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Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE
No one gets to choose any path class features until level 2 or 3. Primary casters still get to choose spells right away, though.

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Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE
And suddenly there's a campaign in favor natural, non-magical foods, trying to convince people that druid food is harmful and cleric food is wrong. Something about the magic affecting your body and the old ways being healthier. Only eat food enchanted by spells you can pronounce!

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE
As an Indian with a passing memory of Indian myth, I have to point out that the Divine Arrows, like much magic in myth, were rare, mystical, and powerful gifts given for piety, dedication, or goodness. At their most cavalier, they are the equivalent of the silver bullet you only use to destroy powerful monsters.

So naturally, in D&D, a wizard can just crap one out.

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE
Also like in most myth, you didn't just go around with a wizard. You met wizards, or more often magical creatures, and sometimes they helped you or gave you magical things.

Burn wizards, basically.

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE

Strength of Many posted:

How about a monster that, when [status effected], gets buffed tremendously for the following number of rounds equal to the spell level. Oh, and the spell effect immediately wears off at the beginning of its next turn.

Sure, you can paralyze the Anti-Mage Deathkiller Monstrosity XV2000, but you better hope the damage dealers can put it in the dirt before its next turn comes around.

"...the creature gains the benefit of righteous might and--"

"I counterspell."

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE
The reason 4th Edition "doesn't have roleplaying" is because there aren't a million spells like charm person and silent image and stone shape that unilaterally let you do freeform things to reality.

I mean, some of them are, but they're rituals, which means you can't just do them whenever you want with a wave of your hand. (Also, a fighter can do it, but I believe that's neither here nor there.)

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE

P.d0t posted:

I've just recently been reminded how boring 5e weapons are.

Discuss.

Sounds like that hasn't changed from 3.x either.

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE

Pfox posted:

It's been a long time since I owned 3.5e books, but is this really a criticism that can only be leveled at 4th? What proportion of the prior edition's DMGs were devoted to non-combat roleplay in comparison to 4th?

From personal and embarassing experience, when people say 3.x has roleplay or noncombat mechanics, they mean either "it makes sense that NPC peasant shitfarmers are all level 2 Commoners who actively optimize their Profession (shitfarmer) checks to earn 10 gp/week" or "I cast silent image."

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE
Cure spells were an awful way of healing.

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE
3.5/Pathfinder AC nominally (but not really) works if you buy every single AC bonus in the game, so it could be worse.

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE
Am I reading this wrong or does the Immortal get the ability to give up any focus benefits for the rest of the day just to halve the damage from one attack?

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE
Oh, "long rest" is right on the line break.

The single thing that makes me maddest about 5e is that they write "you regain your uses of this ability after completing a (short or) long rest" every single time instead of just writing "3/day."

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE
By the way, does anyone have a link to whatever post where Mearls explained the change to rest length? I want to be able to cite it. I'll search it up sometime if not, but if someone's got it saved, that'd be awesome.

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE

ProfessorCirno posted:

It's actually more petty then that - it was in response to "fighters don't appreciate their powers enough."

Do you have a link to the actual update where he posted that or has it been erased from Wizard's archives?

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE

Hitlers Gay Secret posted:

:agreed:

That's all the Magus ever does in one of the campaigns I'm in. He pretty much one shots everyone.

Same with our Magus in my earlier PF game. Loaded up all the low slots with a bunch of metamagicked Shocking Grasps through a keen scimitar, with a few chill touches and the like on the side just in case. She used to pretty much one-shot one big enemy per round before we all switched to 4e (I'm not saying it was entirely the magus' fault, but it was one factor).

Actually, I want to say it was a keen spell-storing scimitar for a double shocking grasp once per encounter.

Shocking grasp. Forever. You will never escape.

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE
Pretty sure they think near/far/who's engaged is the entirety of how you're allowed to lay out combat, like it's old Final Fantasy front/back lines.

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE

Kai Tave posted:

To be honest this wouldn't be the worst sort of setup to frame an RPG combat system around, something akin to Darkest Dungeon.

My old group has certainly done that when we didn't need any more, and we've also done the normal thing of moving freeform around a drawn arena and estimating distances. I think we've also experimented a bit with a scifi game where engagement was abstracted to "in cover/out of cover" and almost hacked together some sort of advancing-through-cover minigame. (Don't ask me the rules; what little we ad-hocked, we didn't write down.)

I just like the way the quote sounds like if you don't have a grid, space just doesn't exist.

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE

A 50S RAYGUN posted:

you are never going to make a fighter as generally useful as a spellcaster due to the natures of the classes, and most attempts to do so just feel like you're giving the fighter reskinned magic. my fighter is not at good at stuff as the person who can shape the realities of the universe. that's 'okay'.

you're not going to make a fighter feel on par with a wizard because of the inherent narrative limitations of the game. what am i going to do with a sword that is as good as wish? how many attacks do you think is enough in a round to make it feel like i'm on par with a spellcaster? if you think the issues with spellcasters vs non-spellcasters are just 'this class does more damage' then you're missing out on the serious dearth of utility a fighter is always going to believably have in comparison to a spellcaster.

Why can spellcasters shape the realities of the universe? Why do they get wish?

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE
Does that mean a warlock 10/paladin 1 learns all paladin spells or do you have to get 5th level paladin slots?

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE
Is the fact that you lose ASIs when multiclassing unless multiclassing in multiples of four levels intended to be some kind of balancing mechanism?

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE

Splicer posted:

Yes. Commence laughing.

This feels like an actual issue to me - like multiclassing is just broken, or that they've deliberately kneecapped it because someone only put it in at all to appease 3.x grogs. Is scaling hit/save up to 20 less important than I thought it is?

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE

Elfgames posted:

i know it's an actual concern for game design but i love how terrified they are of any design elements interacting with each other.

Then why the gently caress did they include by-level multiclassing?

No, don't tell me, I know this - because it was in 3e.

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE
Multiclassing is really broken RAW, too. There's that four-level thing because ASIs are considered class features and there are specific exceptions for cross-classing proficiency and casting, but not ASIs. There's also the multiclassing stat requirements, which are kind of hosed, i.e. you need 13 str to multiclass with fighter, barbarian, or paladin, even though you can be a finesse build with two of those. Guess dex fighters can't multiclass!

It's really obviously a jammed-in system but it's probably loving up ongoing class design because they're terrified of dips.

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE
Why are Investigation and Perception different?

Investigation posted:

Investigation. W hen you look around for clues and
make deductions based on those clues, you make an
Intelligence (Investigation) check. You might deduce the
location of a hidden object
, discern from the appearance
o f a wound what kind of weapon dealt it, or determine
the w eakest point in a tunnel that could cause it to
collapse.

Perception posted:

When your character searches for a hidden object such as
a secret door or a trap, the DM typically asks you to make a
Wisdom (Perception) check.
Such a check can be used to find
hidden details or other information and clues that you might
otherwise overlook.
In most cases, you need to describe where you are looking
in order for the DM to determine your chance of success. For
example, a key is hidden beneath a set of folded clothes in
the top drawer of a bureau. If you tell the DM that you pace
around the room, looking at the walls and furniture for clues,
you have no chance of finding the key, regardless of your
Wisdom (Perception) check result. You would have to specify
that you were opening the drawers or searching the bureau in
order to have any chance of success.

Caphi fucked around with this message at 19:24 on May 3, 2016

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE
I would be interested in reading this 5-page natural language essay, if you're able and willing to share (like it's not too personal or anything).

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE

Tarandis posted:

The minmaxer in me has trouble roleplaying (or generally being a goofball) when I know its just gonna bite me in the rear end later on, mechanically speaking. My DM isn't innocent here but I feel like there's a pretty obvious mismatch here between what the rules punish or limit and what they encourage or enable. I put way more blame on the latter.

I feel you completely, friend. I am the kind of person who loves doing cool or weird bullshit, but I want to know that it's not just a stupid idea beforehand, and if it is, I won't do it and then feel very sad that I "couldn't" do it.

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE
A small thought about 5e and 3e:

In 3e, you can count your levels together to get extra attacks (partial based on class), but your spells never combine.

In 5e, your extra attacks never stack no matter what your classes are, but you can combine classes for spell slots.

Thanks for reading.

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE
I'm considering a paladin for a potential game and reading up on various things. Am I missing something about the paladin's steed never scaling up its HP?

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE

AlphaDog posted:

From the Find Steed spell? It's got the stats of whatever you summoned as your steed plus the details in the spell description about intelligence and stuff. It doesn't say anything about scaling.

Ask your DM if the "such as" in "...the steed takes on a form that you choose such as..." can include cooler stuff than "a horse, pony, camel, elk or mastiff" as you level up?

No, I meant "since it has static animal hit dice, is there any reason that if I ride it into combat like the spell says I can, it won't become a liability that gets cut out from under me immediately."

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE
Yeah, that all sounds cool and the potential GM here is a cool guy, I just wanted to triple-check that there wasn't something in the book I was missing, because it looked to me like, yeah, it would get knocked out immediately by a fireball or one attack (free prone on the paladin!) and just drain time, actions, advantage, and spell slots.

Unrelatedly, I know rangers are already well-known to be generally unfortunate, but it seems insulting that they have to know their spells while paladins get to just prepare theirs.

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE
That sounds entirely too much like Drowning and Falling.

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE
Hang on a second. If you're a multiclass cleric 5/X caster 4, you have the slots of a caster 9th. I get that. And you only get 2+wis cleric spells. I get that. But you can only prepare cleric spells up to 3rd?

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE
To be fair, he's right that no one wants to call for a save every time they hit with an attack.

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE
I don't think any 5e GM would actually take that ruling.

The problem is that some people will point to that fact and say the system is dumb, and others will point to it and say the system is fine.

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE
I want to play a bard because I kind of like its support mechanics. :(

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE
Would it actually be dangerous in any way to get ASIs every four character levels? I'm not planning on running that way or asking a GM to in particular, but it's come up in conversation.

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE
I assume warlock is for pain lasers, what's cleric for?

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE
Is armor really important? If you're capping dex you end up with only 1 less AC than heavy, and if you want to melee warlock also gets you the SCAG spells since you're not getting a second attack anyway.

Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE
Hang on, you can roll a Lawful Good Criminal.

I'm not saying the table should have an exception to handle that corner case, I'm saying what's the point of any of this to begin with?

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Caphi
Jan 6, 2012

INCREDIBLE
I have it in my head to do a lore bard that steals the Sword Coast cantrips somehow (multiclassing seems easiest, despite the loss of class levels). My extremely dirty math says that they're slightly more than cantrip-equivalent at baseline and a little short of competitive with a mediocre attacking character if they get everything (the Booming Blade target moves, Greenflame hits twice). How foolhardy am I being?

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