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Necc0 posted:I plan on appealing this when I get back from my current on-site because I don't think this is at all acceptable. Anyone have any pointers? Have another offer in hand. It changes the conversation from "I think I'm worth more money" to "another company thinks I'm worth more money".
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Apr 14, 2016 19:16
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I have an informal offer where they're just waiting for the workload to increase to justify bringing me on. It's via a friend of mine so I know it's solid and it's expected to open up sometime this summer. However I don't think an explicit threat is the way to do it. I've tried that route before and it ended terribly. Basically I'm just going to say, in so many words, 'I'd like you guys to really reconsider this' and make my case as to why they should. If they tell me to go-fish I will. I should point out that it's pretty blatant at this point and the only valid excuse is they genuinely can't afford it which if true is sad but not my problem. I've run point now on two projects with super high visibility. Like- made the quarterly investor call high. I'm now running point on a project that could significantly shift the company's bottom line and they're still, internally, calling me a 'junior' resource. That's bullshit imo. E: sorry for ranting Necc0 fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Apr 14, 2016 |
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Apr 14, 2016 19:19
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Necc0 posted:So how'd everyone do this year? I went in to my review fully expecting a promotion & raise but was told that money is tight and maybe things will be looking better next year. I've been taking on tons of extra responsibilities and became the go-to 'get poo poo done NOW' guy so I was really surprised that all I was given was a cost of living adjustment. That and I know my billing has been above targets for the entire time I've been here so even from a raw bean counting perspective I'm more than carrying my own weight by a huge margin. I'd love insights on this for the future. Because I really doubt I'll be able to replicate the promotion+25% that I got this year, and I'm getting restless because even with that I'm still drastically undercompensated compared to my peers whom I still deliver more code than, despite the huge amount of time I spend mentoring/advising them on difficult topics like 'how CSS selectors work' I also suspect that some of the folks above me are on the way out this year and that it's probably going to cause them to approach me to fill upwards, but I'd suspect without a promotion or compensation, and that's going to be a trigger condition for me to  - where I suspect I can't expect a sharply vertical trajectory to continue forever.
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Apr 14, 2016 22:33
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Necc0 posted:I'm now running point on a project that could significantly shift the company's bottom line and they're still, internally, calling me a 'junior' resource. That's bullshit imo. I've seen this before and it's a perceptual thing. You (presumably) came in as junior and that what you will be fixed at forever, at least in the minds of lazier management. At times of stress people fall back to the simplest animal brain judgement.
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Apr 15, 2016 19:33
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return0 posted:I've seen this before and it's a perceptual thing. You (presumably) came in as junior and that what you will be fixed at forever, at least in the minds of lazier management. At times of stress people fall back to the simplest animal brain judgement. I always run into this problem. I recently switched from a ~300 person enterprise company to a nonprofit after some pretty intense meetings about my disappointing salary. The switch to a nonprofit still resulted in a 30% raise. I have accepted the routine to causally interview at other places every few years in order to keep a pretty accurate gauge on my skills versus demand in my area and how much they're worth to other comparable companies.
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Apr 16, 2016 06:44
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My big problem is that by all other measures this company is fantastic to work for. I've worked for some really lovely places and had really lovely bosses who appeared like they'd be fantastic while interviewing. I've come to appreciate the value in not dreading life every morning you wake up and you can't put a dollar amount on that. Because of that I've already passed up offers that would have been slight increases in salary but I didn't think it'd be worth the risk of accidentally jumping back into a poo poo situation. Unfortunately that difference is starting to get pretty stark and ugh I just really don't want to leave this place 
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Apr 16, 2016 06:59
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Necc0 posted:My big problem is that by all other measures this company is fantastic to work for. I've worked for some really lovely places and had really lovely bosses who appeared like they'd be fantastic while interviewing. I've come to appreciate the value in not dreading life every morning you wake up and you can't put a dollar amount on that. Because of that I've already passed up offers that would have been slight increases in salary but I didn't think it'd be worth the risk of accidentally jumping back into a poo poo situation. Unfortunately that difference is starting to get pretty stark and ugh I just really don't want to leave this place Location, peers, type of work, and atmosphere are all incredibly important to me as well. It's mildly depressing when you finally do put a dollar amount on it or get a offer you can't refuse. And it still seems it's all because of the illogical behavior in human psychology.
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Apr 16, 2016 07:07
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Bognar posted:Have another offer in hand. It changes the conversation from "I think I'm worth more money" to "another company thinks I'm worth more money". You know, I accepted a counteroffer a few months ago and I've come to kind of regret it because the experience totally changed my relationship to my employer and they suddenly started changing all the aspects of the job that made me want to stay (like a lot of flexibility about telecommuting) due to paranoia about me trying to leave again/spite/I don't know. And I think probably they are plotting to be rid of me in the longer term. On the other hand, I've got a higher salary as a starting point for negotiations as I go looking for my next job so it's not a total disaster. Still, I'd say be careful.
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Apr 17, 2016 23:00
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I need some salary advice. I'm currently working at Company A as the sole web developer. I've been doing both design and development work, as well as SharePoint administration. I've been here almost 5 years and am making $64,500. I'm located in the Kansas City area. Recently a division of my company got sold to Company B, and with it went most of the websites I built as well as many employees. I wasn't one of them, but Company B is in great need of a designer/developer/SharePoint admin, and they've mentioned numerous times that they're interested in me. I love Company A and have no specific desire to leave, but I figure if Company B offers a big enough raise I'd be willing to switch. So my question is, how much should I ask for? I feel I could be making more than 64.5 given my experience and breadth of knowledge, so my first instinct is to ask for something like $85k. I have nothing to lose. But then again I have doubts that 85k is a reasonable amount. Is 85 laughably high for my position/skills/experience/location?
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Apr 29, 2016 17:12
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Shoot for a 25% increase (at least) when hopping jobs. So no, you're not that far off at all by asking that.
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Apr 29, 2016 17:16
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Necc0 posted:My big problem is that by all other measures this company is fantastic to work for. I've worked for some really lovely places and had really lovely bosses who appeared like they'd be fantastic while interviewing. I've come to appreciate the value in not dreading life every morning you wake up and you can't put a dollar amount on that. Because of that I've already passed up offers that would have been slight increases in salary but I didn't think it'd be worth the risk of accidentally jumping back into a poo poo situation. Unfortunately that difference is starting to get pretty stark and ugh I just really don't want to leave this place Update on my situation: Talking to other coworkers it looks like almost no one else got a raise OR a bonus while I pulled down 4% and got more bonus than I really should have. So it seemed like despite the fact this year didn't meet my expectations I was well ahead of the curve for this office. I went in to talk to my boss and he brought up the topic before I did, saying he understood what was up and that the reality is that we just had a lovely year and it really isn't in the budget. I believe him because we actually DID have a really poo poo year along with a round of layoffs back in November. That conversation was about five minutes followed by an hour & half of talking about the department's pipeline for the next year, how we were going to staff it, overall objectives, etc. He genuinely seemed to want my input on a broad range of topics and it was a really really good convo overall. We also spoke about this major project that I've been working on and how our client wants full-time on-site resources for the entire contract which will last for anywhere from 1-3 years. He asked if I'd be willing to volunteer relocating across the country to do this. So I think this is my opportunity to  make a deal Basically I see it like this: if they're willing to put me out in a 100% client-facing embedded scenario on their most lucrative contract it pretty much has to mean they at least have *some* faith in my abilities. Plus if I'm on the contract I'm guaranteed to be billing 100+% for several years. So I'm going to essentially tell them: 'if I'm going to be committing several years to this company, which I'm totally willing to do, I expect the company to likewise display an equal level of commitment to me.' Requiring that I get the raise I want before I make any plans to relocate. Since I want to actually stake out a career here I'm going to give them plenty of time to make a decision in good faith by making this request next week even though this contract isn't expected to be signed for a few months.If they say 'ok' then great. I've found a good company to nestle into for the long-haul. If they start hand-wringing or I notice that they try to staff someone else on the project that'll be my cue to start looking for an exit.
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Apr 29, 2016 17:51
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caiman posted:I need some salary advice. I'm currently working at Company A as the sole web developer. I've been doing both design and development work, as well as SharePoint administration. I've been here almost 5 years and am making $64,500. I'm located in the Kansas City area. Recently a division of my company got sold to Company B, and with it went most of the websites I built as well as many employees. I wasn't one of them, but Company B is in great need of a designer/developer/SharePoint admin, and they've mentioned numerous times that they're interested in me. I love Company A and have no specific desire to leave, but I figure if Company B offers a big enough raise I'd be willing to switch. So my question is, how much should I ask for? I feel I could be making more than 64.5 given my experience and breadth of knowledge, so my first instinct is to ask for something like $85k. I have nothing to lose. But then again I have doubts that 85k is a reasonable amount. Is 85 laughably high for my position/skills/experience/location? If they've been reaching out to you it can't hurt to open a conversation with them and be the first to ask them about compensation at some point. See if they'll give you a number first. If it's possible research the company on glassdoor to see what they typically pay so that if they refuse to answer the question you'll know how high to shoot. Also there's no 'correct' answer to what salary is unreasonably high or low or whatever. If they're willing to pay you $250k then that's what's reasonable.
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Apr 29, 2016 17:58
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caiman posted:I need some salary advice. I'm currently working at Company A as the sole web developer. I've been doing both design and development work, as well as SharePoint administration. I've been here almost 5 years and am making $64,500. I'm located in the Kansas City area. Recently a division of my company got sold to Company B, and with it went most of the websites I built as well as many employees. I wasn't one of them, but Company B is in great need of a designer/developer/SharePoint admin, and they've mentioned numerous times that they're interested in me. I love Company A and have no specific desire to leave, but I figure if Company B offers a big enough raise I'd be willing to switch. So my question is, how much should I ask for? I feel I could be making more than 64.5 given my experience and breadth of knowledge, so my first instinct is to ask for something like $85k. I have nothing to lose. But then again I have doubts that 85k is a reasonable amount. Is 85 laughably high for my position/skills/experience/location? To follow up, I asked for $85k, they offered $80k. I countered with $82.5k and they agreed.
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May 18, 2016 22:14
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Good job. Now do it again a year from now. 
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May 18, 2016 22:43
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Cuntpunch posted:I'd love insights on this for the future. Because I really doubt I'll be able to replicate the promotion+25% that I got this year, and I'm getting restless because even with that I'm still drastically undercompensated compared to my peers whom I still deliver more code than, despite the huge amount of time I spend mentoring/advising them on difficult topics like 'how CSS selectors work' You won't be able to replicate it, and chances are even if you get a promotion the increase won't be what you expect. The reason for this is that there is a certain gravitational effect on salaries. Even if you are out performing the average, managers seem to generally not want you to be a huge outlier in terms of salary even if you are with your skills and contribution. I had basically the same scenario at my last job. I got a 20%+ increase one year, and I was told it was not usual which I was fine with. In the next year I was promoted to manage the entire development team and the increase was around 4%. Each subsequent year the percentage dropped even as I got great review after great review. I actually ended up getting a strong offer and told my boss about it. There are various thoughts on this but I think how that situation goes depends heavily on the person on the other side. In my case, they offered to effectively match it although I could tell my boss was unhappy I had interviewed elsewhere and then told him about it, as though it was a ploy to get a higher salary. On the flip side in that situation I felt like if you can offer now to pay me 30% more, why did I have to go through all this work to get it? I debated a lot about it and in the end for a variety of reasons not all of which are monetary I moved on. One of those reasons was I thought my boss would not be able to get over the fact that I had interviewed elsewhere.
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May 19, 2016 19:56
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Dazzleberries posted:On the flip side in that situation I felt like if you can offer now to pay me 30% more, why did I have to go through all this work to get it? This is exactly how I see it. The only thing that changed between now and your last performance review is that you bothered to call them on it. That's not at all somewhere I'd want to work long term because it's a clear sign that they aren't negotiating in good faith. But then again, who is? 
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May 19, 2016 20:11
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Necc0 if you don't want to be seen as a junior anymore you need to poop on someone powerful. Trust Me
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May 19, 2016 23:12
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Dazzleberries posted:You won't be able to replicate it, and chances are even if you get a promotion the increase won't be what you expect. The reason for this is that there is a certain gravitational effect on salaries. Even if you are out performing the average, managers seem to generally not want you to be a huge outlier in terms of salary even if you are with your skills and contribution. I appreciate the thorough response as since I posted, it's pretty much come to what I expected: a lot of shake-ups. So on the one hand, I may have fresh management to make a case to - on the other it's pretty possible things go downhill or get uncomfortable. We'll see, I'm pretty certain I'll quickly be in a position of semi-official authority and such - and I'll probably be bargaining for cash this summer to at least bring me up to parity with the people I'll be overseeing
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May 19, 2016 23:33
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Dazzleberries posted:You won't be able to replicate it, and chances are even if you get a promotion the increase won't be what you expect. The reason for this is that there is a certain gravitational effect on salaries. Even if you are out performing the average, managers seem to generally not want you to be a huge outlier in terms of salary even if you are with your skills and contribution. I took the other road and after a few months I came to regret it because there was a lot of resentment and it started affecting the flexibility and other things I liked about the work. e: I posted almost this same thing on this very page but apparently suffer from amnesia. RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS fucked around with this message at 02:51 on May 20, 2016 |
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May 20, 2016 02:48
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a slime posted:Necc0 if you don't want to be seen as a junior anymore you need to poop on someone powerful. Trust Me I gotta time my fiber & caffeine intake just right and it hasn't aligned yet. Maybe I AM still junior
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May 20, 2016 03:22
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What's a good salary for a software engineer with 8 years experience in Vancouver, Canada?
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Jun 14, 2016 22:56
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return0 posted:What's a good salary for a software engineer with 8 years experience in Vancouver, Canada? $80k. don't work for a vancouver based company
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Jun 19, 2016 23:46
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This article is really interesting since they have bonus and equity information for some big tech companies. https://blog.step.com/2016/06/16/more-salaries-twitter-linkedin/ And in case everyone hasn't seen it this is one of the multiple sites where you can search for H1B visa salary offers. Looks like they just cover base salary which can be unrepresentative of total comp, but it's a great baseline. http://h1bdata.info
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Jun 20, 2016 02:29
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Analytic Engine posted:And in case everyone hasn't seen it this is one of the multiple sites where you can search for H1B visa salary offers. Looks like they just cover base salary which can be unrepresentative of total comp, but it's a great baseline. So these salaries actually have to be representative of the local market given the title, right? Like, assuming that the company isn't one of the abusers you can get a good idea for what the salary bands for companies are using this tool, right?
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Jun 20, 2016 03:01
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Is it normal for companies to include the bonus as part of the negotiable compensation package? I am asking because I just declined an offer at a company where they offered less than what I was making now, but with bonus being (they were saying) 10-15% each year, that would have put me above my current salary. Not by much, mind you, but at my level a 5% increase can be quite significant in term of absolute $. I said that I don't normally consider the bonus as part of my salary, as in, it is not something that I can rely on, make financial plans. The bonus, as I see it, is a very nice perk when it comes, not a big deal when it doesn't. Am I the crazy/unreasonable one here? Even if most of you would say yes, I don't feel bad for refusing them as during the 4 hour interview there were some red-flags with some statements made by the interviewers, which I don't know if they were just testing me or they genuinely believed the crap they were saying (programming related, synchronization techniques, singletons, etc.).
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Jun 22, 2016 16:11
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Volguus posted:The bonus, as I see it, is a very nice perk when it comes, not a big deal when it doesn't. Am I the crazy/unreasonable one here?
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Jun 22, 2016 17:18
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It's fair to not rely on bonuses for your personal finances but they shouldn't be entirely written off either. You can view them as a canary of sorts where if the bonus gets curtailed you start looking for another job pronto. Non-shithead departments understand this and will be very reluctant to cut bonuses because they know it'll be poison for retention.
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Jun 22, 2016 20:05
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The answer to the actual question of "is it common" is yes, though.
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Jun 22, 2016 22:20
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Plorkyeran posted:The answer to the actual question of "is it common" is yes, though. Hmm... it is the first time I've seen it, and I worked for quite a few companies in the last 20 years. Learn a new thing every day i guess. BTW, forgot to mention, this company is mainly american with a Canadian office. Maybe is more common in the US though?
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Jun 23, 2016 03:29
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Volguus posted:Hmm... it is the first time I've seen it, and I worked for quite a few companies in the last 20 years. Learn a new thing every day i guess. BTW, forgot to mention, this company is mainly american with a Canadian office. Maybe is more common in the US though? I think bigger companies like it for accounting reasons? They can treat the bonuses/equity awards separately and in theory if times were tight they could cut those off without losing key people (hah). Base salary goes right into a huge line item under costs and is scrutinized more heavily. Also if you reduce base pay people almost always bail ASAP.
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Jun 23, 2016 04:07
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Ender.uNF posted:I think bigger companies like it for accounting reasons? They can treat the bonuses/equity awards separately and in theory if times were tight they could cut those off without losing key people (hah). Base salary goes right into a huge line item under costs and is scrutinized more heavily. Also if you reduce base pay people almost always bail ASAP. I'd have been understanding about not getting a bonus in 2007-8, but maybe that's just me 
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Jun 23, 2016 14:34
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Yeah if you're in a position where you have good insight into the money flow for the company you'll have a good idea of whether or not they're bullshitting you. To drive home the point of how (non-shithead) departments avoid cutting bonuses- my company had a really crap year last year and even with layoffs they still didn't touch anyone's bonus. Even by the objective measures established to determine bonus none of us met our targets but it was all due to factors out of our control, so our boss fudged the rules in order to justify granting our bonuses to us. If the company you're interviewing with is a stable company with seemingly low-turnover you can probably count on receiving your bonus. I wouldn't weigh it as 100% of face-value compared to base salary- but how to weigh it really comes down to a gut call by you.
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Jun 23, 2016 14:46
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Companies like bonuses over compensation because they can pretend like it's compensation when you're negotiating, but gives them to chance to pull it out from under you if they decide they want you gone, effectively meaning they don't have to pay you it despite making it sound like it was always paid out. Also means they can fire you before the year end and avoid paying it.
hayden. fucked around with this message at 04:40 on Jun 28, 2016 |
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Jun 28, 2016 04:34
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hayden. posted:Companies like bonuses over compensation because they can pretend like it's compensation when you're negotiating, but gives them to chance to pull it out from under you if they decide they want you gone, effectively meaning they don't have to pay you it despite making it sound like it was always paid out. Also means they can fire you before the year end and avoid paying it. Or base the bonuses on a "Company Performance Factor" which is always super low because leadership set the targets rather aggressively, leading to everyone typically getting about 50% of their bonus target.
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Jun 28, 2016 16:42
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Wasn't tech but when the great recession hit and jobs vanished by the million the company I was working for JUST HAPPENED to suddenly shift to bonus incentives that were literally impossible. It went from a few hundred dollars extra every couple of months to "well guess you should have worked harder, better luck next time" in the space of like 6 weeks. Any company that acts like paying bonuses is being nice is totally full of poo poo. They know how much you're worth but are going to pay as little as they can get away with.
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Jun 29, 2016 02:45
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A lot of it depends on the role. If my target is 35-40% then yes it does count as part of compensation to me.
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Jun 29, 2016 06:09
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Since bonus chat is still going on, I want to weigh in. I would never count any kind of variable, non-contractual pay as part of my compensation. I just don't trust companies to make that money materialize when the time comes. I would factor it into my decision, but it would be "$60,000 per year, plus some chance of a $5,000 bonus," vs, "$60,000 per year." I would never think of it as, "$65,000 per year." My last job actually pushed big bonuses as part of the incentive for coming to work for them. I was very skeptical, so I made sure to ask for a salary I was OK with, whether or not the bonus ever showed up. At the one-year mark, they gave me a five-figure bonus. About a month later, they fired me. Make of that what you will. They did come through with the bonus, though.
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Jul 5, 2016 06:16
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We get christmas bonuses here, but they're so not part of your pay that they're not even mentioned during the hiring process and you're not told how much you're getting until the check is in your hand. Same with stock appreciation rights. You just get them one day out of the blue. Your salary is your salary and you're guaranteed a raise every year with a floor of the cost of living adjustment and the ceiling dictated by team lead evaluation. I don't think I'd want to work some where that tried to carrot me along with a portion of my annual pay in the form of a non-obligatory bonus.
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Jul 5, 2016 16:16
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When I was in consulting I had a base salary and bonuses based on utilization. If you were 70% utilized (that is, in a quarter you averaged 28 billable hours a week the whole time) you got 10% of your quarterly salary, and a per-hour cash bonus at a rate that increased as you went up to 100% utilization. If you billed 40 hours a week the whole way through you could get bonuses worth about 50% of your base salary. The problem is the work is either there or it isn't, and that wasn't under my control. If I spent a few weeks on the bench that was money out of my pocket. Or if I got put on a client whose SOW said no billable travel and it's a five hour flight out there, that's money out of my pocket too. I had friends who were 100% utilized, but they were assigned to a given customer for years on end and they had either short flights or didn't have to travel every week.
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Jul 6, 2016 01:19
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When I got hired the recruiter told me that there was a 15% target bonus and also, helpfully, that about 70% of people got at least that.
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Jul 6, 2016 03:39
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