to decide for themselves whether or not they wish to seek treatment for their autism? No you don't understand; we have to protect them. Being cured of autism is equivalent to dying because you become "a different person", you see.
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Jun 29, 2014 00:21
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I don't think anyone ITT is categorically opposed to the research and development of a treatment or "cure" for autism, although what that treatment would resemble and its application remains an open question. I'm also not sure the question of who gets to make treatment decisions for autistic individuals is a particularly interesting question- the scenario doesn't seem to raise any issues different from the normal circumstances of individuals with reduced capacity and proxy care decision-making, an area that's pretty well defined legally, at least in the US. Ogmius815 posted:No you don't understand; we have to protect them. Being cured of autism is equivalent to dying because you become "a different person", you see. This. I don't think anyone ITT holds this position.
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Jun 29, 2014 00:26
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EDIT: Sorry I just realized this is D&D and I was making a GBS post. Okay I think that autistic brains are observably different than normal ones and therefore the definition of autism as a disease holds weight and the rest of this is a question of degree.
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Jun 29, 2014 00:26
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splifyphus posted:He really wasn't the same person. Identity is just your brain constructing a narrative between memories, all cells and chemical reactions everchanging. It's possible to forget who you are just by drinking too much alcohol, let alone serious brain trauma. When the neurons that were busy doing "Phineas Gage" all get crushed or re-purposed for other poo poo, the only Phineas Gage that exists is in the expectations of his fellow workers (whose brains have also built an identity for him based on their memories of his behavior). Again, draw me the red line to differentiate the things that are essential to a person's identity, or the actual brain structure, or well any objective and extensible criteria. I don't think you can. That tells me the idea isn't based in reality. My argument never was that brain structures and experiences (in that they alter the brain's structure) weren't the entirety of where our personality comes from. My argument is that your personality isn't the essential part of you, because nothing is the essential part of you.
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Jun 29, 2014 00:30
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Discendo Vox posted:This. I don't think anyone ITT holds this position. That was literally a thing someone either here or back in the vaxx thread said, curing is inherently 'killing' because they'd be a new person, it was a literal thing either Tank or one of his supporters said RE curing autism, at least one person ITT holds it, probably more.
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Jun 29, 2014 00:31
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Discendo Vox posted:I'm also not sure the question of who gets to make treatment decisions for autistic individuals is a particularly interesting question- the scenario doesn't seem to raise any issues different from the normal circumstances of individuals with reduced capacity and proxy care decision-making, an area that's pretty well defined legally, at least in the US. Does this include everyone on the autism spectrum, or just the ones who have the most sever symptoms?
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Jun 29, 2014 00:32
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Discendo Vox posted:I don't think anyone ITT is categorically opposed to the research and development of a treatment or "cure" for autism, although what that treatment would resemble and its application remains an open question. E-Tank certainly appears to be. Though I can't say for certain.
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Jun 29, 2014 00:32
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rkajdi posted:Again, draw me the red line to differentiate the things that are essential to a person's identity, or the actual brain structure, or well any objective and extensible criteria. I don't think you can. That tells me the idea isn't based in reality. My argument never was that brain structures and experiences (in that they alter the brain's structure) weren't the entirety of where our personality comes from. My argument is that your personality isn't the essential part of you, because nothing is the essential part of you. This is also my position.
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Jun 29, 2014 00:33
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splifyphus posted:Rewiring the brains of autistic people would fundamentally change who they are as people, and even they themselves can't effectively make that decision, having no idea what it's like to be anything but what they are. It's not like having a neurotypical brain is so loving wonderful all the time either. It's obvious that the only ethical way to handle this is to take a vote. Force the treatment on him to get the neurotypical vote, then turn him back to get the autistic vote. If they can't agree, ties are broken by Joe Biden. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 00:39 on Jun 29, 2014 |
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Jun 29, 2014 00:34
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Tatum Girlparts posted:That was literally a thing someone either here or back in the vaxx thread said, curing is inherently 'killing' because they'd be a new person, it was a literal thing either Tank or one of his supporters said RE curing autism, at least one person ITT holds it, probably more. OK, I see. My reading was that E-Tank was pointing out that this was a position that Autism Speaks holds, not that this was his own position. It'd be helpful to distinguish this (imo much harder to defend) position, and the people who hold it, from all the folks rehashing the dualism/essentialism/mind/body etc debates. We've all heard the four corners of free will before and it's not a set of arguments that are made significantly more interesting by presenting them flavored with autism. The only place they really intersect is at the extreme end of anti-essentialism that is categorically opposed to normal/abnormal distinctions- otherwise it's not a very fruitful line of argument.
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Jun 29, 2014 00:35
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SedanChair posted:If you are "high-functioning," I guess you are just supposed to be quiet and let others continue to advocate that your ilk be removed from the earth. I think it's pretty telling when the two biggest MUH RITES leftists we have here both team up to poo poo on a woman's right to choose. Again, guess you stopped reading the bill of rights somewhere between the 3rd and 8th ammendments, correct? Because telling a woman she doesn't have the right to an arbotion for whatever reason she wants means that you just poo poo on the 9th ammendment.
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Jun 29, 2014 00:36
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Y'all need Buddhism. Buddhism says that we have no essential unchanging self. There is nothing about you that is not subject to change. This is true regardless of whether materialism is true or not.
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Jun 29, 2014 00:38
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Blue Star posted:Y'all need Buddhism. I actually hold the beliefs I do about personal identity as a result of the influence of Buddhist philosophy.
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Jun 29, 2014 00:39
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SedanChair posted:What's interesting is that when this is suggested, posters respond by imagining that a poo poo-flinging retarded person will be selected, and that if they are not then it doesn't matter. If you are "high-functioning," I guess you are just supposed to be quiet and let others continue to advocate that your ilk be removed from the earth. So to be clear, a woman finds out she is going to have an autistic child, let's not add any extra poo poo like her being single or anything, just an average woman, she gets an abortion because she's not able to handle that in her life right now. How long do we jail her for this genocide? How exactly long does she and the doctor and let's say the nurse involved too go to jail for this murder, and why only this one and not the one they did before when it was just a woman who didn't want a kid.
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Jun 29, 2014 00:41
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Abortion isn't genocide, loving christ. I'm all for not allowing pregnancies that suffer complications to be terminated at the parent's discretion. My ex and I weren't planning on having a child that already had a debilitating disease for ethical and personal reasons, which are no one's business but ours. So, save the loving genocide bullshit. If someone tried rounding up autistic people, or mentally retarded people, or people with Down syndrome, I'd be the first to do something to stop them. It's not equivalent at all.Ogmius815 posted:I actually hold the beliefs I do about personal identity as a result of the influence of Buddhist philosophy. Me, too. That and seeing several extended family members suffer from various brain injuries (motorcycle accident, stroke, aneurysm) and turning into completely different people. The idea that there's some "you" deep down that isn't simply an abstraction is really pretty indefensible given the facts, as far as I can see. BUSH 2112 fucked around with this message at 00:45 on Jun 29, 2014 |
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Jun 29, 2014 00:42
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Actually, ignore this post.
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Jun 29, 2014 00:43
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Tatum Girlparts posted:That was literally a thing someone either here or back in the vaxx thread said, curing is inherently 'killing' because they'd be a new person, it was a literal thing either Tank or one of his supporters said RE curing autism, at least one person ITT holds it, probably more. It's right in the OP. quote:Some deaf people consider deafness part of their identity, such that being "cured" would make them a fundamentally different person. A "cure" for Autism, if it existed, wouldn't be a matter of debate that it made someone a fundamentally different person -- autism is based on fundamentally different neural wiring from allistic people. In a very real sense, a cure, if it existed, would by its very nature effectively kill the autistic person in favor of having someone entirely different inhabit the body. Note this is from E-Tank's (IMO ignorant) friend, not Autism Speaks. I think there's also this confusion with "wired" in brains. They have very powerful feedback mechanisms-- that's why learning works so well. Your experiences do to some extent change how your brain operates. For common examples, you don't need to look any further than PTSD that doesn't have an mTBI accompanying it. Your brain starts looking at things differently, and develops responses that are very detrimental to your regular life. One of the reasons CBT works is because of this feedback system.
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Jun 29, 2014 00:44
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Discendo Vox posted:OK, I see. My reading was that E-Tank was pointing out that this was a position that Autism Speaks holds, not that this was his own position. My position is here Autism Speak's position is that Autism sucks and autists are just huge burdens on everybody and gosh wouldn't it be awesome if we could just get rid of them all? I don't know what to say, I don't know what to believe. I've offered my friend's opinion, and I'm trying to form my own, based on her, and what has been said here. So far its all just a confusing loving mess. Some people scream that a cure wouldn't be bad. Some people scream that a proper 'cure', as in 'no traces of autism remain' would fundamentally change someone's brain and thus their very self, to the point of killing them. I don't know where to stand. I know that this needs debate and discussion, hence why it's here. rkajdi posted:Note this is from E-Tank's (IMO ignorant) friend, not Autism Speaks. My friend is autistic, very nice, very sweet, and honestly I trust her over you. Do you suffer from autism? Do you have the experiences she has had? If not then maybe you should not dismiss her so easily.
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Jun 29, 2014 00:44
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E-Tank same question, ideal world, woman gets an abortion because she can't handle an autistic kid in her life, how long do we jail her for this murder and why do we not jail the woman before her who just wasn't in a good place for a baby right now?
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Jun 29, 2014 00:45
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The subject of prenatal condition screening and abortion is actually pretty contentious in bioethics, by my understanding. There are concerns that it represents a sort of decentralized eugenic impulse- that said, it's not usually invoked in the context of autism, since afaik there aren't meaningful prenatal autism screening tests. The ethical imperative is generally asserted collectively, not individually, anyways. I don't know of any bioethicists advocating for jail terms for the practice who aren't also anti-abortion- although that's started to shift as other, less health-related abortion screening practices start to become more common, and the need for some form of societal response becomes stronger. The real stress is over sex selection.
Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 00:49 on Jun 29, 2014 |
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Jun 29, 2014 00:45
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Tatum Girlparts posted:E-Tank same question, ideal world, woman gets an abortion because she can't handle an autistic kid in her life, how long do we jail her for this murder and why do we not jail the woman before her who just wasn't in a good place for a baby right now? Because it's her body, it's her choice. I can't force someone to carry a baby to term if they don't want to. Just like I couldn't force them to carry a gay baby to term. Or a downs baby to term. Its her body, she's giving birth to it, so it's her choice. Not what you expected, is it?
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Jun 29, 2014 00:47
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E-Tank posted:Because it's her body, it's her choice. But aren't you against women being able to abort autistic babies? Weren't you one who called it genocide or some other hyperbole?
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Jun 29, 2014 00:48
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Tatum Girlparts posted:But aren't you against women being able to abort autistic babies? Weren't you one who called it genocide or some other hyperbole? No? I wasn't?
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Jun 29, 2014 00:49
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E-Tank posted:My friend is autistic, very nice, very sweet, and honestly I trust her over you. Do you suffer from autism? Do you have the experiences she has had? If not then maybe you should not dismiss her so easily. She can be sweet, but her position on the "different person" stuff is ill-informed. Note this has zero to do with her autism, because myself and many other people I've known have said the exact same thing about other mental treatments.
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Jun 29, 2014 00:49
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My bad I got lost in the hyperbole, you posted your friend saying that a cure was 'genocide', totally more reasonable. Why is a cure 'genocide' then, do you believe Autism Speaks wants MANDATORY curing, where Known Autistics are forced into doctors' offices to be cured?
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Jun 29, 2014 00:50
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E-Tank posted:My friend is autistic, very nice, very sweet, and honestly I trust her over you. Do you suffer from autism? Do you have the experiences she has had? If not then maybe you should not dismiss her so easily. I'm genuinely not convinced that your friend exists.
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Jun 29, 2014 00:52
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Blue Star posted:Y'all need Buddhism. Came up with the same thing from the same place, same as Ogmius. I didn't think that would be a common take-away from a religion with a central point of "Be the best you possible, and the best you is infinitely compassionate", but I guess it is.
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Jun 29, 2014 00:52
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E-Tank posted:No? I wasn't? That was LeJackal's and SedanChair's points, IIRC.
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Jun 29, 2014 00:53
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Tatum Girlparts posted:My bad I got lost in the hyperbole, you posted your friend saying that a cure was 'genocide', totally more reasonable. I don't know. I don't know because I at the beginning of this, thought I had a firm grasp on it, and now its much more unsure. I do know from the actions Autism Speaks has taken (namely, trying to paint Autism as an always huge burden that will totally destroy your marriage, kill your cat, and ruin your souffle. That the only reason a woman should not kill her autistic child is the real child, that is the only one that matters, that is locked up inside of that autistic shell.) that yes, they'd probably want it to be mandatory to 'relieve the burden on the caretakers' because that's really what Autism speaks is. It's about the caretakers, and not the autistic people themselves. And don't get me wrong, those caretakers? The ones that actually do care? They're awesome. They rock. They're taking care of someone who needs help, and that's fine. Whats wrong is when it becomes *all* about the caretakers. All I know is that this sparked a discussion, interesting points were raised, and I moved it to its own topic with information on Autism Speaks available for people to look at, and quoted my friend in what she has seen/experienced/feels. I am trying to figure out where I should stand on this, and if you want to continue to try and dress me up as a strawman, I'm going to just assume you don't know either and move on. SALT CURES HAM posted:I'm genuinely not convinced that your friend exists. Suit yourself, I don't care.
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Jun 29, 2014 00:54
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Discendo Vox posted:The subject of prenatal condition screening and abortion is actually pretty contentious in bioethics, by my understanding. There are concerns that it represents a sort of decentralized eugenic impulse- that said, it's not usually invoked in the context of autism, since afaik there aren't meaningful prenatal autism screening tests. The ethical imperative is generally asserted collectively, not individually, anyways. I don't know of any bioethicists advocating for jail terms for the practice who aren't also anti-abortion- although that's started to shift as other, less health-related abortion screening practices start to become more common, and the need for some form of societal response becomes stronger. The real stress is over sex selection. It's all childish hand-wringing unless we actively start saying that women shouldn't get either bodily integrity or informed consent on birth issues. Either say that these aren't real rights (good loving luck with that-- you're a textbook misogynist then) or allow for these things to happen. The stress over sex selection is yet again anti-choice zealots trying to pry their way into people's wombs.
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Jun 29, 2014 00:57
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E-Tank posted:I don't know. Cite one source. Cite one source that gives you reason to think that they want this to be mandatory other than paranoia. Also, you selfish fucker, those 'caretakers' are loving mothers and fathers and brothers and sisters. These aren't nurses that spend six hours with them, these are people who have spent their loving LIVES with these people suffering from an extreme end of the illness, who the gently caress are you to dismiss their desire for both them and their loved one to live a normal life? All this invoking autistic people, have you ever worked with the severely autistic? I don't mean hanging out with your friend I mean going through a three week period where you get punched and kicked because you're a different helper than they're used to and that just ruins all the hard work people have done getting them to be level, and feeling like poo poo because a grown man is bawling in horror because someone new didn't know you can't smile to him and talk to him and she made the horrible sin of saying 'hello' as she walked in and now you have to clean this up. This isn't ABOUT your friend, if your friend is living a normal life she's fine, she doesn't NEED a caretaker and god bless her for it, this is about the people that do, and maybe wanting them to live a life where they don't piss themselves every couple days. You're legitimately the worst person in this thread, I want to be clear. Sedan and Jackal and poo poo are arguing in the abstract but you're hiding behind 'well my autistic friend said...' like a coward while you insult a group of people who have legitimately gone through a very hard time who want people to understand that autism is an illness that hurts more than the person it's in. You are, in the spiritual sense, a terrible human being.
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Jun 29, 2014 01:00
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SALT CURES HAM posted:I'm genuinely not convinced that your friend exists. Why? I disagree with her position and find it not to fit with reality, but it's the kind of thing that's commonly held. I see it as a nature cancerous outgrowth of the whole free will/neo-fatalism idea, but that's such a bag of cats to deal with that it's better to not discuss-- even normally rational people become nuts when you confront them with the idea that they aren't sole awesome controllers of their will.
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Jun 29, 2014 01:01
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Who What Now posted:Does this include everyone on the autism spectrum, or just the ones who have the most sever symptoms? This was skipped over, so I'll chime in my thoughts. Probably everyone, most states in the US have a Mature Minor doctrine, a legal status where a minor is allowed to refuse treatment for medical procedures despite the will of their legal guardian. Anyone considered capable of understanding their situation and consequences both of treatment and nontreatment legally has the right to decide for themselves most places in the US. So it would apply to everyone, those who have the most severe symptoms would be less likely to be determined in court to be fully capable of understanding their current situation and consequences of both treatment and nontreatment.
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Jun 29, 2014 01:16
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God drat I'd hope my parents would be more keen to a cure to autism if I suffered from it than some people here. Autism doesn't make you special or 'having your brain wired differently' any more than being blind or having depression/bipolar does. The lives are different but they still have more problems than a 'normal' person would.Adar posted:ITT, we read Flowers for Algernon and come to the conclusion taking the pill destroyed Charlie Gordon as an individual.
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Jun 29, 2014 01:21
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