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Cardiac posted:Free choice schooling had little to do with the schools going down... I wouldn't undersell the effect free choice schooling (Fri Skola) has had on the Swedish school system. The number of fri skolor has exploded since their inception with someone areas having more fri skols than municipal schools. Fri Skolor can say no to handicapped kids as well as underperforming and kids with mental disabilities, something that municipal schools can't. Schools run by hedge funds try to bait kids with free laptops and the rake in huge amount of profits. It's a bit hosed up to see public schooling as an industry as these people do. V's election film about Swedish fri skolor and their hedge fund driven ideas. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwgrNDK1FIg See also weird cost cutting methods, like kunskapskolans sending kids of to falun to have wood shop, sewing class, cooking and drawing lessons, meaning the students only have one cooking lesson per term or sometimes even year! Welfare and hedge funds don't mix.
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Aug 12, 2014 16:04
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Cardiac posted:The whole immigration/integration debate in Sweden is completly locked down because no one wants to give SD any form of legitimacy. The rascist card and Godwin is used heavily to suppress any debate. Personally a huge problem is to take the debate with SD is to legitimize their view of the world, and only serves normalize their racist and xenophobic ideas. In my opnion there are legitimate issues within the immigration that needs to be dealt with, but none so big that it trumps all other issues. Thus it's silly to have a party solely based on that issue, unless you have another reason (because of course they do  ). There shouldn't be a party just about immigration just as much as there should be a party against graffiti or road construction, must as these are "important issues that cost tax-payers money" as well.Most of SD's success stems from playing on people's inherent xenophobia and racism in a time of economic uncertainty, not because immigrants suddenly became to costly. nagel posted:I also have my own theory about a lot of SD voters are not racists... What's not hard to speculate about is that SD politicians themselves are terrible racists! SD politician has bought an AK47 and explosive belt to protect themselves from blacks [url="https://"http://www.interasistmen.se/granskning/riksdagsledamot-hyllar-nazistiska-svps-aktioner-det-ar-mycket-bra/"] MP praises Nazi SVP's actions - "It is very good" [/url] [url="https://"http://www.interasistmen.se/granskning/sd-kandidat-vi-behover-starta-motstandskriget-nu/"] SD candidate: "WE NEED TO START THE RESISTANCE WAR NOW !!!" [/url] Sorry but i just needed to clear the air a bit. Have had to many colleagues saying something similar too"Well... SD has a poooooint"...
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Aug 15, 2014 19:31
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lilljonas posted:Visita (restaurant lobby group) might rival them at this point when it comes to plastering stuff all over the place. That poo poo has been obnoxious since back in spring, and there are almost more of their posters than m posters around here. That poo poo pisses me off to no end. They campaign talking about "dubbel stöten" (the double strike) refers to it as something that has been existing for years being removed and crying desperately for all the JOBS the evil socialists are taking from them when in fact: 1: The change happened 2012, so i guess if the restaurant industry survived 2 years ago it can still do so today? 2: It has led to fewer than 4000 jobs which (dividing by the cost of the program) comes out to be 1.35 million per job. The election seems more or less a given for the reds, my only fear is that S will be unwilling to act on any of the issues due to fear of backlash. They have been really quiet about what real changes they want to make and what parts of the alliance politics they will remove / leave alone. Makes me a bit worried.
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Sep 2, 2014 15:40
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Hevo posted:Is it discrimination to prioritize integration over immigration? Is it discrimination to cut down immigration? Please, I am genuinely curious, feel free to enlighten me. Nooooooooo, not really. This is not what SD want's off course. But that is the whole point of the SD's party's whole "new image" kinda thing. First, let's have a history lesson. This is reccomended reading and it's full of all kinds of fun stuff: http://expo.se/www/download/sds_vitbok_Expo_2_2014.pdf 1993: Outside of Gudrun schymans first of May speech the leader of the SD youth organisation is found and arrested with a live hand grenade. 1997: Lars Emanuelsson, then parti organiser is convicted of extortion of a fellow party member. Said pushed him into a car using a baseball bat and forced him to sign a debt letter for 10,000 kr. The then party chairman commented "This a nothing that should'nt affect Lars political future". 1999. The party looked over it's rules and decided that kicking out anyone who came to Sweden after 1970 is a bad idea. 1999: Franz Schönhuber,ex Waffen SS visits the party Also a lot of connections to different white power movements both within Sweden and outside, Front national and anti semites. Nope, not racist. Off course SD reformed! And now they are just "against multiculturalism and "what about the cost of the Swedish tax payer?" and "They are all religious extremists/terrorists/wife beaters" etc etc... You know, relatively clean arguments. Compared to hand grenades and down with race mixing at least. Reminds me of the southern strategy for the Republicans: Lee Atwater: posted:"You start out in 1954 by saying, "friend of the family, friend of the family, friend of the family." By 1968 you can't say "friend of the family" — that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me — because obviously sitting around saying, "We want to cut this," is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than "friend of the family, friend of the family." quote:I do not see the racist part in wanting to help these people in a more efficient manner. To shorten the queues to quicken the asylum process. To integrate those who have already arrived, and who are living under utterly poor conditions in ghettos and suburbs around the country. quote:To actually help them where they need our help the most: in their own countries. quote:I am frankly disgusted when I hear serious and intelligent seasoned politicians such as Löfvén, Hägglund, and Reinfeldt refer to their, the current, immigration policy as humane. quote:but can we please drop this ridiculous notion that the Sweden Democrats is a racist party, and that all – every single one – of its party members are racists? To retort, no, not every single person in who votes for SD is a racist, neither 100% party top or supporters. This is however a useless thing to say, i can just as well say "Not everyone in Moderaterna are for selling our welfare" and it would be equally true, i have no "proof" that this is true for EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN THE PARTY. However, just looking at what the party does tells you a lot what they and their supporters stand for. SD's new image is a smoke screen. It's nothing more then a thin facade that is digestible enough that we can't easily swat it away by pointing at their SS symbols. They want to be accepted and taken seriously, as the racist party that doesn't poo poo on the carpet, and it that they have been pretty successful. SD IS STILL A RACIST PARTY. It origins are connected to the white power movement. SD's politicians horrendous racist opinions come out daily(Oh, and the fact that they then "leave" SD does not make up for this) SD supporters threatens anyone who criticizes them by doxxing them and threatening them with gang rape. Their politics focus almost solely on getting rid of immigrants (NOT integration: stopping immigration, grants for returning home, stop them wasting OUR money etc etc). So can we please stop pretending that SD is nothing more then a racist party? Here, read this site, just read one full page and come back and tell me that SD is not a racist party: http://www.interasistmen.se/ Hey, just to be clear, i think that integration is an important issue to. SD is not the party to deal with this. Fixing integration will probably end up costing more money in the short term then it currently does, something SD is 100% against. Their very presence is killing any debate and willingness to deal with the issue, everyone is too afraid to be associated with their terrible terrible politics. On another note: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmfdB1qL1QA&t=204s
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Sep 4, 2014 08:22
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Cardiac posted:
 Cardiac posted:You believe in space lizards as well? It is almost like you think that SD will start wearing uniforms and saying heil hitler if they become the majority? Cardiac posted:Also, you can apply the exact same approach on V. The same party that consistently have had party members advocating violence as a tool in politics. So far this year they have been forced to expel a number of party members. Cardiac posted:Also, this was refused as a commercial for SD in DN and multiple other newspapers. Please tell me where the racism is here? Seems pretty tame compared to most SD ads that got banned... Would like to see any kind of independent source that it isn't totally fabricated story? Maybe don't believe everything(read: nothing) you read on avpixlat, a racist site in cahoots with SD (And you think expo is impartial). Anyway for one thing that graph is only showing the number of applicants, not the number of accepted while the title is "Asyl Mottagning". Kinda misleading / poorly designed. Why are you so hellbent on defending a party full of xenophobic racists? Again, SD is a party with a party line full of racists, with a support base full of racists, and with political suggestions that are xenophobic and that doesn't actually work. Their presence inside the parliament is a loving disgrace. Why are you defending any of it? Is immigration just so loving important no matter the cost? White Rock fucked around with this message at 08:44 on Sep 8, 2014 |
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Sep 7, 2014 22:02
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lilljonas posted:
I never got C. They were always the old farmers party and now there is very little farmers left. After that i have never really gotten a clear picture of what their politics are and they don't really follow a good party line. Right wing environmentalists? More autonomy for diffrent regions? At any time you think you know what they are they suggest something completely insane. Like letting librarys be run by private and for profit compaines I feel that any party of their size should keep to their main issues (whatever they are).
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Sep 13, 2014 15:05
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Let's keep positive. 87 % didn't vote for the racists, and all parties are basically treating sd like the big poo on the stick they are. Nobody will want to cooperate with them. Looks like a weird center cooperation. S, MP, C, FP perhaps?
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Sep 14, 2014 22:24
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Cardiac posted:Anyone still thinks that 13% of the Swedish population are racists or is there a simpler explanation? (Note: Trick question) 13% of Sweden voted for a racist party full of racists politicians who promote racist policies. I don not personally know 13% of Sweden. I have given plenty of examples previously in the thread of people within SD who express racist attitudes and how SD has neo nazi beginnings. I can probably find even more SD sympathizers who have racist belief, but most supporters tend to look a lot like the party they follow if you know what i mean  I don't really think that 13% of Sweden is racists. They probably actually believe SD's agenda, that stopping immigrants will somehow fix their problems, be it unemployment or the bad economy. Racism plays a big part of that off course and shouldn't be dismissed. To say "13 % of Sweden isn't racists" is not the same as "SD is not a racists party" or "the majority of SD supporters do not support xenophobic beliefs". But you know what, fine, let's stop going back and forth with the "Racist/Not Racists" arguments and talk about their politics of this. "Take the debate" and all that. Let's pretend for a moment that SD gets any kind of political power in this new government. Hell, let's pretend that they get to pull through quite a bit of their policies through a kingmaker role or something similar. How much money will stopping the flow of refugees really save? Do you have any reliable numbers not dreamt up by avpixlat? Is it an significant amount that will help to prop up the budget? How does this money compare to, say, cutting the JobbSkatteAvdrag, which at the current is up at 70 000 millions sek? If SD thinks integration is important, how is the integration of current residents to be accomplished? Usually integration is a costly business, are we talking job programs or low income apartments in the cities to prevent physical segregation in ghettos? Or is the plan just to cut the current flow of immigrants, thus "fixing" integration by not having refugees and ignoring current segregation? How will any of SD's politics end the real challenges faced by Sweden today? Such as: Increased youth unemployment, lack of affordable apartments, faltering school results, etc?
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Sep 15, 2014 19:03
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Rnr posted:
Let me reiterate from a previous post: SD has no solutions to the integration issue. Their one solution is to basically close the border, prevent further immigration or make it extremely difficult. They do not have a solution for the current immigrants. Hey, i agree, integration should be fixed. This costs MONEY. Something none of the parties want to wave a flag around for fear of driving even MORE voters to SD. Best political move? Ignore SD, pretend integration is not an issue, "jobs jobs jobs jobs economy school jobs jobs jobs". It's very possible to keep your own culture while incorporating enough parts of themselves to make it work in the host country. Integration/Assimilation difference and all that.
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Sep 16, 2014 20:48
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Ligur posted:I was making fun of the fact if someone says "immigration should be limited to some extent" the Swede debater either says nothing, or calls the other person a racist. "Oh those Swedish debaters, your not even allowed to say that Hitler was right before they call you a racist"  Ligur posted:Granting many asylum seekers asylum will instead give you a bunch of issues though while not fixing any. Asylum/ASYL DOES change things, it saves peoples lives. That's the whole point. Asylum = protection from violence or persecution. Ligur posted:In fact it changes almost nothing, apart from your society. And you can't give everyone that deserving Nordic welfare, no matter how much you try. The problems on location have to be fixed. On location. It's hard to fix things on the spot if the thing is "I live in an active warzone and my neighbors got his head chopped off" or "I live in a society that will kill me for my sexual orientation". It's not that "I will be poor and have no clean drinking water" it is " I will die. Someone will kill me, my life is in danger". Sidenote: For all other immigration casees, Sweden does have income checks, job checks and all what SD is slobbering for. For a EU immigrant for example, you need to either A. Have a job ready when you come. B. Have money saved up/Pension for at least a year or more. C. Be in a close relationship or relative with Swedish Citizen D. Be a relative a Swedish citizen (or someone with permanent staying rights i belive? Unsure.) E. Have someone vouch that they will completely care of your needs (Which then triggers a bunch of other checks for income and blalblaba). The view that you can just walk up to the migration office and get a staying permit is false, there are many checks and balances for the non asylum cases.
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Sep 17, 2014 17:19
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Zombiepop posted:rant incoming and I will probably offend someone with it: Not offended. Zombiepop posted:Maybe we actually should limit the immigration so we can spend money on the ones that are here instead of treating them as second class citizens? Zombiepop posted:and yes yes there is so much money, and we can all share! but no, the world dont look like that, so even talkin like that is a possibility is pretty dumb.
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Sep 17, 2014 20:32
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Josef K. Sourdust posted:Interesting thread. Here is an article in English. Is it a fair summary for non-Swedish-speaking observers? They mention Reinfeldt as some great saver of the nation. They don't mention the huge privatizations in schools/hospitals/elerdy care, humiliating unemployment strategies, useless tax cuts ("dubbel stöten"), sick people getting their benefits cut and increasing inequality. A big part of the nation think Reinfeldt has destroyed much of the welfare we had.
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Sep 24, 2014 13:36
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See, This is why nobody "takes the debate" with SD supporters. It's bashing your head on a wall, a wall that spews semi overheard unsourced bullshit and racist factoids. Just gonna get a bloody forehead. So the new government was announced, S + Mp, I guess all the flirting cross the block didn't work out. V seems to want to cooperate, we'll see how much they can pull on the "no for profit welfare" promise.
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Sep 28, 2014 08:31
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Cardiac posted:Hmm, or is it the other way around? Hahaha hey cardiac, good to see you. You know I've been pretty good with following up your your avpixlat link dumps with sourced responses, but you tend to disappear afterwards. And also it's late. But here is a perfect example of what I'm taking about! quote:First we had the argument that we needed immigrants to replace workers when people retired, which have proven to be false Unsourced claim nr 1. quote:then we had the argument that says immigrants will render a net profit, where we in the ideal case only goes +/-0 Unsourced claim nr 2. quote:we save people fleeing from war, where in reality it is only the immigrants that are wealthy enough to pay 100k that comes to Sweden. See you can't just declare an argument dead without no backup. As I've said before, if I theoretically believed that cutting immigration would save a third of the budget and was the key too lowering unemployment and fixing integration and the economy ( like in Sd imagination ): I would be right there with you. I'd be running naked down the street with a tiny Swedish flag up my butt. I still don't see Sd s politics doing anything but maybe, maaaybe making it so there is no beggar outside of the coop. Wooooooo
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Sep 29, 2014 00:30
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Cardiac posted:Also I just checked your post history in this thread, and I can't find any sourced links disproving my links. But I might have missed them? Cardiac posted:Also, I have supplied links for these statements in this thread taken from varying sources including Svt, DN and other places. Cardiac posted:Of course I read Fria Tider, Flashback and Avpixlat, since it provides additional information and typically all articles are sourced there. Our newspapers are hardly unbiased, which the treatment of Arnstad, Researchgruppen, SUM, MMRK and now lately one boss at SR clearly shows. Cardiac posted:since in a couple of years a number of major Swedish newspapers will be dead.  Ahahaha. Okay so every single major newspaper in sweden will be dead... why? Because of their abhorrant bias towards the immigrant question? That is insane. This is insane.
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Sep 29, 2014 19:37
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Ligur posted:
"Gang rapists in bushes"? Again nobody's convincing anybody on either side here, can we move on? I'm really sad to see S going back on the promise to reinstate higher sales tax on restaurants, it's such and idiotic idea that only serves to give more money to restaurant. I mean not that's necessarily a bad thing, it just does very little in what it was supposed to do, creating jobs. Oh and motherfucking called it... White Rock posted:The election seems more or less a given for the reds, my only fear is that S will be unwilling to act on any of the issues due to fear of backlash. I suspect that big media campaign from the restaurant lobby had something to do with it. Combined with C's big lift from the beginning of the year i get the feeling that the amount of money you put in your marketing matters more then what is actually true, which is a really sad idea in general.
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Oct 3, 2014 15:51
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Randarkman posted:Miljøpartiet De Grønne (Green Party) So you only have a 2% cut off? Wow, that must really change the political landscape. The 4% cutoff in Sweden had several of the tiny right wing parties running for their lives this election year, they managed to stay in government though. It's funny how by and large you can kinda see the exactly same parties as in Sweden, but with percentages and slight difference of issues.
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Oct 4, 2014 14:42
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Nice piece of fish posted:Speaking generally, just thinking about scandinavia and recent history as a whole - is anyone in this thread surprised about the sudden shift towards right-wing politics? Was any of this really preventable? Maybe, perhaps. The current total disembowelment of Scandinavian countries welfare comes from the social democrats themselves. During the economic crisis in the 90's and the fall of the Soviet Union, most Social democratic parties became convinced that their idea of slowly reforming society into a socialist state (as every party had in their party manifesto at that time) was wrong and would never work. That, and in turn with rising support for capitalism became the ground for the "Third way socialism". An ideology most characterized of parties not pulling to the left. Instead, social democrats would just be a slow resistance for the reformation towards capitalism, and a speed bump for neo liberalism. Who would have guessed that this would lead to all parties pulling towards the middle? Social Democratic parties are ideology dead, they have no central idea to base their thoughts on. Then again, the promise from the right that lower taxes and selling all of our welfare will rise all ships seems more and more ridiculous to the common man every year. And total voter apathy sets in because every single party except the far left sings "THE FREE MARKET WILL SAVE US" at various volumes... Hopefully we can see some new parties rising that are not are not populist racist parties. If Greece is any model, first you get some fascists shitheels, then your Social Democratic and rightwing parties collapse, then you get a new left who might be marginally better.
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Jan 31, 2015 10:34
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lilljonas posted:Schools are run by the kommun, not the landsting. The landsting is mostly in charge of healthcare and certain infrastructure. Sidenote on this, haven't always been the case, see: http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kommunaliseringen_av_skolan_i_Sverige and to a lesser note http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friskolereformen Basically, Göran Persson transferred the schools from national level to the communes in 89. Shortly thereafter, Carl Bildt oversaw the friskola reform, which paved the way for privately run schools (including being allowed to be run by hedgefunds! Yay!). Teacher union has always been against the decentralization, saying that it will increase gaps and make the school level unequal. Guess what happened the last 20 years...
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Feb 5, 2015 20:03
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Nice piece of fish posted:But the housing bubble will never burst Is there any way to get down from this without it bursting thought? It feels like a bullet you have to bite at some point, better now than later when it's even bigger... Is there any way to deflate the bubble without wrecking the economy and leaving thousands of people in debt?
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Apr 24, 2015 08:37
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