|
WWE network did an episode on Bret Hart, and focused a significant portion of it on the Montreal Screwjob. Link Big Dave recently posted his response to what he says is quote:I saw the Monday Night War episode on Bret Hart that aired on 9/16 just because I wanted to see how the thing was portrayed. The funny thing is the real story is far more interesting than the version portrayed. They wanted to portray it simply as Bret Hart was leaving and refused to do the job on the way out, and Vince did what he had to do. In time, that simplistic version has taken over as the reality, since it’s easy to digest and paints McMahon as completely in the right. Other resources on the topic - Greatest Rivalries: Shawn vs Bret Wrestling with Shadows Wikipedia page
|
# ? Sep 18, 2014 18:44 |
|
|
# ? May 2, 2024 22:03 |
|
Tons of interesting stuff in this article by Big Dave So, if Bret had a contract extension that would have given him enough dates to get him through the next PPV, why did he say his dates were all used up in the Greatest Rivalries DVD? Is Dave wrong, or is Bret in on the WWE whitewashing of the incident? I strongly disagree with Dave on the point that it's dishonest to suggest that Bret could have shown up on Nitro with the belt. Thinking that Bischoff would not have had the title on Nitro because he might have gotten sued is pretty dumb. Why couldn't he? Bischoff obviously did not give a gently caress at that point, and he could have easily done whatever he wanted to do, as long as Bret agreed. Vince fearing that is pretty reasonable, IMO. Dave was pretty hard on Heyman in this article, but I don't remember Heyman saying anything controversial in it at all. I remember him saying a version of 'I'd screw a guy if it came down to it'.
|
# ? Sep 18, 2014 18:55 |
|
The article was a good read but I still think the entire thing was a wrestling storyline from the get go, and everyone is in on it. I don't think it's a real thing or that anyone was actually screwed but maybe wrestling has hosed up my ability to believe in anything.
|
# ? Sep 18, 2014 19:03 |
|
81sidewinder posted:Tons of interesting stuff in this article by Big Dave Bret's memory is probably just bad, all of the evidence from the period including Bret's own notes state he had more dates left. As for Bischoff, he definitely gave a gently caress at that point. He didn't break his agreement with Vince before Survivor Series, a decision he would not have made if he didn't give a gently caress. Survivor Series 97 ended up doing a good buyrate for the WWF in 97 and if Bischoff was in "doesn't give a gently caress mode" he would have revealed Bret was leaving the WWF to come to WCW on Nitro to try and ruin it. Then he didn't book Bret until after his WWF contract ended even though they had a clear breach and he could have pushed for Bret to debut immediately. On top of this, WCW did not gently caress around after past lawsuits were filed. To think that now they would risk losing a lawsuit to Vince plus another lawsuit that would be filed on top of it flies in the face of what WCW was doing at that time. It wasn't going to happen and it probably wasn't even on Vince's list of reasons for doing it at the time. Eat My Fuc posted:The article was a good read but I still think the entire thing was a wrestling storyline from the get go, and everyone is in on it. I don't think it's a real thing or that anyone was actually screwed but maybe wrestling has hosed up my ability to believe in anything. So under oath Bret and Vince kept kayfabe during the Owen Hart lawsuit? Really cool of Bret not to break it there in a lawsuit over his brother's death with a guy he hated. Weird that he'd risk the lawsuit for that though.
|
# ? Sep 18, 2014 19:06 |
|
MassRafTer posted:
I admit it sounds wacky as hell but it's just what I believe.
|
# ? Sep 18, 2014 19:14 |
|
yes, wrestling has totally hosed up your ability to believe in anything. if it was a wrestling storyline, bret would have come back to the WWF for the big revenge tour while he could still do something besides hit someone with a chair 30 times. I mean, the accident is to blame, sure, but he probably would have come back before he'd had time to even have the accident. He also wouldn't have gone to their biggest competitor while he was the hottest commodity in wrestling. WCW did jack poo poo with him, but still. Endorph fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Sep 18, 2014 |
# ? Sep 18, 2014 19:31 |
|
The suggestion that it's a storyline (Doesn't Russo think it's a work?) just doesn't hold water. Literally no one benefits from it. It becomes the genesis for the Mr McMahon character eventually, but that doesn't come until later, and even when he does debut he's a different person entirely from what he ends up being. That was a purely unintended consequence though, which is what Meltzer alludes to. WWE love to whitewash though, so there's nothing new there. It just seems like they want to deliver a story that they could all agree on and decide that from now until the end of time that'll be the story of the screwjob. It is an interesting story though, even if it does eventually come down to ego. I can see why Bret wouldn't want to do the job in Canada, but ultimately Bret is a guy who just cares too much about the business. Michaels was Michaels. He was an rear end in a top hat at that time with a rampant ego that only got worse. Vince ends up in a weirdly impossible situation where he feels like he has to just do something. It's weird that I can still sympathise with him on that point. But when you're worried that someone might make a fool of you, and that you have two stars who simply won't agree - even when lawyers are involved - you can't help but get into panic mode.
|
# ? Sep 18, 2014 19:58 |
|
I will defend Bret to the death. In a business where promoters constantly gently caress over the talent, good for Bret for doing his best to make one stick to his word and the contract they agreed on. It's the same reason why I love the fact that Brock doesn't bend over and take Vince's crap. Undercard guys can't stick up for themselves for fear of losing their jobs, so it's nice whenever a top guy does at least.
|
# ? Sep 18, 2014 20:07 |
|
...in the Year of Our Lord, Two Thousand and Fourteen, did someone just post that Montreal was a work?
|
# ? Sep 18, 2014 20:13 |
|
Gaz-L posted:...in the Year of Our Lord, Two Thousand and Fourteen, did someone just post that Montreal was a work? People still think Kevin Sullivan killed Chris Benoit. People are always just not going to believe that something happened the way it happened.
|
# ? Sep 18, 2014 20:32 |
|
MassRafTer posted:As for Bischoff, he definitely gave a gently caress at that point. He didn't break his agreement with Vince before Survivor Series, a decision he would not have made if he didn't give a gently caress. Survivor Series 97 ended up doing a good buyrate for the WWF in 97 and if Bischoff was in "doesn't give a gently caress mode" he would have revealed Bret was leaving the WWF to come to WCW on Nitro to try and ruin it. Then he didn't book Bret until after his WWF contract ended even though they had a clear breach and he could have pushed for Bret to debut immediately. On top of this, WCW did not gently caress around after past lawsuits were filed. To think that now they would risk losing a lawsuit to Vince plus another lawsuit that would be filed on top of it flies in the face of what WCW was doing at that time. It wasn't going to happen and it probably wasn't even on Vince's list of reasons for doing it at the time. You and Dave both seem to be taking a stance that does not make much sense to me. The fact that Bichoff ultimately did nothing is not proof that Vince couldn't have a legitimate fear that Bischoff might have done something. Or, am I missing something?
|
# ? Sep 18, 2014 20:41 |
|
81sidewinder posted:You and Dave both seem to be taking a stance that does not make much sense to me. The fact that Bichoff ultimately did nothing is not proof that Vince couldn't have a legitimate fear that Bischoff might have done something. Or, am I missing something? After the Madusa incident, WCW were not going to do a drat thing with the belt.
|
# ? Sep 18, 2014 20:49 |
|
It was a work you marks.
|
# ? Sep 18, 2014 20:56 |
|
Eat My Fuc posted:I admit it sounds wacky as hell but it's just what I believe. And steel doesn't melt at that temperature!
|
# ? Sep 18, 2014 21:01 |
|
I still don't know they they didn't just turn Survivor Series into a 3 or 4- way match and have Bret get pinned early by Undertaker or Shamrock if they were going to do that at the next PPV anyway. Was he seriously that opposed to losing in Montreal, or just trying to do anything to not have Shawn win the belt there whether Bret was pinned or not?
|
# ? Sep 18, 2014 21:05 |
|
DrVenkman posted:People still think Kevin Sullivan killed Chris Benoit. People are always just not going to believe that something happened the way it happened. People believe the US government did 9/11. Dumb people will always believe things that are demonstrably untrue.
|
# ? Sep 18, 2014 21:19 |
|
Bigass Moth posted:I still don't know they they didn't just turn Survivor Series into a 3 or 4- way match and have Bret get pinned early by Undertaker or Shamrock if they were going to do that at the next PPV anyway. Was he seriously that opposed to losing in Montreal, or just trying to do anything to not have Shawn win the belt there whether Bret was pinned or not? I think by that point Bret felt really strongly about losing in Canada. Maybe he felt that part of his appeal to WCW would be that he is a draw in Canada, that he could help them in that market. He didn't want to risk tarnishing his image to help some guys he felt were trying to gently caress him over. It sounds like everyone involved was just digging in their heels, a reasonable compromise wasn't really in the cards.
|
# ? Sep 18, 2014 21:28 |
|
Bigass Moth posted:I still don't know they they didn't just turn Survivor Series into a 3 or 4- way match and have Bret get pinned early by Undertaker or Shamrock if they were going to do that at the next PPV anyway. Was he seriously that opposed to losing in Montreal, or just trying to do anything to not have Shawn win the belt there whether Bret was pinned or not? He didn't want to drop it in Montreal at all (He wanted to come in and go out champion) but was originally happy to do the job to Shawn afterwards. I think after Shawn had said that he would never do a job for Bret then he refused to ever job for him in return, basically making a stalemate. For whatever reason Vince saw Survivor Series as the end of the road for Bret, even though there was more events planned. I'm not quite sure why he was so adamant on it being there and not at the next PPV.
|
# ? Sep 18, 2014 21:30 |
Let it not be forgotten that Bret was less than amused over the stuff involving the Canadian flag in the build up to the match.
|
|
# ? Sep 18, 2014 21:31 |
|
The WWE Doc makes it look like Bret was no longer a draw for WWE. Is this true or not?
|
# ? Sep 18, 2014 21:45 |
|
Michaels was popular and Austin was definitely on the rise, but Bret was arguably still the biggest star they had.
|
# ? Sep 18, 2014 21:48 |
|
Bigass Moth posted:I still don't know they they didn't just turn Survivor Series into a 3 or 4- way match and have Bret get pinned early by Undertaker or Shamrock if they were going to do that at the next PPV anyway. Was he seriously that opposed to losing in Montreal, or just trying to do anything to not have Shawn win the belt there whether Bret was pinned or not? He did not want to lose in Montreal because he had become a huge star throughout Canada and wasn't going to risk that. 81sidewinder posted:You and Dave both seem to be taking a stance that does not make much sense to me. The fact that Bichoff ultimately did nothing is not proof that Vince couldn't have a legitimate fear that Bischoff might have done something. Or, am I missing something? Why would there be a legitimate fear that someone who could not legally appear on a show would appear on a show? It's silly. Bret wasn't going to be on Nitro until the middle of December and thus the belt couldn't be on Nitro either. It's hard to believe with some of the stupid stuff WCW did but in this case Bischoff couldn't do it, Bret didn't want to do it and there was no reason to do it. Even if you believe Bischoff wanted to do it, you'd have to believe that everything about Bret's attitude toward doing business the right way is a lie for it to even be a possibility. Bischoff couldn't and Bret didn't want to. Beyond that it never appears as a real possibility when you look at the actual timeline. A screwjob in Montreal isn't on the table until HHH gets Shawn to nix doing the job to Bret. Vince wasn't worried about Bret being on Nitro he was worried about figuring out a finish that would work in an increasingly impossible situation. If it was something Vince was worried about the timeline would be different.
|
# ? Sep 18, 2014 21:52 |
|
Man that shot in the doc of Bret looking lost and uncomfortable on Nitro right up in the camera with Hogan is pretty sad.
|
# ? Sep 18, 2014 21:52 |
|
I watched the episode and what I'm most surprised by is there was no mention at all of the Hart/Austin feud. Like not even in passing did they talk about it and they even had a little part about how Austin was the guy WWF was moving toward. It's like they went out of the way to avoid showing any of it. I guess they're saving the stuff for when they have an episode about Austin but I think that feud was a huge part of Hart's career.
|
# ? Sep 18, 2014 21:54 |
|
Eat My Fuc posted:The WWE Doc makes it look like Bret was no longer a draw for WWE. Is this true or not? He was a draw, but he was going to be eclipsed soon enough. Michaels and Austin represented the future of the company and Vince wasn't blind to that. They had attitude before the attitude era started and the more time that went on the more Bret looked out of place. Even when they toy with making him heel he came off as sort of petulant and whiny. He was always too serious to be anything other than he was: He was always the Hitman. You're not going to repackage him. That's one of the many reasons why he totally floundered in WCW.
|
# ? Sep 18, 2014 22:04 |
|
Bret Hart was an awesome heel It's some of my favourite work of his career. I would love to have seen what he would have become if he didn't go to WCW. WCW was such a lovely end to his career, they had zero clue or desire to do anything worthwhile with him.
|
# ? Sep 18, 2014 22:06 |
|
triplexpac posted:Bret Hart was an awesome heel It's some of my favourite work of his career. I'm conflicted on it. I think it was just poorly handled more than anything and while I think Bret did fine as a heel, he didn't work as a heel for the crowd. I think if he and Shawn got past their differences (Which they eventually would've after Michael's long hiatus) then they would've had some astounding matches. Hell, he would've had great ones with Kurt Angle too. I have a feeling though that Bret wouldn't have survived the Attitude Era. Ultimately, that's the tragedy of Bret's career, it's that we were robbed of some classic matches while he just squandered himself away in WCW doing nothing and looking awkward as gently caress. I know Heenan hated it there, but it took a little while for the rot to set it. Bret had a "What am I doing?" look right from the start.
|
# ? Sep 18, 2014 22:13 |
|
Why didn't Vince just change the Survivor Series match to Bret vs Some Other Dude Besides Shawn and have Bret lose the belt on Raw or something? Also, why is it important that HHH was so invested in the whole situation? Did he already have any political leverage at that point? And lastly, why did WCW not care about Bret / why did they want him at such a high price and not do anything with him?
|
# ? Sep 19, 2014 03:25 |
|
omgomgomg posted:Why didn't Vince just change the Survivor Series match to Bret vs Some Other Dude Besides Shawn and have Bret lose the belt on Raw or something? SurSer was the last night Bret was under contract to WWF, Vince had to get it the belt off him that night. He could have shown up the next night and just tossed the belt in the loving trash live in Nitro. Wow, were you even watching the episode WWF showed?
|
# ? Sep 19, 2014 03:34 |
omgomgomg posted:Also, why is it important that HHH was so invested in the whole situation? Did he already have any political leverage at that point? HHH was booked as Shawns buddy and partner, the better exposure that Shawn got the better position HHH was in. At the time this was the biggest push he had had in any company, he was working the occasional main events and was a minor but featured player. It wasn't so much that he was looking out for his buddy, more that he knew which way his bread was buttered, and as long as Shawn was in the spotlight some of that light would fall on him. He ended up launching his career as a result of this, springboarding off Shawn's loss at mania (during which again he got a huge amount of exposure in the build). If Shawn was hurt, he was hurt. quote:And lastly, why did WCW not care about Bret / why did they want him at such a high price and not do anything with him? Politics. Bischoff wanted more stars for when Thunder was launched. The established main eventers in WCW (mostly Hogan and Nash) didn't want to give up their spot or even just want to share it with anyone else. Bret was a threat, so he got marginalised and out played. The money match after Sting/Hogan was Bret Hogan, something no one had put on before and Hogan did everything in his power to avoid it happening. Eventually Bret became just another guy.
|
|
# ? Sep 19, 2014 03:57 |
|
omgomgomg posted:Why didn't Vince just change the Survivor Series match to Bret vs Some Other Dude Besides Shawn and have Bret lose the belt on Raw or something? Shawn didn't refuse to job until very late in the game. Changing your PPV main event in the days before a show is pretty much death for your buyrate and the WWF had just gotten back to breakeven. As for HHH he was important because Shawn was important and because Vince always thought highly of him. He's a super smart guy and knew how to insert himself into every situation.
|
# ? Sep 19, 2014 04:00 |
|
The worst thing to come out of the Screwjob was WWE/WCW rehashing it in approximately 600 story-lines over the years.
|
# ? Sep 19, 2014 04:07 |
|
omgomgomg posted:And lastly, why did WCW not care about Bret / why did they want him at such a high price and not do anything with him? Politics, timing, injuries. Bret was never really in the title hunt until the end of '99 (he had been lingering in the midcard and chasing after the TV title and US title). Initially it was because of Sting, and then Goldberg really picked up steam and basically between Hogan, Sting, and Goldberg, shut Bret out for '98. When he finally wins the title at the end of '99, he ends up suffering career-ending concussions at Starrcade, and vacates the titles a month later. He did end up with like a tag championship, 2 or 3 US titles, 2 world titles, and a TV title over 2 years. It wasn't totally horrible, but it isn't what you hire your competition's #1 for 2 million a year.
|
# ? Sep 19, 2014 04:34 |
|
Skinty McEdger posted:HHH was booked as Shawns buddy and partner, the better exposure that Shawn got the better position HHH was in. At the time this was the biggest push he had had in any company, he was working the occasional main events and was a minor but featured player. It wasn't so much that he was looking out for his buddy, more that he knew which way his bread was buttered, and as long as Shawn was in the spotlight some of that light would fall on him. He ended up launching his career as a result of this, springboarding off Shawn's loss at mania (during which again he got a huge amount of exposure in the build). If Shawn was hurt, he was hurt. The more time goes on and the more that gets revealed it's pretty obvious that a WCW that had never signed Hogan would probably still exist today. Hogan killed that company all the way up into the Russo days.
|
# ? Sep 19, 2014 04:47 |
The Montreal Screwjob would be a pretty good name for one of this apartment wrestling things. But I honestly think what WCW did (or didn't do) with Brett was way worse than the screwjob itself. If you had competent people running that company they could have blown up big time bringing him in ASAP and pushing him to the moon but instead...welp.
|
|
# ? Sep 19, 2014 05:14 |
|
OldTennisCourt posted:The worst thing to come out of the Screwjob was WWE/WCW rehashing it in approximately 600 story-lines over the years. Does that figure include the number of times TNA has done it as well?
|
# ? Sep 19, 2014 05:47 |
|
It's also worth noting that this was back in the day where: 1: Survivor Series was still considered one of the Big 4 PPVs, and therefore required a big main event, heavily promoted ahead of time. Michaels/Hart was the biggest one they had at the time. 2: The idea of bait and switching a PPV main event, barring injury, wasn't in the playbook. As previously mentioned, WWF was just getting back on their financial feet after raising the prices of PPVs, and to advertise Hart/Michaels and then change it for something else could have led to a major backlash and the loss of revenue. Vince knew that a loss of revenue was already going to be in the cards with one of his top draws leaving and the goal was to minimize it as much as possible. 3: Having Austin win wasn't a realistic idea since he was coming back after having his neck broken at Summerslam, with Survivor Series being his first match back. The hope was that Austin would be healed up enough to get his title win at Wrestlemania and have the rocket strapped to his rear end then, but to put him over Bret and run the risk of re-injury wasn't acceptable. 4: With WCW and ECW viable options, dicking over talent was a bad idea since they had somewhere else to go. WCW was still in the lead and the nWo angle hadn't worn out its welcome yet with the build to Sting/Hogan, while ECW had finally gotten onto PPV and were making the jump from regional to national, and Japan was always an option. These days most guys have to jump when told to but back then if you didn't have faith that a promoter would do right by you, there was somewhere else to go work and maintain your lifestyle. These days they'd just change the main and throw in someone else or use their MITB plot device, but back then those options weren't available.
|
# ? Sep 19, 2014 05:57 |
|
I was always a huge Bret mark but even then I thought it was silly that he wouldn't lose in Canada. He was a huge babyface there and what builds heat better than the face losing and angling for a comeback? Obviously he wouldn't be coming back, but I don't think he would have lost drawing power when moving to WCW, and WWF could have built to Owen vs. Shawn in a redemption-style match, but I guess Owen was in the dog house for the Austin deal. Hypothetically what do you guys think would have happened to the wrestling landscape had Bret laid down clean for Shawn? WCW would have still wasted Bret, but would WWF have had the same success without the Mr. McMahon character's real heat from that event?
|
# ? Sep 19, 2014 13:42 |
|
Eat My Fuc posted:The more time goes on and the more that gets revealed it's pretty obvious that a WCW that had never signed Hogan would probably still exist today. Hogan killed that company all the way up into the Russo days. Hogan didn't help. But they were bleeding money. Nash and Hall pulled the same poo poo as he did and you can rest assured that whoever else jumped ship would've gone for the whole creative control thing. Hogan obviously didn't help, but for a time he did do good business for WCW. It was partly their refusal to advance anything (And also Hogan's for never wanting to take a loss) and too much of Bischoff et al enjoying their big party. I don't think it really mattered what WCW did. The moment Ted Turner got out of the game was the moment they probably would've been shut down anyway, which is what eventually happened. While he was happy to throw money at them they were happy to waste it. You can't pull that poo poo when you have people to answer to. There would've been a massive cull of production/talent and WWF would've been happy handpicking whoever was available. They MIGHT still have been around today, but in such a diminished role that they may as well not exist.
|
# ? Sep 19, 2014 13:51 |
|
|
# ? May 2, 2024 22:03 |
|
Pretty much everything I've ever heard about Montreal is that the entire situation could have been a very simple thing. But literally everything that could stoke the fire DID. I mean disregard the persona's of the key players involved (McMahon, Hart and Michaels) The thing that always hits you with Montreal is hearing "they settled on X and then SOMEONE didn't like it and stoked the fire." Like they settled that Hart would drop it, then Michales rocked the boat, then they settled that Hart would keep it and drop it later, so Hunter rocks Michaels so he'll get it nixed. Like most things in life, you can never say 'It was this one thing' because it wasn't. It was a billion things over time that created a symphony of explosions that lead to what happened. There were always options open, always chances. But it depended on the not just the three men involved, but all of the men attached to those men, working like proper adults. Honestly? I'm both sad and happy that Montreal happened the way it did. I mean... the world we got afterwards wasn't that bad, and any other world is purely in the realm of fiction right now.
|
# ? Sep 19, 2014 14:04 |