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how do you respond to these allegations op are you properly chastened
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Sep 14, 2014 22:00
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Captain Mog posted:What would you say to someone who said that what you're doing is degrading to women and aiding in the objectification of females by men? Do you think that prostitution is something that can be empowering to women? I'm not being sarcastic. This is an honest question and I'm curious to hear your response. It empowers them with money for doing something they're comfortable with and can choose to quit doing any time. 
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Sep 14, 2014 23:06
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but you see capitalism is bad and sex with women is inherently degrading and
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Sep 14, 2014 23:26
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I don't necessarily have any issue with legalized prostitution (or capitalism? but I'm gay so I do maybe have a personal problem with sex with women). I just wanted to hear what her answer to a question like that would be. She said she was open to questions related to feminism so I don't see how that was such an odd thing to ask and I also didn't realize certain things were off-limits in a thread about prostitution.Hydrolith posted:Well, you clearly haven't read the thread, because Poopy's a lady, not a guy. My apologies, I fixed the post. Captain Mog fucked around with this message at 00:33 on Sep 15, 2014 |
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Sep 14, 2014 23:53
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Captain Mog posted:I don't necessarily have any issue with legalized prostitution (or capitalism? but I'm gay so I do maybe have a personal problem with sex with women). I just wanted to hear what his answer to a question like that would be. He said he was open to questions related to feminism so I don't see how that was such an odd thing to ask and I also didn't realize certain things were off-limits in a thread about prostitution. Well, you clearly haven't read the thread, because Poopy's a lady, not a guy.
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Sep 15, 2014 00:09
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beanieson posted:Wait, objecting to haggling is racist? Only brown people haggle, DUH!!! My Q-Face posted:It empowers them with money for doing something they're comfortable with and can choose to quit doing any time. This.
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Sep 15, 2014 04:12
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Kaal posted:You mention that you don't offer discount rates for regular clients, but why not? Some products are so strong you just don't have to I'd imagine.
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Sep 15, 2014 04:27
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Not sure if you will answer this. But what suburb in Melbourne is it in?
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Sep 15, 2014 12:28
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Applecross WC. posted:Not sure if you will answer this. How many brothels do you think there are per suburb that this wouldn't be basically equivalent to giving the name of the business?
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Sep 15, 2014 13:04
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Tiggum posted:How many brothels do you think there are per suburb that this wouldn't be basically equivalent to giving the name of the business? I know some suburbs where there are 3 or 4 but it probably narrows it down too much.
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Sep 15, 2014 14:14
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Kaal posted:You mention that you don't offer discount rates for regular clients, but why not? I don't think economics of scale applies to handjobs.
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Sep 15, 2014 15:04
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Aggressive pricing posted:I don't think economics of scale applies to handjobs. But you have two hands!
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Sep 15, 2014 15:07
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Tim Raines IRL posted:why? If the ethos here is just "it's a service industry, treat it like a service industry like everything else", then why is contract negotiation gross? Unless you're objecting to the whole principle of haggling, in which case that sounds pretty racist. Also it's not really contract negotiation, is it. Kaal posted:Oh this reminds me of a question: Since advertising is legally limited, does your company (or other area companies) do other standard marketing practices? I mean things like offer package deals, memberships, coupons, discounts, daily specials, etc. You mention that you don't offer discount rates for regular clients, but why not? They seem to work well for some industries, but since legalized sex work remains fairly distinct from other legal industries I wonder. Plus I'm not sure how I'd feel if I was a sex worker and saw a billboard outside the building that read "Teabag Tuesday 20% OFF" or whatever. Maybe I'd feel cheap, or maybe I'd think, "Hey that's good business!" I don't really know. Some places do offer regular client discounts or specials/daily deals, but I've always hated the practise, because like I said, these women are offering themselves, they are not a two-for-one burger deal. It doesn't actually increase traffic, either, in my experience. For the most part if you are a punter, you know the prices and are willing to pay. I don't often have people complain about the price, and the ones that leave because of it are not the clients we want. Captain Mog posted:What would you say to someone who said that what you're doing is degrading to women and aiding in the objectification of females by men? Do you think that prostitution is something that can be empowering to women? I'm not being sarcastic. This is an honest question and I'm curious to hear your response. If someone said that to me, I'd laugh in their face, as they clearly have no idea about the industry. I do not think it is degrading at all. The women that work in this industry choose to work in this industry, and yes, many of them find it a very empowering experience. I consider myself a feminist. Like... I've been called rabid when it comes to women's rights and the feminist cause. Those beliefs do not clash at all with my work. The sex industry is dominated by females, it is a place of acceptance and of community. I'm not saying it's a wonderful land of happiness and rainbows, nowhere is, but people looking in from the outside don't really have any idea of what they're talking about. My general response is of you don't like it, don't suck cock for a living, but don't stop other people from doing a job they enjoy. Sorry if this is a bit jumbled, it's very late at night and I should be sleeping. Will clarify anything I've hosed up in the morning.
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Sep 16, 2014 13:45
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Aggressive pricing posted:I don't think economics of scale applies to handjobs. I forgot to say in my earlier post, but we're a small company, we have a single service we provide, and we don't sell in super-high volumes. Big companies (and even smaller ones) can afford to offer discounts and the like because they're selling something that they can afford to discount like,they buy at wholesale prices, and mark it up by 100% or more. They can discount their products while still making a profit. There is two parts to our standard fee. One part goes to the lady, the other to the house, and a discount has to come out of one of those parts. It just doesn't work. Applecross WC. posted:Not sure if you will answer this.
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Sep 16, 2014 13:53
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Poopy posted:I do not think it is degrading at all. The women that work in this industry choose to work in this industry, and yes, many of them find it a very empowering experience. As long as the women are doing it by their own choice and are otherwise normal employees with rights, it really isn't all that different from any other job. They're offering a (legal) service in exchange for payment, simple as that. Any objections to this type of work is grounded in moral issues, not practical ones, and usually out of misguided wish to "save" the sex workers. It only gets degrading and abusive to women when you start mixing human trafficking and exploitation into it. This often happens in countries where prostitution is legally questionable or outright illegal, opening a market for illicit sex trade with no protection for the sex workers. Legalization, regulation and keeping everything above-board is the only way to ensure a safe environment for sex workers. As Poopy tells it, the brothel she manages and the legal situation in her part of Australia is an example of how to do things right. KozmoNaut fucked around with this message at 13:57 on Sep 16, 2014 |
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Sep 16, 2014 13:55
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Poopy posted:I've actually been waiting for this question. It sounds like Australia is a very sex-positive and progressive country, compared to the United States. I've heard about a documentary called Scarlet Road, about Australian sex workers who specialize in working with clients with physical disabilities, to help them experience "normal" sexual encounters. Do you get any clients with disabilities?
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Sep 16, 2014 14:45
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Big Bad Voodoo Lou posted:It sounds like Australia is a very sex-positive and progressive country, compared to the United States. I've heard about a documentary called Scarlet Road, about Australian sex workers who specialize in working with clients with physical disabilities, to help them experience "normal" sexual encounters. Do you get any clients with disabilities? Rachel Wotton, the sex worker that Scarlet Road follows is an amazing woman, and that's a great doco. Aus generally is pretty progressive, although the current govt is trying to undo all of that. They're pushing for the Nordic Model to be introduced which is a terrible idea and endangers the lives and jobs of sex workers everywhere, by criminalising the purchase of sex, but not the selling. It basically means the clients will be breaking the law, which will mean that the clients who continue punting are clients who are willing to break the law, upping the chances of physical and sexual violence directed at the girls, as well as shutting down brothels, ie, shutting down the safest place for these girls to work, among other lovely outcomes, while hiding under a guise of "WE'RE DOING THIS FOR YOUR SAFETY, YO. WE CARE ABOUT YOU WHORES AND YOUR SAFTEY. WE KNOW WHAT WERE TALKING ABOUT YES" they do not care about workers, or know what they're talking about. ANYWAY BACK TO YOUR QUESTION: Occasionally. Our girls deal a lot more with mental disabilities rather than physical disabilities. From what I understand a lot of clients with physical disabilities prefer outcall services, simply because a lot (most) brothels in this city are not really set up for it, lots of stairs and stuff. We have a few regular clients who come in with various levels of intellectual disabilities, and they're often some of the most lovely clients, they aren't pushy or rude or hard to deal with, they treat the girls with respect and the girls really like working with them. Occasionally they can be a bit of a handful, but for the most part they're easy-going and sweet. I know there are a few places in the city that can cater to disabled clients, and that's awesome.
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Sep 17, 2014 02:46
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Big Bad Voodoo Lou posted:It sounds like Australia is a very sex-positive and progressive country, compared to the United States. Bear in mind, this varies from state to state. NSW's prostitution laws are even more progressive than Victoria's (where the OP's brothel is), but as far as I know the other states are much more regressive.
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Sep 17, 2014 02:51
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Hydrolith posted:
On the other hand, Big Bad Voodoo Lou is talking in comparison to the United States, so it's not that high of a bar to pass.
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Sep 17, 2014 05:42
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Big Bad Voodoo Lou posted:It sounds like Australia is a very sex-positive and progressive country, compared to the United States. Depends on which issue. We're way behind in terms of gay rights and abortion, for instance.
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Sep 17, 2014 08:45
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Do you have an opinion on the establishments that just advertise massage and 'strictly no sexual service' but then actually do offer essentially what your business is but illegally? Context being the time I went for a couples massage with my girlfriend but ended up in separate rooms next to each other instead where the girl was suddenly playing with my junk and asking if I wanted to pay for more.
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Sep 17, 2014 10:26
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Poopy posted:
Are there any girls not comfortable working with them? Would it be possible for a disabled girl to work at the brothel? It seems like a weird area between sexually mature and intellectually immature. e: feel free to ignore this post, since any answer has the potential of a huge cluster gently caress derail, but I do think it is important to consider where the line would be when it comes to mental disabilities and the sex trade. Aggressive pricing fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Sep 18, 2014 |
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Sep 17, 2014 15:25
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Metos posted:Do you have an opinion on the establishments that just advertise massage and 'strictly no sexual service' but then actually do offer essentially what your business is but illegally? They make me really loving grumpy. Basically, when politicians and councillors and right-wingers are talking about the illegal sex trade and trafficking and the horrors of the sex industry in Australia, this is where 99.9% of it happens. These are the places that bring girls over with the promise of good work and homes and citizenship, and they're the same places that take the girls passports off them and force them to work off a debt they may not know they owed. This is where the illegal stuff happens. These places are the places that are held up as examples of why the sex industry is bad and awful and destroying "our girls" (like they loving own us), they go "look at how bad these girls are being treated!" (Always in the diminutive, always "girls" not "women", because the latter suggests free-will and the ability to make decisions without the help of anyone else). And the sex industry, the actual industry, that follows the rules and is licensed and treats their girls fairly go "yes! It is terrible what those business are doing to those women, that is why you should shut them down!" And the politicians go "yes, we will proceed to try to shut you down, that is a great idea! Never mind about those little illegal massage parlours, they are small time! Let's go for the law abiders!" And the industry is left going "wait, what?" My partner actually started working in one of those shops when we first moved. She was interested in sex work but wasn't aware that non-full-service shops existed. In the month she worked there she saw three women assaulted, including one woman who the client stripped naked and chased around the room demanding full service. The other girls ran in to help once they heard her scream. The owners refused to call the police, gave the client a full refund, and disciplined the girl. They also made a girl take a booking after hours and do oral for $12 because that's all the client had on him, bullying and threatening her in to it. When the police went in to one of their shops (they had 5 around the inner suburbs) a message was sent out to all employees to "be careful about who you service and if you think they're a cop don't offer extras". They're since been shut down and the owners are facing prison terms thanks to the help of my partner and a couple of other girls that she worked with who went to the police, not out of bitterness or vindication, but because they feared for the girls that couldn't get out. TL;DR gently caress illegal "massage" shops and the assholes that run them. Aggressive pricing posted:Are there any girls not comfortable working with them? Would it be possible for a disabled girl to work at the brothel? I'm not going to ignore a question because it's a potentially hard one to answer, these are all questions I'm aware of and are part of ongoing discussions within the industry. In regards to disabled women working here, it is quite a hard thing to make a call on. In terms of physical disability I am always willing to give people a go if they think they're capable. Our shop isn't really set up for it, being that each of our rooms only have a massage table that's almost waist high on me. There's an amazing sex worker in the states called Lyric Seal who is wheelchair bound and still works, has worked with Courtney Trouble, Jizz Lee and various other indie porn professionals, as well as being a prominent sex educator who is really great to check out if you're curious about disabilities in the sex industry. Mental/intellectual disabilities are a bit more tricky. It becomes a question of yes, are they intellectually mature enough to be doing the job, do they have the intellectual maturity to properly consent? And when it comes to clients, will they take advantage, is it a fetish for them and is the woman okay with that? There's a lot of questions to be asked, and I don't know how to answer them fully as I've never come across this situation. As for clients, it's a hard thing to judge, really. The general consensus is if they can make their way here and ask for what they want, they're intellectually mature enough to be here. I mean, they have jobs, they have lives, and for the most part they just want some human connection that they find hard to experience elsewhere. So, this thread is getting very serious, so I'll lighten the mood by telling you about my morning. I spent 10 minutes rubbing tanning lotion onto the back and shoulders of a naked woman, while another naked girl applied it to her butt. My job is awesome.
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Sep 18, 2014 02:17
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hi! I think it's way awesome how your workplace runs and I wish the United States would do something similar. it is way too easy for women to get exploited here.  i have a question, do the girls get a benefits package if they work full time?
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Sep 18, 2014 03:25
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A Spider Covets posted:hi! I think it's way awesome how your workplace runs and I wish the United States would do something similar. it is way too easy for women to get exploited here. Yeah, it's a pretty awesome place. As I said earlier, Au and NZ are being used as an example off how to do the industry right, against calls for the Nordic Model to be introduced outside of Sweden and Norway. And no. Basically, the girls are classed as independent contractors that rent our rooms, so the cut of the booking that goes to the house is their rent payment, and the rest is theirs. The only people officially employed as staff in brothels are the mgmt/reception, and we don't get a benefits package so much as we get paid super well, have flexible shifts, and if the boss is awesome like mine, pretty big bonuses and other perks. For example, I don't get sick leave or holiday leave, but when I had to have surgery a few months ago she still paid me for the days I had to take off, just because she could.
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Sep 18, 2014 03:59
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In your experience how well do you rate the major and minor parties with regards to the industry? I know there are elements of the left and right that have problems with it.
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Sep 18, 2014 12:54
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And this is why I love SA; thanks for the thread Poopy! Sweet motorcycle btw.
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Sep 24, 2014 12:34
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Poopy posted:"look at how bad these girls are being treated!" (Always in the diminutive, always "girls" not "women", because the latter suggests free-will and the ability to make decisions without the help of anyone else). You do realize you yourself have been referring to the employees almost exclusively as girls, right? I'm sure plenty of those who demonize sex workers are trying to infantilize them by using the word, but when you turn around and refer to them as girls constantly, even if it is probably just out of a sense of camaraderie, it appears that girls is the preferred nomenclature from someone in the industry.
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Sep 24, 2014 14:09
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^ You touched on this in your post but I think context is really important.
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Sep 24, 2014 15:15
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MEMRI posted:^ You touched on this in your post but I think context is really important. It is, but for an outsider trying to find a polite way of saying "sex worker" (they probably consider sex work itself bad and thus the name must be as well, but that is a whole nother can of worms) the easiest thing to do is use the same names they use for themselves. In this case, girls. Yes, context matters, it always does. But when you constantly use girls to refer to the workers it is hardly unexpected that others would pick it up.
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Sep 24, 2014 15:31
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Captain_Red posted:In your experience how well do you rate the major and minor parties with regards to the industry? I know there are elements of the left and right that have problems with it. It's all pretty poo poo. So, in 1984 the Labor govt decriminalised and regulated the sex industry in Victoria, and shortly after when the Libs came back in to power they kept the regulations as is, and not much has been done since other than a few very biased studies. Pretty much only the Australian Sex Party have firm views on the industry at the moment, in that they think the regulations are too strict and are campaigning for looser regs. Labor and the Coalition try to pretend we don't exist for the most part, and the Greens unfortunately want to shut us down. Basically we don't exist until something goes wrong, which thankfully, it often doesn't. Dammit_Carl! posted:And this is why I love SA; thanks for the thread Poopy! Chichevache posted:You do realize you yourself have been referring to the employees almost exclusively as girls, right? I'm sure plenty of those who demonize sex workers are trying to infantilize them by using the word, but when you turn around and refer to them as girls constantly, even if it is probably just out of a sense of camaraderie, it appears that girls is the preferred nomenclature from someone in the industry. MEMRI posted:^ You touched on this in your post but I think context is really important. Chichevache posted:It is, but for an outsider trying to find a polite way of saying "sex worker" (they probably consider sex work itself bad and thus the name must be as well, but that is a whole nother can of worms) the easiest thing to do is use the same names they use for themselves. In this case, girls. Yes, context matters, it always does. But when you constantly use girls to refer to the workers it is hardly unexpected that others would pick it up. A polite way of saying "sex worker" is just that, sex worker. Lady/ladies or woman/women are also acceptable. It really always comes down to context. The intention behind a phrase is important, and in this case, usually very apparent. I use it casually to refer to the women I work with. We are a close-knit group, at times even family like. We use terms of endearment like "honey" and "sweetie" and "babe" and "hey rear end in a top hat". We even occasionally make jokes about their line of work*. But that comes from knowing each other well. We spend huge chunks of our time in close quarters, we know each other better than even some of our friends outside of work, and so casualness and familiarity have great effect on how we interact. I (and the women I work with) don't mind clients using "girls", or even in instances like this, where a discussion is taking place and it's being used as a general term. It's when it is used as a derogative, used to infantilise these women, to suggest immaturity and an irrationality that it becomes a problem. We use the term casually, and affectionately, clients may use it because they hear us using it, as you suggested (actually, more often they use "ladies" or "women"). In cases where it is being used against these women it is chosen, and that is where the difference lies. They choose to infantilise and demean these women to try and sway the public to their views. It's not a casual, throw away word to them. *actual example of poo poo that gets said at work Girl 1: /talking about a first date she'd been on the night before/ it was really great! Girl 2: did anything happen? G1: we kissed, but I didn't sleep with him, I'm not a slut! G: but you are a whore! *10 minutes of laughter from all of us*
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Sep 25, 2014 05:26
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I think the bigger point, though, is that regardless of your closeness to these women, when you're referring to them as girls to people you don't know, that gives off a completely different meaning than when you're speaking to one of them. This is exaggerated even further when you use the term "our girls." Even if it's not meant that way, it implies ownership. People against prostitution don't see themselves as being regressive and limiting sexual freedom; they see themselves as being protective and eliminating sexual exploitation. I'm not making the argument that it's improper to refer to people you work with however you want. I'm just saying that people like to jump to conclusions and the way we speak can make conclusions very easy to reach, regardless of their truth.
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Sep 25, 2014 23:50
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What award are you paid under? Are you full time, casual or permanent part time. If you are full time are you on a salary or a you paid hourly?
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Sep 26, 2014 02:31
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KillHour posted:I think the bigger point, though, is that regardless of your closeness to these women, when you're referring to them as girls to people you don't know, that gives off a completely different meaning than when you're speaking to one of them. This is exaggerated even further when you use the term "our girls." Even if it's not meant that way, it implies ownership. People against prostitution don't see themselves as being regressive and limiting sexual freedom; they see themselves as being protective and eliminating sexual exploitation. Are you actually a woman or sex worker? Or just some lameass internet white knight?
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Sep 26, 2014 05:28
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KillHour posted:I think the bigger point, though, is that regardless of your closeness to these women, when you're referring to them as girls to people you don't know, that gives off a completely different meaning than when you're speaking to one of them. What the gently caress does that matter? Ever heard a coach or people talk about a team as 'our boys'? quote:I'm not making the argument that it's improper to refer to people you work with however you want. I'm just saying that people like to jump to conclusions and the way we speak can make conclusions very easy to reach, regardless of their truth. First, that's a perfectly valid argument to make, there should be limits on how people address their employees/coworkers, but denying you're making that argument is stupid, when it's so obvious that's exactly what you're doing, which is victim blaming. "Oh, it's not my fault I'm against prostitution, it's just those poor innocent 30 year old girls I'm worried about, won't somebody please think of the children?"
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Sep 26, 2014 14:16
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Diminutives can be affectionate or condescending based on context. The existence of the former in no way justifies the latter. Arguing otherwise is stupid. Can we move past this stupid, stupid argument now?
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Sep 26, 2014 14:27
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MAKE NO BABBYS posted:Are you actually a woman or sex worker? Or just some lameass internet white knight? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem If I said yes to either of those questions, would it make a difference? I'm not white knighting anyone. Aggressive pricing posted:What the gently caress does that matter? Ever heard a coach or people talk about a team as 'our boys'? I like how you assumed that I am against prostitution just because I pointed out the mindset of people who are (and presented them as people instead of mustache twirling evildoers - God forbid!). That just makes my original point - people love to jump to conclusions. I'm not against prostitution at all, nor do I live in Australia, so I have absolutely no skin in this game. And although it would be a perfectly valid argument to say there should be limits on how you address coworkers (which would fall under harassment laws), it's not the one I'm making. My point was that the words you use in public can be taken by someone to mean something you never said because they assign a different meaning to the word than you do. By doing so, you strengthen their argument in their mind. Pointing this out is not attacking someone; it's helping them defend their position. You can't win an argument if you don't understand the mindset of the people you're arguing with. Edit: Forgot to say - Thanks for posting this thread, Poopy. It's very interesting hearing about an industry that's so taboo where I am. KillHour fucked around with this message at 16:03 on Sep 26, 2014 |
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Sep 26, 2014 14:40
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KillHour posted:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem Awww, that's really cute, someone just took their intro to argumentation class. The context infers affection, not condescension. Women and sex workers don't need you to white knight them against the evils of familiarity with coworkers.
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Sep 26, 2014 17:51
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KillHour posted:My point was that the words you use in public can be taken by someone to mean something you never said because they assign a different meaning to the word than you do. By doing so, you strengthen their argument in their mind. Saying a group shouldn't use words they choose to use to describe themselves because it'll strengthen their opponents is victim blaming. It's like saying black people shouldn't say friend of the family because it'll make racists more racist or women shouldn't dress provocatively because men will rape them. Who cares what's in the minds of people like that? It's probably all bullshit anyway. e: the thing to do is try to change their attitude, not pussy foot around their senseless sensibilities
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Sep 26, 2014 18:23
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Big Willy Style posted:What award are you paid under? Are you full time, casual or permanent part time. If you are full time are you on a salary or a you paid hourly? If you don't mind me asking, how does your pay compare to a typical salary where you live? How about the workers'? Edit: You mentioned earlier that condoms are required for oral - what would you do if the customer requesting oral was a woman? Does that happen? KillHour fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Sep 26, 2014 |
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Sep 26, 2014 18:25
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