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Slanderer posted:If video games were, by and large, misogynistic, wouldn't you expect someone who has a greater-than-average literacy on such issues (the average is barely more than none) to be turned off by video games? Do you consider pornography sexist?
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Oct 16, 2014 22:00
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Dystram posted:Well, of course, you've got two camps and each side is basically firmly in their camp and just wants to cheerlead their side and hate on the other. No one really cares about the topic anymore. Again, that's bullshit. I like those criticisms, and generally agree with them. This "both sides are bad" stuff is simply South Park bullshit centrism. Only one side is behaving like shits and hating, and it's not the folks who support Sarkeesian. Dystram posted:Do you consider pornography sexist? Most, but not all, pornography is sexist.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:00
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Dystram posted:This whole thing is real dumb but it's worth noting that Anita Sarkeesian doesn't even like or play video games. Coming at an entertainment genre from the outside with the sole intent of criticizing it might the reason for all the hate. Granted, her haters are dumb angry nerds who somehow think that trolling and threatening someone will win people over or get Anita to go away, or something, but it'd be nice if people would stop lionizing her, and pretending that she's not basically full of it. Good. Video Games are for children
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Oct 16, 2014 22:00
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Dystram posted:I guess my issue with it is that there's no real evidence that games are more sexist than other forms of entertainment. Society in general is sexist and misogynistic. Did she actually make the argument that games were somehow worse in a specific, unique way? Or are you reacting to her criticizing a media genre that you happen to enjoy?
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Oct 16, 2014 22:00
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:Was her goal ever to prove that it was more sexist? I guess I always got the impression she thought it was sexist and that the sexism wasn't really being acknowleged or engaged in a visible way, not that it was particularly worse than other media. I know that before this series, she had a series of videos doing roughly the same thing for everything from movies to cartoons. It's certainly not something I took away from the videos, but I'm not the end all be all of her positions, so I guess maybe she could think that. The Kickstarter page posted:Help me create another successful video series that will contribute to and help amplify the existing conversations happening about female characters in games and maybe even get the attention of the gaming industry to start creating more interesting, engaging and complex female characters, that avoid the standard boring cliches.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:01
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Zeitgueist posted:Again, that's bullshit. I like those criticisms, and generally agree with them. I didn't say both sides are bad; I said, basically, both sides are just interested in hating on eachother and no one wants to discuss anything or any nuances. It's like Polygon vs. 4Chan; both are dumb as hell but for different reasons.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:02
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Dystram posted:You have to know about the form of entertainment in order to actually form those arguments. Oh yeah well if you didn't like the movie then why don't you go and make one better, smart guy
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Oct 16, 2014 22:02
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Dystram posted:You absolutely have to know about literature and read literature to be a literary critic. Actually you don't, someone should be able to pick up a piece of literature and analyze it without being well read. Also, I don't see the issue with her starting a kickstarter with a bias that she was open about. If anything as said above, you could make an argument than an outsider perspective if anything was needed. It doesn't invalidate her arguments either even if you think she had a "axe to grind."
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Oct 16, 2014 22:02
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Lemming posted:If games are just as sexist and misogynistic as society at large then they are horrible sexist trash and should be criticized for it. there's nothing to disagree with your statement, but where does saying "this thing is bad!" honestly get us? I mean there is an incredible amount of hay made over sexist trends in film, and even some of them have penetrated into mass culture (bechdel test, male gaze). e: Ardennes posted:Actually you don't, someone should be able to pick up a piece of literature and analyze it without being well read. What. I mean there's nothing literally preventing someone from picking up a book and doing babby's first literary analysis but it's going to be, at best, lacking in the specialized language needed to dissect the elements of the work and muddled and vague as a result, and at worst an utterly superficial or even outright farcical treatment of the work. A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Oct 16, 2014 |
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Oct 16, 2014 22:03
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Dystram posted:I didn't say both sides are bad; I said, basically, both sides are just interested in hating on eachother and no one wants to discuss anything or any nuances. It's like Polygon vs. 4Chan; both are dumb as hell but for different reasons. The people who are threatening to rape and kill women for saying what they think are objectively worse than the people who are saying that threatening to rape and kill women for saying what they think is wrong and bad. A big flaming stink posted:there's nothing to disagree with your statement, but where does saying "this thing is bad!" honestly get us? I mean there is an incredible amount of hay made over sexist trends in film, and even some of them have penetrated into mass culture (bechdel test, male gaze). It's what you have to do to start the conversation. A ton of this stuff people don't even notice because they've been exposed to it their whole life and never really thought about it beyond accepting that's just the way things are. It shouldn't be the last step, but if people have never even been faced with the idea that maybe games are sexist in this or that way, then how are they supposed to consider how things should change? Lemming fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Oct 16, 2014 |
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Oct 16, 2014 22:03
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Slanderer posted:Saying that "only hardcore gam3rz" can criticize games is ludicrous, and the argument only seems to be made to validate the claim (or, at the very least, the unspoken but deep-seated fear) that Anita and ladies like her want to DESTROY video games. Besides, given her bland, freshman-level critique of video games means that she provides, a deep understanding of video games is completely unnecessary. My only issue with her is that she raised ok premises but they built up into a conclusion that didn't make sense based on the provided evidence. For instance she objected to rape scenes because they were only included to be shocking( which is a good sign of bad writing) but she concluded that type of thing also normalizes rape. Those are kind of opposite. Her point that that topic should be treated with respect is just bad. Especially when the character was running around murdering people. She also videotapes her face which immediately puts her in the league of annoying youtubers.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:03
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Dystram posted:Do you consider pornography sexist? In many specific and blatant instances, yes. But not all of them, and moreover I can't make sweeping judgement of all porn ever, any more than I can say "every time a man has sex with a woman it is rape"* *an actual thing that has been said
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Oct 16, 2014 22:03
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Slanderer posted:Did she actually make the argument that games were somehow worse in a specific, unique way? Or are you reacting to her criticizing a media genre that you happen to enjoy? lol there's plenty about gaming to criticise. I don't take issue with her making videos or the videos themselves. I just take issue with her claiming to be a gamer and then, as it turns out, she doesn't even like games. Even with that, I mostly take issue with her fans having blinders on and not wanting to cop to the fact that maybe she's just a little fake.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:04
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Lemming posted:The people who are threatening to rape and kill women for saying what they think are objectively worse than the people who are saying that threatening to rape and kill women for saying what they think is wrong and bad. I didn't say they weren't.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:05
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Slanderer posted:*an actual thing that has been said By idiots who misunderstood MacKinnon, unless you're trying to say that's the actual quote, in which case you're wrong.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:06
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A big flaming stink posted:there's nothing to disagree with your statement, but where does saying "this thing is bad!" honestly get us? I mean there is an incredible amount of hay made over sexist trends in film, and even some of them have penetrated into mass culture (bechdel test, male gaze). So are you criticizing complaints about sexism in film? Where's your essay on why the Bechdel test is stupid poo poo for idiots?
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Oct 16, 2014 22:06
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Dystram posted:I didn't say both sides are bad; I said, basically, both sides are just interested in hating on eachother and no one wants to discuss anything or any nuances. It's like Polygon vs. 4Chan; both are dumb as hell but for different reasons. No, not really. One side is screaming about Sarkeesian and any analysis of their video games, and the other is either "right on, go girl" or "true, but the analysis lacks depth". Only one side is stupid here.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:07
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Dystram posted:I guess my issue with it is that there's no real evidence that games are more sexist than other forms of entertainment. Society in general is sexist and misogynistic. This is getting a bit off topic, but there is a significant argument that games do tend to be really sexist from a narrative and aesthetics perspective. Or do you mean to tell me that poo poo like this isn't a thing that keeps getting released?  Note that these games come with a setting that lets you alter the jiggle of their breasts and buttocks. And include unlockable softcore stripper shows (With a variety of increasingly skimpy clothing to put the virtual women in.) for each of the characters. The characters themselves are basically virtual sex objects for the enjoyment of some lonely/adolescent gamer nerd. And as a side note to date I don't think there's been any kind of male centric version of that series either. And all that is before you get into the roles that women tend to play in games. Though there are a number of exceptions, a lot of games are way behind on where other forms of media are when it comes to presentation of women as something other than as an obtainable reward, eye candy, or a damsel or goal to be rescued or achieved. Archonex fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Oct 16, 2014 |
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Oct 16, 2014 22:07
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Dystram posted:I just take issue with her claiming to be a gamer and then, as it turns out, she doesn't even like games. Even with that, I mostly take issue with her fans having blinders on and not wanting to cop to the fact that maybe she's just a little fake. She is a gamer though. I'm a gamer. Anyone who plays video games and lets them into their heart is a True Gamer, imo.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:08
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Dystram posted:lol there's plenty about gaming to criticise. I don't take issue with her making videos or the videos themselves. That wasn't the question. You said: Dystram posted:I guess my issue with it is that there's no real evidence that games are more sexist than other forms of entertainment. Society in general is sexist and misogynistic. What does this have to do with her videos? You're either implicitly making the argument that she said that games are more sexist, or you're saying that games are sexist, but that it's bad to point that out.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:09
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Dystram posted:I didn't say they weren't. You said "both sides are just interested in hating on eachother and no one wants to discuss anything or any nuances" which is false equivocation to an incredible degree. This implies that both sides are being dumb in the same way and degree, when really that's like saying that if someone punches you in the face, calling them a loving rear end in a top hat means you are "just interesting in hating on [them]."
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Oct 16, 2014 22:09
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Dreylad posted:She is a gamer though. I'm a gamer. Anyone who plays video games and lets them into their heart is a True Gamer, imo. If everyone is a gamer, then...no one is. Wow i guess gamers really are dead.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:09
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Dreylad posted:She is a gamer though. I'm a gamer. Anyone who plays video games and lets them into their heart is a True Gamer, imo. This is also true.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:09
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icantfindaname posted:So are you criticizing complaints about sexism in film? Where's your essay on why the Bechdel test is stupid poo poo for idiots? how on earth did you get that from my statements? I'm saying we already have a great deal of interesting analysis of sexism in film, a good deal of it even comprehensive to the general public. If film can do it certainly so can videogames.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:10
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All video game players are Gamers as long as they accept the truth of Video Games in their minds and believe in the power of video games to bring us together. Semper Games.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:11
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Slanderer posted:Also, given that she is not doing a survey of all video games ever, but limiting her critiques to specific things from specific games (as far as I'm aware), being "immersed" in video games in not necessary. One could even make the argument that being an outsider gives a different and sometimes valuable perspective. For instance, instead of dismissing the long and shameful history of boob-bounce physics in fighting games as "just the way those kinds of games are", an outsider might (rightfully) point out that that stuff is weird as hell and somewhat sexist. This is a really good point. If you're immersed in a certain culture for too long its flaws become invisible to you overtime because its status quo. Another thing I'd like to point out is that I'm a girl who plays video games extensively. If I made videos critiquing only the games that I've played, with an in depth academic analysis, I would be getting death and rape threats too. Thats not a suspicion, its a fact. Whatever's wrong with Anita's videos is trivial. The problem is the huge segment of mostly male gamers who would harass, threaten and a stalk a woman because she has the nerve to say sexism (anywhere but specifically in games) is a problem. And it is.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:12
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This thread is confusing. How did 'gamer' become an identity beyond consumption?
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Oct 16, 2014 22:14
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Dreylad posted:She is a gamer though. I'm a gamer. Anyone who plays video games and lets them into their heart is a True Gamer, imo. This is one of the biggest problems to the whiny, petulant, disgusting misogynists who are pushing this whole gamer gate thing. They cannot stand the thought that their precious identity is meaningless anymore and they will kick and scream and threaten to rape and murder because of it. It is sad and pathetic and deeply, deeply unhealthy to identify as a "gamer". If I had a son I would absolutely discourage him from getting wrapped up in video games and if I had a daughter I would do my very utmost to keep her away from boys who play them. Any man who identifies as a "gamer" past about the age of 15 is in some way stunted in the brain.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:14
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Why would you need to be a life long hardcore gamer to do the kind of analysis she is doing anyways? She isn't talking about whether or not the games are fun or hard. It's about the narrative and visual elements.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:15
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Well this the same community that wears "Otaku" as a badge of honor despite it's original context.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:16
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Otto von Ruthless posted:Why would you need to be a life long hardcore gamer to do the kind of analysis she is doing anyways? She isn't talking about whether or not the games are fun or hard. It's about the narrative and visual elements. And the video was 4 years ago, 4 years is plenty of time to play some games in your free time. Everything about #gamergate is really loving confusing to me.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:16
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Otto von Ruthless posted:Why would you need to be a life long hardcore gamer to do the kind of analysis she is doing anyways? She isn't talking about whether or not the games are fun or hard. It's about the narrative and visual elements. You don't. It's all a smokescreen. They're attacked a woman because they hate women and they're using flimsy excuses as cover.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:17
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Zeitgueist posted:By idiots who misunderstood MacKinnon, unless you're trying to say that's the actual quote, in which case you're wrong. Well, no, that was vaguely a reference to Dworkin, who had a habit of making arguments that were far-reaching, highly inflammatory, and easy to reframe in ways that seem insane to laymen. Sarkeesian, in contrast, makes pretty specific and inoffensive arguments* *unless you are a literal child, in which case she is saying some wild poo poo
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Oct 16, 2014 22:17
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My Imaginary GF posted:This thread is confusing. How did 'gamer' become an identity beyond consumption? There are a depressing number of incredible shallow douchebags lacking anything else with which to identify. Oddly enough, a ton of them seem to be massively insecure misogynists to boot!
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Oct 16, 2014 22:17
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Archonex posted:There's a significant argument that games do tend to be sexist from a narrative and aesthetics perspective. Or do you mean to tell me that poo poo like this isn't a thing that keeps getting released? Hell let's take this for an example. DOA beach volleyball is hilariously, pornographically sexist, but just calling it wank material for manchildren doesn't begin to properly analyze the sexism at play. This works manner of misogyny is wholly different from that of Duke Nukem Forever, and is intricately linked with Japanese sensibilities regarding femininity, especially Kawaii culture (which has had literal books written about). There's also the necessity for niche publishers (and xbox in japan is as niche as it gets) to cater extensively towards the otaku demographic, making this work's manner of sexism distinct from that of mainstream Japanese culture. Do you see how just calling something sexist and moving on does not remotely capture the factors at play? What happens when you encounter something with genuine nuance, like Bayonetta which has an extremely sexist veneer and aesthetic but also exhibits characteristics that are shockingly woman-centric and perhaps even "empowering." Like I said, there's alot of hay to be had. A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Oct 16, 2014 |
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Oct 16, 2014 22:18
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How are u posted:This is one of the biggest problems to the whiny, petulant, disgusting misogynists who are pushing this whole gamer gate thing. They cannot stand the thought that their precious identity is meaningless anymore and they will kick and scream and threaten to rape and murder because of it. This thread is going places, fast.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:18
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Archonex posted:This is getting a bit off topic, but there is a significant argument that games do tend to be sexist from a narrative and aesthetics perspective. Or do you mean to tell me that poo poo like this isn't a thing that keeps getting released? Good that you made this post because it shows the real complaint that the gamergate people have. Mostly complaint against the complaint you make here. They see Sarkeesian and her supporters as would-be censors who want to put an end to this type of game being created, and they are speaking out against that censorship effort as they perceive it.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:19
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Captain_Maclaine posted:There are a depressing number of incredible shallow douchebags lacking anything else with which to identify. Oddly enough, a ton of them seem to be massively insecure misogynists to boot! I'm more wondering what tools and methods are used to create a psychological impact which combines and reinforces consumption as an identity. Obviously, 'gamers' feel as if they are stakeholders in the gaming process: How?
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Oct 16, 2014 22:20
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Slanderer posted:Well, no, that was vaguely a reference to Dworkin, who had a habit of making arguments that were far-reaching, highly inflammatory, and easy to reframe in ways that seem insane to laymen. Well Dworkin didn't say it either, though. I think the problem is less with academic feminists making vague easily co-opted arguments and more misogynists trying really hard to pull stuff out of academic context to smear feminists.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:21
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My Imaginary GF posted:I'm more wondering what tools and methods are used to create a psychological impact which separates consumption from peer-approval. Video games for the most part encourage the consumption of more video games. When your average day consists of 6+ hours of playing video games, it's easy to form an identity around it, and the desire to defend it.
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