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Zeitgueist posted:Yes, truly I am an awful person for being vocal bout people being racist shits. Please check your intelligence privilege, thank you
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Oct 16, 2014 21:34
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Slanderer posted:You might think that, being that you actually are one of the lunatic SJW boogeymen that #gamergate fears will escape the darkest dungeons of Tumblr and roam free once more.  I think there wasn't a gamer gate thread because the whole thing is like TMZ but instead of celebrities it is a few nobodies. It has also been discussed to death. Also discussions along these lines tend to end badly. My two cents would be to just open up the topic to that of misogyny. Although there is a GOP thread, too.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:34
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Monaghan posted:There is a depressingly common misogynist streak amongst the nerd communities. Like the "fake geek girl" poo poo. Misogyny is depressingly common among men period. The thing is these communities have been fairly highly male by % and insular for years and decades. Slanderer posted:Please check your intelligence privilege, thank you Slain by my own jargon, 
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Oct 16, 2014 21:35
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I just like being able to call myself a Social Justice Warrior now that it's become so meaningless. Let's be honest it's a pretty rad term.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:35
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Dystram posted:This whole thing is real dumb but it's worth noting that Anita Sarkeesian doesn't even like or play video games. Coming at an entertainment genre from the outside with the sole intent of criticizing it might the reason for all the hate. Granted, her haters are dumb angry nerds who somehow think that trolling and threatening someone will win people over or get Anita to go away, or something, but it'd be nice if people would stop lionizing her, and pretending that she's not basically full of it. The fact remains that regardless of what she's doing it doesn't deserve all the hate and threats she receives, which is in fact orders of magnitude more objectionable than anything good or bad she's done, which just further shows how poo poo the gamer community is being. People "lionizing" her is a complete non issue.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:36
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I remember hearing about how the creator of Depression Quest was getting all sorts of harassment way back. I thought it blew over though when everyone pointed out the accusations leveled against her were a heaping load of bullshit. Are you telling me this Gamergate poo poo is because of a bunch of misogynistic assholes couldn't admit they were wrong about the woman making the game? And that it's just continued to get worse from there with them doubling down on their bullshit? Jesus christ. This topic should exist just for that alone. When I was hearing of Gamergate I heard it in the context of "Gamergate am I right?" with someone making a jerking off expression with their hand. Which made me think it was just another socially maladjusted group of nerds doing something embarrassing. Not people using it as an excuse to make loving death threats on people. Archonex fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Oct 16, 2014 |
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Oct 16, 2014 21:37
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Dystram posted:This whole thing is real dumb but it's worth noting that Anita Sarkeesian doesn't even like or play video games. Coming at an entertainment genre from the outside with the sole intent of criticizing it might the reason for all the hate. Granted, her haters are dumb angry nerds who somehow think that trolling and threatening someone will win people over or get Anita to go away, or something, but it'd be nice if people would stop lionizing her, and pretending that she's not basically full of it. It doesn't really matter whether or not she likes or plays them. She makes good, basic points with the disclaimer that you can enjoy something while still criticizing its more problematic elements. I'd hardly call her full of it. She's insightful and accessible. Archonex posted:I remember hearing about how the creator of Depression Quest was getting all sorts of harassment way back. I thought it blew over though when everyone pointed out the accusations leveled against her were a heaping load of bullshit. I think the death threat stuff only got intense in the past few weeks. I know they were happening when Anita started her campaign and all that, but drat, it feels like there's a threat on someone every week or so.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:37
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Dystram posted:This whole thing is real dumb but it's worth noting that Anita Sarkeesian doesn't even like or play video games. Coming at an entertainment genre from the outside with the sole intent of criticizing it might the reason for all the hate. I might understand this if she was bashing gaming as a whole, but she has specific criticisms that don't depend on her personal feelings about games. If someone who hated Mexican food wrote a critique on the nutritional value of certain dishes, their opinion on the food as a whole doesn't discredit the nutritional criticism.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:38
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Dystram posted:This whole thing is real dumb but it's worth noting that Anita Sarkeesian doesn't even like or play video games. Coming at an entertainment genre from the outside with the sole intent of criticizing it might the reason for all the hate. Granted, her haters are dumb angry nerds who somehow think that trolling and threatening someone will win people over or get Anita to go away, or something, but it'd be nice if people would stop lionizing her, and pretending that she's not basically full of it. She's done a pretty decent, if basic, video series on problems in video games. I don't think anyone thinks she's video game or feminist jesus, they just like what she's doing. Who gives a gently caress if she's not hugely into gaming? I am a gamer, have been for years, and I'm not really finding much wrong in her videos. Dr. Arbitrary posted:I might understand this if she was bashing gaming as a whole, but she has specific criticisms that don't depend on her personal feelings about games. It's kind of a variation on the "not a real geek girl". It might make more sense if she was like "well this fighting game isn't balanced, AND it's misogynist" but she's pretty much doing the latter.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:39
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Beartaco posted:I just like being able to call myself a Social Justice Warrior now that it's become so meaningless. Let's be honest it's a pretty rad term. I picture the power rangers beating up the putty patrol. Only the putty patrol has fedoras and tri-corner hats.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:40
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Dystram posted:This whole thing is real dumb but it's worth noting that Anita Sarkeesian doesn't even like or play video games. Coming at an entertainment genre from the outside with the sole intent of criticizing it might the reason for all the hate. Granted, her haters are dumb angry nerds who somehow think that trolling and threatening someone will win people over or get Anita to go away, or something, but it'd be nice if people would stop lionizing her, and pretending that she's not basically full of it. Sarkeesian's content is honestly extremely frustrating to critique because it has the academic depth of a puddle of water, but you can't help but feel like an rear end in a top hat criticizing her methods when there's a howling horde psychopaths calling her the literal worst etc. And of course, this makes actually having a dialogue about the perceived shortcomings of her work literally impossible. that said a university inviting someone of her level of rigor to speak is pretty lol
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Oct 16, 2014 21:40
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Iron Twinkie posted:I picture the power rangers beating up the putty patrol. Only the putty patrol has fedoras and tri-corner hats. I'd kickstart this, no doubt.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:40
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The only thing objectionable about Sarkeesian is how much money she managed to generate for such basic loving insights and commentary. It's like Sociology 98: Intro to Sociology level stuff. Pre-entry level. The only people who have any right to be upset with her are the 'SJW' side of the debate. And it should just be mild annoyance and jealousy, really. Of course that's moot, because the response to her has proven her point and then some far more eloquently than she ever could have.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:41
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Dystram posted:This whole thing is real dumb but it's worth noting that Anita Sarkeesian doesn't even like or play video games. Coming at an entertainment genre from the outside with the sole intent of criticizing it might the reason for all the hate. Granted, her haters are dumb angry nerds who somehow think that trolling and threatening someone will win people over or get Anita to go away, or something, but it'd be nice if people would stop lionizing her, and pretending that she's not basically full of it. Whoa get out, of here .misogynist. don't you know misogynists also tried to smear her with fraud accusations? For reals I'm not sure why she spent any effort on labels instead of just making the commentary. Her associating herself with gamers just associates herself with tedious assholes.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:41
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Dystram posted:This whole thing is real dumb but it's worth noting that Anita Sarkeesian doesn't even like or play video games. Coming at an entertainment genre from the outside with the sole intent of criticizing it might the reason for all the hate. Granted, her haters are dumb angry nerds who somehow think that trolling and threatening someone will win people over or get Anita to go away, or something, but it'd be nice if people would stop lionizing her, and pretending that she's not basically full of it. Saying that "only hardcore gam3rz" can criticize games is ludicrous, and the argument only seems to be made to validate the claim (or, at the very least, the unspoken but deep-seated fear) that Anita and ladies like her want to DESTROY video games. Besides, given her bland, freshman-level critique of video games means that she provides, a deep understanding of video games is completely unnecessary. One thing I have seen a lot of is multiple sides calling her videos stypid, but (accidentally) for completely opposed reasons. IE, anyone who has ever read a book will see that her arguments are obvious, lacking in nuance, but not really wrong in any appreciable sense. Others will say she's dumb because they refuse to accept or understand her hilariously basic arguments.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:41
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Zeitgueist posted:I like how this is a discussion on Twitter rather than the rampant misogyny and harassment that occurs in the video game community. This is really the issue. Really it's the same problem that exists in every nerd hobby-- comics, tabletop games, tech, ect. The community started as something for a bunch of middle-class white nerdy guys. So while not all of them are a mess, it provided a safe space for the kind of backward shits that are causing the issues here. Now that these spaces are becoming more diverse, these guys can see their time is over. Also, don't forget that the things that started this issue was a bunch of men policing the sexuality of a woman. This isn't 16 year olds hurling threats at each other. This a concerted attempt to own a woman's sexuality and punish her for not sticking with the sad sack POS that drug all this up.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:42
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A big flaming stink posted:Sarkeesian's content is honestly extremely frustrating to critique because it has the academic depth of a puddle of water, but you can't help but feel like an rear end in a top hat criticizing her methods when there's a howling horde psychopaths calling her the literal worst etc. And of course, this makes actually dialogue about the perceived shortcomings of her work literally impossible. Why don't you make those criticism here? My issue with her videos has been that they're a bit basic and 101-level but I understand that was her goal.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:42
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UnoriginalMind posted:It doesn't really matter whether or not she likes or plays them. She makes good, basic points with the disclaimer that you can enjoy something while still criticizing its more problematic elements. I'd hardly call her full of it. She's insightful and accessible. It actually started all the way back with Depression Quest. I remember the creator got a ton of threats. Which the OP covered. However since the focus shifted off of Depression Quest to Gamergate I haven't met too many people (Though admittedly the ones who did thought the Gamergate thing is ridiculous. Though there's always that one creepy guy.  ) who even know this poo poo is still going. Hell, I pride myself on being extremely up to date with industry news and I didn't even know this was actually this big of a thing. The thread really should exist just for that alone. I didn't even know that these people were still doing this crap until I read it. I imagine there's a fair number of people who are looking at "Gamergate" and figure it's the usual publisher dickery or some other similar thing. Archonex fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Oct 16, 2014 |
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Oct 16, 2014 21:42
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:Of course that's moot, because the response to her has proven her point and then some far more eloquently than she ever could have. Yeah, pretty much.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:44
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A big flaming stink posted:Sarkeesian's content is honestly extremely frustrating to critique because it has the academic depth of a puddle of water, but you can't help but feel like an rear end in a top hat criticizing her methods when there's a howling horde psychopaths calling her the literal worst etc. And of course, this makes actually having a dialogue about the perceived shortcomings of her work literally impossible. I agree with Zeitgueist. I'd be interested in hearing this. I don't watch too many of her videos because it seems too basic and I'm already acquainted with the subjects she's discussing, but your view would be welcomed.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:45
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A big flaming stink posted:Sarkeesian's content is honestly extremely frustrating to critique because it has the academic depth of a puddle of water, but you can't help but feel like an rear end in a top hat criticizing her methods when there's a howling horde psychopaths calling her the literal worst etc. And of course, this makes actually having a dialogue about the perceived shortcomings of her work literally impossible. The issue is that even if her critic is shallow...the gaming community wasn't doing the critiquing themselves. I look it is as a first stab that has its problems but the interesting part isn't really the critique but the reaction to it. If she got really deep into theory, I doubt most of her critics would be able to understand anything she is saying in the first place.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:46
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:The only thing objectionable about Sarkeesian is how much money she managed to generate for such basic loving insights and commentary. It's like Sociology 98: Intro to Sociology level stuff. Pre-entry level. The only people who have any right to be upset with her are the 'SJW' side of the debate. And it should just be mild annoyance and jealousy, really. This is another stupid argument---how the gently caress are people mad at her because people gave her too much money? Her funding goal was actually somewhat reasonable, but people just overfunded her by a hilarious amount. Do people really expect her to be like, "No, please, stop giving me additional piles of money with absolutely no strings attached".
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Oct 16, 2014 21:47
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Zeitgueist posted:She's done a pretty decent, if basic, video series on problems in video games. Well, I would say the issue is that she decided that games, in general, were sexist and misogynistic despite not really having played games. Her whole kickstarter was based around the idea that she was a gamer and found games to be, on the whole, sexist, so she was going to do some research - for which she needed a ton of cash to buy games and such (if she was a gamer, wouldn't she already own the sexist games she had played while formulating the opinion which spurned on her desire to do her research?) It's cool if you like her and like her videos. I'm just pointing out that it isn't too much to ask that those who criticize various types of entertainment then they should probably be aficionados of that particular type of entertainment. Otherwise you're just entering into any research you do with bias.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:47
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Ardennes posted:The issue is that even if her critic is shallow...the gaming community wasn't doing the critiquing themselves. I look it is as a first stab that has its problems but the interesting part isn't really the critique but the reaction to it. Yeah, gaming as a media and art forum is well into the phase where sociological criticism should occur, and really Sarkeesian was simply going after the low-hanging fruit. The more telling response is that instead of funding a better series of videos, the community seems to be more likely to fund attack videos on her.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:48
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Dystram posted:Well, I would say the issue is that she decided that games, in general, were sexist and misogynistic despite not really having played games. Her whole kickstarter was based around the idea that she was a gamer and found games to be, on the whole, sexist, so she was going to do some research - for which she needed a ton of cash to buy games and such (if she was a gamer, wouldn't she already own the sexist games she had played while formulating the opinion which spurned on her desire to do her research?) As someone who is not a fan of anime, I can definitively state that anime is bullshit garbage trash. I do not trust anime fans (ie, social deviants, drug users, and fascists) to be objective about this.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:50
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Slanderer posted:This is another stupid argument---how the gently caress are people mad at her because people gave her too much money? Her funding goal was actually somewhat reasonable, but people just overfunded her by a hilarious amount. Do people really expect her to be like, "No, please, stop giving me additional piles of money with absolutely no strings attached". For that much extra one might expect some more insightful commentary and more rigorous fact checking. The fact is she does make a few mistakes here and there. They are minor ones about minutia that doesn't loving matter, but idiot nerds can and do jump on them. I'm nto saying frothing rage or even genuine anger is justifiable, but I think a bit of annoyance at the discrepancy between her funding and her output is something that, while I don't experience, I can at least understand.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:50
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Dystram posted:Well, I would say the issue is that she decided that games, in general, were sexist and misogynistic despite not really having played games. Her whole kickstarter was based around the idea that she was a gamer and found games to be, on the whole, sexist, so she was going to do some research - for which she needed a ton of cash to buy games and such (if she was a gamer, wouldn't she already own the sexist games she had played while formulating the opinion which spurned on her desire to do her research?) I don't agree. She's doing a really basic analysis because it's obvious to someone even casually acquainted with the medium that it was full of stuff to point out. She's not doing an in-depth reviewed paper for a degree program, she's simply doing an high level basic shot of it. She's not tasting beers as a wine drinker, she's reviewing a media for sociological issues.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:50
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Slanderer posted:This is another stupid argument---how the gently caress are people mad at her because people gave her too much money? Her funding goal was actually somewhat reasonable, but people just overfunded her by a hilarious amount. Do people really expect her to be like, "No, please, stop giving me additional piles of money with absolutely no strings attached". Because they're using a flimsy excuse to attack a woman because they're misogynists. It's unfortunately pretty much that simple. They wouldn't be happy with anything but her refunding all the money and posting a public apology saying she was sorry, games aren't sexist, and she was just being a misandrist feminazi man hater and she's going to go kill herself now.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:51
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Slanderer posted:Saying that "only hardcore gam3rz" can criticize games is ludicrous, and the argument only seems to be made to validate the claim (or, at the very least, the unspoken but deep-seated fear) that Anita and ladies like her want to DESTROY video games. Besides, given her bland, freshman-level critique of video games means that she provides, a deep understanding of video games is completely unnecessary. I wasn't saying only hardcore gamers could criticize games. However, if you don't like or play games, and then you're going to basically attack them and cherry pick incidences of sexism, it's probably going to piss people off. I'm not sure why we don't expect that games critics shouldn't actually play games; I would expect a literary or film critic to actually be immersed in their respective medium.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:51
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Dystram posted:
not really, valid criticism of entertainment comes from the strength of someone's arguments, it isn't improved if an individual loves that particular form of entertainment. You can criticize Anita's arguments if you want, but you can't dock points from her because she's not a gamer.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:52
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Monaghan posted:not really, valid criticism of entertainment comes from the strength of someone's arguments, it isn't improved if an individual loves that particular form of entertainment. You have to know about the form of entertainment in order to actually form those arguments.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:53
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Dystram posted:Well, I would say the issue is that she decided that games, in general, were sexist and misogynistic despite not really having played games. Her whole kickstarter was based around the idea that she was a gamer and found games to be, on the whole, sexist, so she was going to do some research - for which she needed a ton of cash to buy games and such (if she was a gamer, wouldn't she already own the sexist games she had played while formulating the opinion which spurned on her desire to do her research?) I don't know if I'd ever agree with this position, but I'd give it more credence if her entire of body of work wasn't putting up a bunch of footage of horrible things happening to women in games and then asking people to think about how much of this footage exists. If she were ascribing cause or really getting into deconstruction or feminist theory or something it'd be one thing, but all she does is to make basic factual statements. Bias doesn't really play into it. Slanderer posted:As someone who is not a fan of anime, I can definitively state that anime is bullshit garbage trash. Nu-uh
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Oct 16, 2014 21:54
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Zeitgueist posted:Why don't you make those criticism here? My issue with her videos has been that they're a bit basic and 101-level but I understand that was her goal. uh lets see, next to no analysis of the role of the medium of videogames itself in shaping the message of the work failure to contextualize the aspects of misogyny in games with broader cultural movements, or even with trends in video game media itself related to the above, an almost tvtropes-esque manner of taking atomized elements of the work and making no attempt to relate them or analyze them next to no use of previous bodies of work regarding this subject in support of her conclusions (I'll admit this one is somewhat unfair considering the overall intent of her videos) an overall dearth of content and with regards to the socially charged nature of her subject, a complete lack of prescriptive steps to combat this overall trend that's about it off the top of my head. but in the time it took to write this message, about 300 people called her a man-hating oval office with about 50 of them implying that someone needs to put her in her place and about a dozen calling for her to be outright raped, so it appears i am the only one who actually wants this sort of discourse. 
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Oct 16, 2014 21:54
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:I don't know if I'd ever agree with this position, but I'd give it more credence if her entire of body of work wasn't putting up a bunch of footage of horrible things happening to women in games and then asking people to think about how much of this footage exists. If she were ascribing cause or really getting into deconstruction or feminist theory or something it'd be one thing, but all she does is to make basic factual statements. Bias doesn't really play into it. I guess my issue with it is that there's no real evidence that games are more sexist than other forms of entertainment. Society in general is sexist and misogynistic.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:55
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Zeitgueist posted:Yeah, gaming as a media and art forum is well into the phase where sociological criticism should occur, and really Sarkeesian was simply going after the low-hanging fruit. Yeah, if anything it is easy to expect the first attempts at criticism will be clumsy. I haven't really heard any response that really picked apart her arguments at that sort of level, since if anything those arguments could be even more aggressive about the overall analysis than she did. Dystram posted:Well, I would say the issue is that she decided that games, in general, were sexist and misogynistic despite not really having played games. Her whole kickstarter was based around the idea that she was a gamer and found games to be, on the whole, sexist, so she was going to do some research - for which she needed a ton of cash to buy games and such (if she was a gamer, wouldn't she already own the sexist games she had played while formulating the opinion which spurned on her desire to do her research?) In the end, a critic doesn't have to be a fan of a genre and she might be coming in with a bias, but ultimately I don't know if that is such a problem. She isn't a journalist and she didn't say she would give an unbiased or neutral criticism. Basically, it is up to people to listen to her arguments or not. You don't have to like literature to be a literary critic. Dystram posted:I guess my issue with it is that there's no real evidence that games are more sexist than other forms of entertainment. Society in general is sexist and misogynistic. Logically it doesn't have to be, since other entertainment has been critiqued for a while. It isn't like there hasn't been a feminist analysis of books, films or tv before. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 21:58 on Oct 16, 2014 |
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Oct 16, 2014 21:56
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A big flaming stink posted:uh lets see, Well, of course, you've got two camps and each side is basically firmly in their camp and just wants to cheerlead their side and hate on the other. No one really cares about the topic anymore.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:57
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Dystram posted:I wasn't saying only hardcore gamers could criticize games. However, if you don't like or play games, and then you're going to basically attack them and cherry pick incidences of sexism, it's probably going to piss people off. I'm not sure why we don't expect that games critics shouldn't actually play games; I would expect a literary or film critic to actually be immersed in their respective medium. If video games were, by and large, misogynistic, wouldn't you expect someone who has a greater-than-average literacy on such issues (the average is barely more than none) to be turned off by video games? Also, given that she is not doing a survey of all video games ever, but limiting her critiques to specific things from specific games (as far as I'm aware), being "immersed" in video games in not necessary. One could even make the argument that being an outsider gives a different and sometimes valuable perspective. For instance, instead of dismissing the long and shameful history of boob-bounce physics in fighting games as "just the way those kinds of games are", an outsider might (rightfully) point out that that stuff is weird as hell and somewhat sexist.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:57
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Ardennes posted:Yeah, if anything it is easy to expect the first attempts at criticism will be clumsy. I haven't really heard any response that really picked apart her arguments at that sort of level, since if anything those arguments could be even more aggressive about the overall analysis than she did. You absolutely have to know about literature and read literature to be a literary critic. Like I said, her kickstarter revolved around the idea that she was a gamer and wanted to point out sexism in games and gaming; then, later, we find out she doesn't like or play games.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:58
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Dystram posted:I guess my issue with it is that there's no real evidence that games are more sexist than other forms of entertainment. Society in general is sexist and misogynistic. If games are just as sexist and misogynistic as society at large then they are horrible sexist trash and should be criticized for it.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:58
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Dystram posted:I guess my issue with it is that there's no real evidence that games are more sexist than other forms of entertainment. Society in general is sexist and misogynistic. Was her goal ever to prove that it was more sexist? I guess I always got the impression she thought it was sexist and that the sexism wasn't really being acknowleged or engaged in a visible way, not that it was particularly worse than other media. I know that before this series, she had a series of videos doing roughly the same thing for everything from movies to cartoons. It's certainly not something I took away from the videos, but I'm not the end all be all of her positions, so I guess maybe she could think that.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:59
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