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Cercadelmar posted:I don't think he had much of a choice. They've been setting up border patrol checkpoints north of the RGV lately, which limits the options on how to leave here. Like Vargas said, undocumented people are pretty much trapped. That's the point, we are trying to detect them and deport them. Of course, it is stupid that we set up checkpoints when we could just make it impossible to get a job or enroll in school as an illegal immigrant, which would wipe out the problem neatly.
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Jul 16, 2014 02:06
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Real hurthling! posted:It's sort of a bullshit opinion that we should deny kids an education because their parents crossed a line on a map without permission. The better we get at stopping the parents, the less and less we will have the problem in the first place. Also, presumably there is education in the country we are sending them back to. It's a slap in the face that I have to pay thousands of dollars to bring my spouse over while USCIS refuses to enforce the immigration laws we have. on the left fucked around with this message at 03:43 on Jul 16, 2014 |
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Jul 16, 2014 03:40
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Chantilly Say posted:I agree, anyone who shows up to the border should be allowed in legally without having to pay thousands of dollars. America is a nation of immigrants and should remain open to all comers. It's nice to see republicans have run with the idea of accelerationism to bring down the welfare system. Real hurthling! posted:Yeah instead of complaining try cheating the system like everybody else until you have the following train of thought: It's bullshit that we treat illegal immigrants with kid gloves, but come down ruthlessly on people who try their best to follow the laws. H1Bs are kicked out of the country with 7 days notice while illegal immigrants can just Costanza their way into staying permanently. on the left fucked around with this message at 04:41 on Jul 16, 2014 |
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Jul 16, 2014 04:36
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enraged_camel posted:Right, paying thousands of dollars makes sense, until you realize that the vast majority of that money goes to support an insane and xenophobic bureaucracy that is under a lot of pressure to turn as many people away as possible, even if they are qualified. Even if you have relatively open borders for workers, you want to restrict who can come in and you want to be able to enforce those laws. Otherwise you end up with situations like my cousin from Guatemala, who is a literal rapist (with one confirmed rape of a family member) residing illegally in the US. He got picked up for a DUI and through gross negligence of the US government at multiple levels, he was put right back on the street. No government wants people like him, and all immigration systems should be designed to catch and deport people like that.
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Jul 16, 2014 05:15
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Cercadelmar posted:I don't agree with the idea that these people are a problem to be solved. We can chat anecdotes all day, but fact is that most undocumented citizens come looking to find work and stay out of trouble. Immigration reform shouldn't be done by choosing to ignore immigration law, and when you have illegal immigration, you give up the ability to control who lives in your country.
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Jul 16, 2014 13:29
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ToxicSlurpee posted:The problem is that legal immigration is practically impossible. The departments are laughably underfunded and the queues are decades long. This is even if you're the "right" kind of immigrant. Our immigration laws are fundamentally broken and our immigration system is thoroughly ridiculous. The places where the queues are decades long are places where we've already taken in a disproportionate amount of immigrants, so even if we vastly expanded immigration, there's no real reason to cut lines in those countries. Immigration to the US shouldn't be just comprised of China, India, and Mexico. Cercadelmar posted:Who do you think should live in our country? People with exceptional skills and people from countries with roughly reciprocal immigration policies towards the US. If your country denies visas to US citizens, prepare to see your petitions denied. Also, in general, we should put people with college degrees at the front of the line. It should be basically impossible to immigrate to the US without a high school education, and we should be proactively stealing graduates from countries who invested a lot of money in making them. on the left fucked around with this message at 13:53 on Jul 16, 2014 |
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Jul 16, 2014 13:50
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Talmonis posted:The problem with open immigration is that it would be used to drive wages even further down. I don't think that the average American can compete on wages with someone from another country with the cost of our education being as high as it is. But we should vastly increase the amount of people allowed in. I like the idea of having to invest in the country in some way, whether financially or with your time. This would allow so called "non-skilled" labor into the country in a fair manner, instead of denying them outright. While also helping to fix our infastructure. America is nowhere near full, the midwest has plenty of space. Realtalk, a good immigration proposal that would be feasible is to allow cities/states to petition for their own allotment of visas. Anyone taking them would be required to maintain tax residence in the area for 3-5 years (covert to green card after). To make it more interesting, the people petitioning for these visas would be allowed to set their own requirements and national quotas. Something like this would produce some impressive statistics on the economics of immigration if a reasonable number of localities took up the offer.
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Jul 16, 2014 14:37
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Cercadelmar posted:What bothers me is how much he disregards the struggle of being undocumented in America today. It isn't "Costanzaing" around like he described, and the fact that he'd say that just makes him seem ignorant of the realities of immigrant life today. I quite intimately know a number of illegal immigrants, and my experience with this has really soured me to the way its handled in the US. In my cousin's case, the very least they could do is deport him when he got picked up for DUI, or at least do some work to discover he's committed some major crimes back in Guatemala, but both of those have been made impossible to do by well-meaning but ignorant activists and politicians. Tezzor posted:They deport tens of thousands of illegal immigrants per year, more than Bush ever did. If you have a problem with the unfairness of the law that makes it arbitrarily difficult, get mad at the law. Wow, literally thousands of illegal immigrants, out of the millions in the US. Good job Obama. With minor work, we could make it extremely difficult to be an illegal immigrant here. Simply following up on mismatched social security cards filed at businesses would allow us to catch tons of illegal immigrants.
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Jul 17, 2014 01:01
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Amused to Death posted:So you want to deport 10-12 million people or at least make their lives hell? There'd be a whole neighborhood in my city that was suddenly mostly depopulated(not like it'd happen here anyways, you leave out the part a lot of undocumented people live in sanctuary cities where the good deal of legal citizens also don't want them deported or their lives made harder) Just start enforcing the laws as written (i.e. you can't employ someone without working rights), and let the problem take care of itself.
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Jul 17, 2014 01:24
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Amused to Death posted:But does this come with legal residency for everyone already here? Why should it?
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Jul 17, 2014 02:07
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evilweasel posted:Why dont we start by ensuring no underage college students drink first. After all, its the law. It's probably a bad idea to reinforce the idea that employers can casually break labor laws through the regular course of business and get away with it. Nobody here would argue that companies using unpaid interns was a practice that should be tolerated on a similar scale as underage drinking, where everybody does it and only a few people get light punishments that can be chalked up to the cost of doing business.
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Jul 17, 2014 02:43
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evilweasel posted:We have to protect undocumented workers, by barring them from the labor market until they starve or leave their home. What's the point of even having immigration laws if we not only allow illegal immigrants to stay, but aggressively protect the right of employers to hire them? The US government doesn't even try that hard to protect the jobs of recent college graduates, as I am sure quite a few posters here will bitterly understand.
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Jul 17, 2014 03:03
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evilweasel posted:To answer seriously for once: I don't believe we should have them. We should absolutely have immigration laws, even if immigration was more or less unrestricted. There are people you don't want in the country at any costs, especially when there's a very real phenomenon of countries exporting their crime and other social problems to the US. If you seriously want to see something resembling open borders, the realistic way to get it done is to negotiate reciprocal labor freedom agreements with other countries.
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Jul 17, 2014 03:20
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computer parts posted:How about instead of deporting people and then fixing the immigration system you fix the immigration system and then work with people to actually be legally in the country? You shouldn't do it for the same reason we shouldn't tell companies "Every 5 years we will have a tax evasion amnesty where you can settle with the government for 10% of what you owe". evilweasel posted:I consider "you have a criminal record a mile long" more an exception for a new law to handle than a justification for our whole dumb system. The time period where immigration was essentially a free-for-all was also when we had no income taxes and no social security, so if that's on the table 
on the left fucked around with this message at 03:47 on Jul 17, 2014 |
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Jul 17, 2014 03:44
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Badger of Basra posted:It's not hard or cruel to make companies pay all their back taxes. It absolutely is heartless to uproot people from the lives and homes they've built here (while contributing taxes) and send them back to countries they might not even have grown up in. If there were even a snowball's chance that we would actually start enforcing the immigration laws, this would be a popular plan. Unfortunately people have caught on that amnesty is a never-ending thing once you start. The people pushing for amnesty have no plans to prevent the need for future amnesties.
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Jul 17, 2014 03:52
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evilweasel posted:How much tax revenue would we lose? I think if you're here for five years illegally you stay is a perfectly fine approach to future amnesties. 5 years is fine if we actively try to prevent people from being able to successfully stay in the country that long by enforcing the laws.
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Jul 17, 2014 04:05
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JeffersonClay posted:The 14th amendment doesn't just apply to citizens--it applies to everyone physically present in the US. People don't want to kick them out of school though, they want to remove them physically from the US.
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Jul 17, 2014 04:16
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Cercadelmar posted:What's wrong with on the left's opinion is that he's pretty blatantly prejudiced against undocumented citizens. He'll defend the idea that the people he loves are good people who deserve to live here, which isn't a bad thing. But when he's asked about other people, who's only difference is how they got here, he'll make them out to be criminals allowed to run wild by unenforced laws. Part of my family are illegal immigrants to the US, and they really should be deported. That the US hasn't done so is a mark against the immigration enforcement system.
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Jul 17, 2014 04:28
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SedanChair posted:Let's deport their employers instead. It would be great if we could deport white drug users to Latin America. Cercadelmar posted:Sorry about the bad relationship with your family, still doesn't justify stereotyping entire groups of people or asking to deport people from the lives they've made already. We don't even need to deport most people, just effectively enforce the laws we have already.
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Jul 17, 2014 04:44
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Cercadelmar posted:"We don't need to deport most people, just all of them." It's not deportation if we make illegal immigration financially unviable. Furthermore, employers who break labor laws are a good target for enforcement.
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Jul 17, 2014 04:49
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Cercadelmar posted:Economically unviable in this case implies denying them education and starving them out. Certainly one way to "wipe out the problem neatly". I don't recommend denying them education, I just recommend that the education system check social security numbers and send any weird mismatches of name and claimed social security to the department of homeland security, who can pay a visit to their home and helpfully resolve the problem. And lol at enforcing labor laws as "starving people out". Elotana posted:Do you think immigrants don't contribute to social security? poo poo a mass immigration would probably be one of the few ways of dealing with the upcoming boomer-bomb without a tax hike or a benefit cut. Illegal immigrants are already putting billions into the system now, because only a few of them are actually entirely cash-under-the-table deals, most get paid under fake SSNs or stolen identities and get their FICA withheld just like everyone else. Of course they contribute to social security, but since the jobs they get are almost universally lowly paid, it's not going to help much at all in the short term, and backfire spectacularly in the long-run when we have to pay out social security to them, which will probably happen. Elotana posted:There's an awful lot of daylight between our current "wait in line forever" immigration policies and no borders at all. I don't think most people here would object to making immigration conditional on things like passing criminal/terrorism background checks or screening for communicable diseases and up-to-date vaccinations. But that doesn't require a waiting period of years and years, or arbitrary country-of-origin quotas. I've always regretted that the US didn't have favelas and shantytowns in its major metropolitan areas. We could finally have the kind of inequality that would make Brazil say "At least we aren't America unequal" on the left fucked around with this message at 05:49 on Jul 17, 2014 |
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Jul 17, 2014 05:43
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Davethulhu posted:I'm going to address this point in a little depth. Your question doesn't make any sense. Who am I supporting, and what exactly is the statement that is a lie? Also, when it comes to selective enforcement of immigration laws, it's fair to place 100% of the blame on the executive branch, which is being run by Obama.
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Jul 17, 2014 06:05
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Cercadelmar posted:I'm wondering, how do you feel about the DREAM act? I'm fine with things like that as long as other immigrant classes are treated better. If we are going to hand out green cards, why not also hand out green cards to graduates of US universities and H1B holders who happen to be in the country at the time?
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Jul 17, 2014 06:58
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TheRamblingSoul posted:Are you joking? People most definitely get into a frothing rage over MAH TAX DOLLARS going to a single "illegal", whether it's using hospitals or schools. In an ideal world, the student would show up to school, the school notices a discrepancy with paperwork and passes a note to immigration officials who will then pay the student's home a visit and sort out the paperwork problem they seem to be having.
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Jul 17, 2014 13:57
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TheRamblingSoul posted:How could you have undocumented migrants in your family and still be this ignorant about how immigrants actually make life choices? Breaking the networks of support will absolutely help reverse the flow of immigration. If people don't make money here, they won't be able to bring their family members up and it will be incredibly hard to keep the kind of social nets that allow them to fly under the radar.
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Jul 17, 2014 14:03
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TheRamblingSoul posted:Shanty towns and favelas are a symptom of severe income inequality, not immigration. If the US stays about as rich as it is now, but imports a ton of poor people, what do you think will happen, mathematically speaking?
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Jul 17, 2014 14:05
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SedanChair posted:Our numbers will look bad? Oh no, the boss is gonna be pissed, our metrics are way down! I guess it's alright then if labor laws are basically a suggestion. I'll definitely be able to find some people willing to work for a dollar an hour.
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Jul 17, 2014 14:35
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Cercadelmar posted:Now you're just confusing me. You do know that optimally any immigration reform or amnesty would include the same basic labor protections we all have as citizens. No one outside of Freep and Stormfront would propose that we leave these people as vulnerable to exploitation as they were undocumented. Even if they are documented, if there's a huge surplus of labor, the going rate for wage labor can easily go below the minimum wage. The most legal way that this happens is self-owned business, and quickly goes less legal depending on a particular industry's penchant for under the table/unpaid labor.
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Jul 17, 2014 14:55
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If we want to reform immigration, shouldn't we logically start by offering visas to a couple million recent college graduates looking to start their careers? This would have optimal economic payoff compared to any other group. It seems pretty silly for a bunch of college-educated 20-somethings to be talking about essentially demolishing low-skill wages in the US.
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Jul 17, 2014 15:05
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