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Spoilers Below posted:I have wanted a fully functional overpowered (non-cleric) necromancer since one of my 2e D&D characters, and it was one of the few things that 4e could not deliver without refluffing. Take ranks in perform, become the necrodancer
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Aug 14, 2014 14:47
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ImpactVector posted:So to keep 5e from becoming the Necromancer Show, is there anything else that's similarly broken? Obviously you need a Transmuter for making bone piles, and they seem like they can hold their own to boot (of course they can, they're wizards), but that's still only two party members. What's the 4-5 player dream team? If I had to guess 3 wizards (necro, transmuter, enchantment) Warlock as fighting man, Maybe bard in last slot
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Aug 14, 2014 16:40
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dwarf74 posted:I think "can emerge, bite, and burrow again because of splitting movement" is probably overkill already. No need for you to ready when you can command your legion of skeletons to
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Aug 15, 2014 01:40
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I completely glossed over that version, I was looking at the one above it (the wisdom one) combine them both and you just spent 2 5th level spells to neuter the dragon completely Edit: do stunned creatures grant advantage?
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Aug 16, 2014 14:35
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ritorix posted:Yep, and can't take actions or move. So just cast this on the dragon, skeleton archer it then magic missile it each round for guaranteed damage, The dragon sees a small flying fairy and runs for none can escape the wizards reach?
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Aug 16, 2014 14:49
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Really Pants posted:The good Fighters were renamed A Horde of skeletons just like the good Rogues were renamed "Bards." I'll have you know. Also it's amusing that summoned monster wizards don't even need good primary stats to function
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Aug 17, 2014 13:44
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Jack can you translate this into the skeleton metric, its all I understand anymore
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Aug 18, 2014 15:33
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More fun undead facts, if you are bored at the end of a day, finger of death someone to gain a permanent (no need to waste any control them) zombie Other fun spell facts, if you get bored and want to relax while your skeletons kill thing, use warding glyphs to inscribe your spells into books that your skeletons or zombies carry, when opened In front of a dragon (you can be that specific) bam suddenly the dragon suffers the spell as if you cast it Double fun fact, the spell is stored permanently and it doesn't burn out the slots, You can use your remaining spell slots every night to store up spells at a rate of 2 spell slots (1 for the spell, 1 equal level for the glyph) so yep, just store them permanently for later at no real cost, spend your spare days creating a backup magical arsenal.
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Aug 18, 2014 16:47
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Bongo Bill posted:Does it say you have to inscribe them in a book? Can you, for instance, write the spell on a piece of paper and put it in an envelope addressed to your intended target, then send it in the mail? Roll it up and tie it to an arrow, which one of your skeletons shoots into their bedroom window? Fold it into a paper airplane? If you place it in an object it has to be something openable/closable, so a letter would work it can affect: The thing who opens it, thing who appraoches it or the thing who reads it (other options for putting it on a specific location) However you can filter by type, so "First dragon that gets near this box of wonder/letter of gently caress you" Edit: additional limitation spells has to have 1 target or target an area, will hit triggered person or centered on item So this makes giving out buff spells and storing them farcically easy Edit: Also as far as I can tell this spell bypasses the concentration rule. Stormgale fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Aug 18, 2014 |
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Aug 18, 2014 16:54
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slydingdoor posted:Nice "facts." You can still double dip on buff spells trivially easily? And again wing buffet is stupidly easy to avoid considering the dragon is stunned for 3 rounds and thus can't move, so the skeletons stay out of wing buffet range and shoot it? If you can pick fight arena it also seems to ignore concentration rules completely. Edit: Ill admit I didn't read the spell fully because I only noticed it while looking for other spells but still, it ignores concentration mechanics and can let you cast before resting, to get free buff spells at the start of the next day easily. Stormgale fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Aug 18, 2014 |
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Aug 18, 2014 17:02
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MonsterEnvy posted:I remember Find familiar 1st level wizard spell, familiar can deliver touch attacks for you, just have it run up and you touch attack through it dragon can do poo poo? (Considering it cant react to it moving closer, all it's powerful attack off turn happen at the end of your turn)
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Aug 18, 2014 23:27
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MonsterEnvy posted:I forgot about something all the stealth poo poo is pretty worthless. It has blindsense it knows if something comes within 60 ft of it. This makes all these plans even more unlikely You would have to move 60 ft up to the thing and hit it with the spell before it gets to act. If it acts the skeleton army vanishes. The familiar also has to beat 20 initiative or else the Dragon can blast it with a magma geyser or toxic cloud. Pretty sure I can make a familiar that moves more than 60ft in a round, even if you need to haste it
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Aug 18, 2014 23:38
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Ferrinus posted:Oh. So our plan for soloing the ancient is what, keeping some kind of fire resistance concentration spell up and just telling the skeletal longbowmen to let fly? Resistance isn't enough to avoid being one shot by fire breath, so you just gotta use numbers and stuns, or swarm him with infinite zombies (using touch of death every day to generate a large supply)
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Aug 19, 2014 00:41
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Sorry I meant for the skeleton brothers
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Aug 19, 2014 00:55
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Effectronica posted:Well, the solution isn't to come up with ways to shut it down. Like, if the fighter could three-round solo a dragon with the same level of ease as a necromancer doing it, and that level of power was consistently applied across the classes, the game would be fine, with better monsters. As it is, the basic solution is going, from this thread, to be to shut down any wizard/cleric/druid/bard options that aren't just grinding away HP like this is a bossfight in a mediocre JRPG. Even if the fighter could put out Raw DPR the lack of martial ability to be declarative like spells (e.g. X just happens) will always limit it really.
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Aug 19, 2014 02:08
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Effectronica posted:You get what I'm saying, though, right? The basic problem is that fighters are boring and the solution isn't to make all the classes on the same rough level of boring. The problem is D&D is a really and has always really been awful at this sort of mythic poo poo (The wizard that alters reality, the fighter that can sever a mountain or scare the wind away), for what D&D is good at bringing the wizard down into sane territory makes sense, as it is and will always be a dungeon crawling murder treasure simulator? Would I like a Game about playing mythical warrior men and women yes, is D&D ever going to be that game? (no)
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Aug 19, 2014 03:12
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Payndz posted:So how the gently caress are you supposed to kill this dragon, then? Pretty much, necromancy seems particularly good, able to stun it for 3 rounds straight (assuming it wastes is auto saves), you can bring massive DPR from skeletons (sure it can kill them but then it's not killing you) + After first round setup you can spam spells at it till it dies
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Aug 19, 2014 13:46
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Wait undead aren't immune to diseases?
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Aug 19, 2014 17:06
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A Catastrophe posted:4e does this just fine. I love 4e but 4e is pretty loving awful at playing mythic heroes that can talk to the earth or sever a mountain in one blow. It has some stuff like this but only after 20 levels of play, which are a slog to get through or really awkward to skip. So yes D&D is and always was really loving awful and following the myths and legends of heroes, I'd pretty much stand by that
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Aug 20, 2014 00:17
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MonsterEnvy posted:I still don't consider your problems an issue. It's easy to ignore them and if you say can't use a Pit Fiend because you have to look up spells I say play a different game if remembering Fireball does 8d6 damage in a 20 ft radius is too much of a task for you. The lich isn't immune to disease right? I couldn't see if it was or not?
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Aug 20, 2014 01:11
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A Catastrophe posted:So again what's your alternative. Ok why Do I have to provide something better? Lord knows D&D can't emulate anything I described above or when it does (4e) it does so in a clunky way (Again not saying D&D 4e is bad I like it but you have to either start at an incredibly high tier to play a mythical hero).
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Aug 20, 2014 02:39
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Effectronica posted:I'm not sure what you meant to say, but what you're saying is that only high-tier characters have truly mythical abilities. I mean, this isn't a big knock against 4e, compared to, say, the failures of the skill system, the increasing bloat at high levels, and the lack of any systematic advice for running the epic tier. What i'm saying is that generally if I want to run a game about mythic characters from legends I don't want the mythic cool stuff to happen 2/3rds of the way through and from my experience everything like that is locked behind epic destinies. Heck 4e is better at it than most editions, it just still sucks for it but this isn't the 4e thread.
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Aug 20, 2014 03:09
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Ferrinus posted:You could just start a 4e game at 21st level. Or, alternatively, you could play Exalted Yes because that sounds like a fun time for everyone (it isn't at least in my experience)
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Aug 20, 2014 03:13
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Jack the Lad posted:Oh wow yeah I didn't even think of that. 24 Pixies have a 72% chance to generate 3 successful Polymorphs against an Adult Red Dragon, which is enough to blow through its legendary saves. You then begin casting your own save-or-lose spells at DC19 and follow up with the barrage of Confusions. What is the Odds when you apply the disease (from the same spell we use to stunlock) that applies disadvantage to wisdom saves
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Aug 20, 2014 14:56
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A Catastrophe posted:Firstly, it's easy to talk about not-what you want, harder and more useful to talk about what you do want. High level is the only point D&D breaks from close up tactical combat, its the only time anything approaching stealing concepts or running up starlight comes into play simply as things people can do because they are that good, playing a character who steals the will to fight from their enemies or can walk to any place in the land in a days pace. From a combat perspective sure you can run low level reskinned and make Lu Bu, Guan Yu, have powerful combatants fighting but the skill system and every mechanic is based around mundane solutions, about doing simple things and interacting in that space rather than doing grand gestures.
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Aug 20, 2014 15:22
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A Catastrophe posted:The former is purely a matter of framing, the latter is almost entirely in the epic destinies. I'm just gonna frame this and say this is the exact same logic we are mocking in the people defending 5e, here's a spoiler: D&D 4e is still a good game but bad at by default simulating the sort of heroes of myth and legend. As for some 5e related stuff, is this even legal yet without an OGL for 5e: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/necromancergames/necromancer-games-back-for-5th-edition?ref=category
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Aug 20, 2014 15:42
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Ferrinus posted:It's not, though. High-level 4e guys are legitimately legendarily powerful. There's a lot of bookkeeping involved, but "slow" isn't the same thing as "ineffectual". Yeah but if I want to play legendary heroes I don't want that at level 21 2/3rds through the game, just as I wouldn't want that power limited to wizards in 5e.
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Aug 20, 2014 15:50
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Ferrinus posted:...which is why, if you don't want to bother with house rules or anything, you start the game at level 21. Like I already said. Why should I buy a system where I'm ignoring 2/3rds of it's content? ((less because of the way powers work but still)) Seriously I've had to build level 21 characters, it's a slog, it's boring and I mostly had to make characters for other people because they didn't want to deal with it
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Aug 20, 2014 15:56
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Ferrinus posted:Other than 4e, fantasy combat games that let you be Beowulf are kind of thin on the ground. You could wait for the new edition of Exalted, as I mentioned, or, I dunno, crack open 3.5's Tome of Battle...? I'm not even explicitly looking for combat, just something that evokes the power and freedom to part the seas, steal the wind, that sort of grand gesture that yes exalted piques (even if the system itself is mired and 3e has problems looming), I'm just saying that D&D is pretty bad at this sort of stuff in general from beginning to the latest edition unless you want to focus on Guan Yu or Lu Bu, purely in the martial combat sense. The resolution system, the way the players interact with the world just feels really bad for evoking that sort of play in D&D, which is all I was really trying to say.
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Aug 20, 2014 16:04
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ocrumsprug posted:Not really sure that any version of DnD has really been that game though. Now, falling off your horse at level 1 and dying? THAT'S DnD (not 5E). This was literally what I said before people kept saying "But 4e epic destinies", it was in response to someone wanting to power up the fighter to mythic levels to match the 5e wizard instead of bringing everything down, I said it was kind of not what D&D did ever.
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Aug 20, 2014 16:14
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Jimbozig posted:What the gently caress. I go away for three days without internet and I miss Mike Mearls eating string cheese? I understand being a grognard and wanting to play the games you played when you were 12. I sometimes think it'd be fun to go back and play goldeneye on my n64 while my buddies called each other awful names. But why would you want to eat the same terrible food you ate when you were 12? String cheese is an affront to cheese and an affront to decency. Real cheese, even a simple and inexpensive sharp cheddar, is one of the most delicious types of food you can buy. Why eat tasteless plasticky crap that costs more? Did this revelation leave you cheesed off?
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Aug 20, 2014 16:54
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A Catastrophe posted:I'm not saying that 4e does a particularly good job in this role, i'm saying that it doesn't do a particularly poor job, compared to other systems. It was more the "Just ignore/change the rules" posts really.
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Aug 21, 2014 00:03
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VacuumJockey posted:Out of curiosity, is there anyone here who plays the new D&D and honestly and unironically enjoys it? Full disclosure: I do. We mostly don't talk about this because: A) Just saying we enjoyed it isn't interesting unless you say why and B) Fun is a terrible metric, like I can have fun with cortex system firefly or any number of terrible RPG systems, you kinda have to examine the system itself Stormgale fucked around with this message at 16:18 on Aug 23, 2014 |
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Aug 23, 2014 16:13
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VacuumJockey posted:A) OK, that makes sense. I'll need some more playing experience with 5E to contribute meaningfully though. For me, "playing experience" means around 20-25 sessions, so it could take a while. For B) You basically have to work around what kind of game it is trying to be, so yes you have to be subjective so in this case generally: IS D&D a good game at being fantasy heroes going into a dungeon.
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Aug 23, 2014 21:44
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Serdain posted:"okay you guys have to get to New Land City, its 100km North over even terrain." Truly the sort of question heroes should be asking, how can I worry about having to move diagonals right up there with "How many arrows do I have".
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Aug 28, 2014 06:29
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Only weakness of the paladin bonus is it's melee weapons only, meaning it removes the ease of use of the archer block
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Nov 1, 2014 10:24
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Don't forget with bounded accuracy that high offensive slow defence monster is even more deadly especially at higher levels when you can swarm with them.
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Nov 29, 2014 10:36
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Doodmons posted:Can someone recap the wizard skeleton thing where every other class was being measured in terms of how many spell slots worth of skeletons they are? I missed all that and wasn't able to find it. Additionally, can someone recap the thing about dual hand crossbow/hand crossbow and tower shield SWAT teaming? That sounded hilarious and apparently it's super effective but I'm not seeing how it works with a cursory read of the PHB. So you want to ask about THE SKELETON SQUAD If you go find Jack the lad or my forum posts we (mostly him) did most of the math on it. Because Animate dead is really easy to use long term because it is more powerful (e.g. more skeletons controlled per cast) when you are recasting it to "Reassert control" (which you have to do every 24 hours) you can replace the fighter with about 4 spell slots (its about 20ish skeletons IIRC) who are 100% loyal 100% under your control and are just an archer block of death. With that many skeletons you can in fact send any enemy to the bone zone.
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Jan 2, 2015 19:23
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First Bass posted:Time to make my character "the Necrodancer". With the antipaladin Rules in the DMG you can make a charisma focused necromancer type who buffs his skeletons even more, take some ranks in perform and you can become the necrodancer
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Jan 2, 2015 23:02
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LongDarkNight posted:My buddy is writing a level 1-20 campaign for Next. Is necromancer Wizard still the go to option? They are pretty funny but any flavor of wizard is good, a focus on enchantment (if you arent fighting thingsi immune), Transmutation or necromancy are the Best picks In my honest opinion (what with my PHD in Skeleton Squad Tactics)
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Feb 2, 2015 00:26
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