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Ewen Cluney posted:Retail Magic: Golden Friday Edition launched a day later than I'd originally hoped because my friend went crazy making the cover art ridiculously great. So yeah. If you want to see what the Maid RPG rules are like when doing non-pervy stuff, here you go. Oh, this is Reccetar the trpg? Also, that's a lot of tables.
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Nov 29, 2014 19:26
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Covok posted:You have to remember that L5R is INCREDIBLY RACIST and UNBELIEVABLY IGNORANT. The game tries to get away with it by saying it's purposely based on the misconceptions that the west had on the east, but that, honestly, only makes it worse. Since "everyone" knows samurai for using swords and hating shields, then they must hate bows, right? That's a coward weapon because it isn't in your face? Ignore all the samurai who used bows and guns. Wasn't the big thing in L5R that you could only play samurai?
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Nov 29, 2014 19:28
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Evil Mastermind posted:Wasn't the big thing in L5R that you could only play samurai? It's been a long while, but I believe so.
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Nov 29, 2014 19:35
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Evil Mastermind posted:I don't know, I wouldn't fight a dude spinning a venomous snake on a chain. I'm pretty sure Ouyang Feng did this in Legend of the Condor Heroes, I don't know whether any wuxia was on the inspiration list though. quote:The game tries to get away with it by saying it's purposely based on the misconceptions that the west had on the east, but that, honestly, only makes it worse. That's kind of a questionable excuse. Is there anything in the game/setting as presented that supports that beyond just saying it's the deal? Kellsterik fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Nov 29, 2014 |
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Nov 29, 2014 19:41
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Evil Mastermind posted:Wasn't the big thing in L5R that you could only play samurai? Samurai and shugenja, initially. Later on they added courtiers, spies, and monks (as well as variations thereof) as regular play types. In most of the recent editions samurai have no issues with bows, most of that idea comes from John Wick's Way of the Wasp way back in the day.
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Nov 29, 2014 19:42
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Alien Rope Burn posted:Samurai and shugenja, initially. Later on they added courtiers, spies, and monks (as well as variations thereof) as regular play types. You can play those, but they do call them all samurai, IIRC. Like, I remember in 4th ed they use samurai as an umbrella term then you clarify if you're a bushi, shugenjai, or something else.
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Nov 29, 2014 19:44
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Covok posted:You can play those, but they do call them all samurai, IIRC. Like, I remember in 4th ed they use samurai as an umbrella term then you clarify if you're a bushi, shugenjai, or something else. Right, most PCs are part of the samurai class (unless you're playing a ronin or monk, usually), I was just using the term colloquially. The game calls warriors bushi.
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Nov 29, 2014 19:47
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A lot of L5R's particularities can be traced directly back to its origins with Wick, unsurprisingly. Katana-worship, a heavy degree of one-true-wayism, setting and mechanical conceits designed to prevent the players from actively doing stuff...
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Nov 29, 2014 19:48
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LeSquide posted:A lot of L5R's particularities can be traced directly back to its origins with Wick, unsurprisingly. Katana-worship, a heavy degree of one-true-wayism, setting and mechanical conceits designed to prevent the players from actively doing stuff... I wish I could get away with doing no research and being an ignorant bastard by saying it was my ~vision~ like Wick-senpai.
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Nov 29, 2014 19:50
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LeSquide posted:A lot of L5R's particularities can be traced directly back to its origins with Wick, unsurprisingly. Katana-worship, a heavy degree of one-true-wayism, setting and mechanical conceits designed to prevent the players from actively doing stuff... Somehow, I'm not surprised. Did the original version also have invincible NPCs who the players could just sit back and admire? Alien Rope Burn posted:Right, most PCs are part of the samurai class (unless you're playing a ronin or monk, usually), I was just using the term colloquially. The game calls warriors bushi. Bushi is technically a way of saying Samurai, but it's not that common. Night10194 posted:I wish I could get away with doing no research and being an ignorant bastard by saying it was my ~vision~ like Wick-senpai.
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Nov 29, 2014 19:50
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"Otaku Battle Maidens" will never not be hilarious. I love how actually bothering to learn anything about how Japanese names work was just too much effort.
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Nov 29, 2014 19:54
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It's not like he bothered to learn anything about 1600s Europe for 7th Sea, either.
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Nov 29, 2014 19:56
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Covok posted:You have to remember that L5R is INCREDIBLY RACIST and UNBELIEVABLY IGNORANT. The game tries to get away with it by saying it's purposely based on the misconceptions that the west had on the east, but that, honestly, only makes it worse. Since "everyone" knows samurai for using swords and hating shields, then they must hate bows, right? That's a coward weapon because it isn't in your face? Ignore all the samurai who used bows and guns. There's this book I own called Writing the Other: A Practical Guide, whose main purpose is to help writers get in the shoes of people of different cultural backgrounds, ethnic groups, sexual orientations, etc. One of the many bits of advice it has is to find a member of said group to act as a sort of consultant. Personal research helps a lot, but the lived experience of a person from that background provides an invaluable second set of eyes to pick up any discrepancies. Even though there are no samurai living today, I get the feeling that an awful lot of these problems would dissolve if they got a Japanese historian to skim their sourcebooks. The same thing can be said for a lot of other RPG books out there.
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Nov 29, 2014 19:57
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Covok posted:Oh, this is Reccetar the trpg? Also the final version will have Even More Tables, and whoever I get to do layout will hate me for it.
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Nov 29, 2014 20:00
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An addendum, on Mr. Wick; while I will never fail to roll my eyes at L5R, I'm really fond of Thirty. It's a very different take on playing Knights Templar than I've seen before, and it's quite interesting if you're into gnostic and occult thought. I've never run it, but the mechanics for group solidarity and brotherhood have inspired me in a lot of other games. However, it includes an optional katana.
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Nov 29, 2014 20:01
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Kai Tave posted:"Otaku Battle Maidens" will never not be hilarious. I love how actually bothering to learn anything about how Japanese names work was just too much effort. Yeah, Utaku Battle Maidens. Technically, it just means fanatic, but it's much funnier to imagine them as a bunch of fat, shirtless men going to war with banners of their waifus on their back and replica katanas in the air. "They can take our lives, but they can never take our moe! Now, ride to kawaii, my breathen! Ride!" Libertad! posted:There's this book I own called Writing the Other: A Practical Guide, whose main purpose is to help writers get in the shoes of people of different cultural backgrounds, ethnic groups, sexual orientations, etc. Night10194 posted:It's not like he bothered to learn anything about 1600s Europe for 7th Sea, either. I think it comes down to a mix of pride, laziness, and cost not to look poo poo up. Probably doesn't help that "it's fantasy" is a go to excuse for getting poo poo wrong. Well, all that and I bet most people just base this stuff off their favorite fantasy novels. Ewen Cluney posted:The final version is going to have optional "Commerce Rules" to actually make a mini-game out of tracking how the store does, so it'll be that much more like Recettear: The RPG. As is it can also veer into "Lina Inverse is forced to get a part-time job" territory. I'm lost, this isn't the final version? Do we get the final version if we buy this one?
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Nov 29, 2014 20:06
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Covok posted:I'm lost, this isn't the final version? Do we get the final version if we buy this one?
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Nov 29, 2014 20:16
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I think my favorite thing I hate about 7th Sea is how much it tried to remove sailing from the game. Not only is that really ridiculous for a game about pirates, but at the same time, Wick thought he could do that by having the game stick to Not-Europe. I wonder if he has any idea how much cheaper and easier sea travel was in that era, even if you could conceivably just walk? You went by water as much as you could, as far as you could.
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Nov 29, 2014 20:17
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Ewen Cluney posted:As is it can also veer into "Lina Inverse is forced to get a part-time job" territory. This is something I can get behind.  Also random tables own bones.
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Nov 29, 2014 20:28
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Covok posted:Technically, it just means fanatic, but it's much funnier to imagine them as a bunch of fat, shirtless men going to war with banners of their waifus on their back and 
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Nov 29, 2014 20:55
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Do you really want to imagine a fat, shirtless otaku holding a "snake?"
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Nov 29, 2014 21:02
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well, i didn't
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Nov 29, 2014 22:54
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Tollymain posted:well, i didn't I'm the total insincerity
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Nov 29, 2014 22:58
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Covok posted:Do you really want to imagine a fat, shirtless otaku holding a "snake?"
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Nov 29, 2014 23:51
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Covok posted:You have to remember that L5R is INCREDIBLY RACIST and UNBELIEVABLY IGNORANT. The game tries to get away with it by saying it's purposely based on the misconceptions that the west had on the east, but that, honestly, only makes it worse. Since "everyone" knows samurai for using swords and hating shields, then they must hate bows, right? That's a coward weapon because it isn't in your face? Ignore all the samurai who used bows and guns. So is there a samurai RPG that isn't hosed up somehow? Even Sengoku, which looks halfway ok, is crazy in some places. Its ninja supplement (the only one of many promised in the main book) especially seems to freely mix historical fact with fiction without clearly differentiating them.
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Nov 29, 2014 23:58
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Something I'd wondered about, with the amount of arrows flying around; why didn't Samurai use shields? Was it because they needed to be able to use their own bow, as well, or was it just a quirk of how weapons and armor developed in Japan?
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Nov 29, 2014 23:59
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Night10194 posted:Something I'd wondered about, with the amount of arrows flying around; why didn't Samurai use shields? I remember some random story about a Japanese (or Chinese?) army that was low on arrows so some brilliant general had his troops build a sort of boat out of river reeds. He then floated the thing up and down a river so that the enemy shot it a bunch of times. The reeds caught the arrows and noone was hurt inside the boat. Then he returned to his side of the shore and harvested the arrows for his archers and looked smug at the opposing army.
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Nov 30, 2014 00:02
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scissorman posted:So is there a samurai RPG that isn't hosed up somehow? What is Sengoku? Got a link? And, no idea. Probably not. It's not like trying to find a realistic knight game that isn't lovely. Too much fiction around it. By realistic, I mean historically accurate, not gritty. Night10194 posted:Something I'd wondered about, with the amount of arrows flying around; why didn't Samurai use shields? Was it because they needed to be able to use their own bow, as well, or was it just a quirk of how weapons and armor developed in Japan? They did have shields, but the popularity of the weapon died down over time as armor became more advanced. The same thing happened in Europe. To be honest, shields are mainly popular in Europe because of its heavy use in Greco-Roman warfare. In Japan, in contrast, sword fighting developed from spear fighting so shields just didn't factor as much into the equation. Like I said, they existed and people did use them, but they were unpopular and people relied more on armor. Europe did the same when full plate male was invented. The ancient world generally viewed shields as kind of clumsy things, actually. If you had good enough armor, it was better to devote your efforts to the weapons themselves rather than trying to mix it up with a shield.
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Nov 30, 2014 00:06
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Helical Nightmares posted:I remember some random story about a Japanese (or Chinese?) army that was low on arrows so some brilliant general had his troops build a sort of boat out of river reeds. He then floated the thing up and down a river so that the enemy shot it a bunch of times. Pretty sure that was China & the Three Kingdoms novel.
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Nov 30, 2014 00:08
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Ah, I hadn't realized armor hit that point in Japan. I knew about full plate, but I admit I'd always thought Japanese armor was relatively light because they didn't have that much metal.
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Nov 30, 2014 00:09
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Night10194 posted:Something I'd wondered about, with the amount of arrows flying around; why didn't Samurai use shields? Was it because they needed to be able to use their own bow, as well, or was it just a quirk of how weapons and armor developed in Japan? To follow up on my previous point, .jpg/800px-Ashigaru_using_shields_(tate).jpg) .jpg/800px-Samurai_using_shields_(tate).jpg) Night10194 posted:Ah, I hadn't realized armor hit that point in Japan. I knew about full plate, but I admit I'd always thought Japanese armor was relatively light because they didn't have that much metal. Nah, they used metal as you can see here. .jpg) 
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Nov 30, 2014 00:13
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The best thing to come out of L5R is S p i d e r c l a n.
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Nov 30, 2014 00:13
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Cool. Always nice to learn something new. I echo the wish to find a Samurai RPG that isn't crazy racist like L5R.
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Nov 30, 2014 00:23
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Night10194 posted:Cool. Always nice to learn something new. I echo the wish to find a Samurai RPG that isn't crazy racist like L5R. Wait, what?
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Nov 30, 2014 00:34
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Covok posted:What is Sengoku? Got a link? Here: http://www.rpgnow.com/product/16758/Sengoku-Revised-Edition The full name is Sengoku: A Chanbara roleplaying game, with Chanbara basically being samurai period plays and movies e.g. the Kurosawa movies. The system is basically Gurps + rules for honor and other relevant things like shinto rites and magic. It has a ton of detail on Japanese people and society of that time period, so it's really good for that. What I don't like is that's very light on GM rules on how to actually run the game. It gives lots of tables to help you generate homes and towns, but gives no advice on how to actually structure a Chanbara adventure. There's not even a sample adventure. Another problem is that, at least for a layman like me, it's very hard to tell what part of the setting is actually historical and what's taken from somewhere else. This is especially bad in the shinobi supplement I mentioned, where they seem to get a lot of information from the modern ninja traditions, which are somewhat iffy when it comes to accuracy. It does give a bibliography but that's just a long list of books without any comment, so it's not that useful for anyone not already immersed in that field. The company that published the game, Gold Rush games, seem to have vanished after making the game and the Shinobi supplement, which is a shame, since even though the game itself isn't that great, I'd really like to read some of those promised supplements such as a setting specifically set during the various wars in that era.
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Nov 30, 2014 00:39
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We just spent the last couple pages talking about the fact that Legend of the Five Rings is crazy racist and completely, insanely ignorant about Japan. It's basically the Otaku equivalent of putting on blackface and doing a minstrel show.
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Nov 30, 2014 00:39
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Night10194 posted:We just spent the last couple pages talking about the fact that Legend of the Five Rings is crazy racist and completely, insanely ignorant about Japan. It's basically the Otaku equivalent of putting on blackface and doing a minstrel show. It just seems like a fanciful, idealized samurai RPG to me. Not much different than a Japanese tabletop game based off of medieval European style fantasy.
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Nov 30, 2014 00:44
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Night10194 posted:We just spent the last couple pages talking about the fact that Legend of the Five Rings is crazy racist and completely, insanely ignorant about Japan. It's basically the Otaku equivalent of putting on blackface and doing a minstrel show. Speaking as someone with very little L5R knowledge, it seems like this has been asserted as given, with the discussion being about why it was racist and ignorant, and if there are any non-racist, non-ignorant games. The ways in which it is racist and ignorant haven't actually been shown in detail. (Based on the Wick-related posts in F&F I have no problem believing it is as claimed, but that's a different thing from knowing the specifics.)
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Nov 30, 2014 01:00
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inklesspen posted:Speaking as someone with very little L5R knowledge, it seems like this has been asserted as given, with the discussion being about why it was racist and ignorant, and if there are any non-racist, non-ignorant games. The ways in which it is racist and ignorant haven't actually been shown in detail. (Based on the Wick-related posts in F&F I have no problem believing it is as claimed, but that's a different thing from knowing the specifics.) Yeah. Saying that L5R is "crazy racist and completely, insanely ignorant about Japan" is a pretty serious claim, that you probably shouldn't just throw out there without some concrete proof.
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Nov 30, 2014 01:19
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The thing with vaguely medieval fantasy Europe is, by now it's basically a photocopy of a photocopy of someone's Late Medieval Warfare 101 notes. There isn't a whole lot left in there to get mad about, just dungeons on dragons on dungeons all the way down. L5R, on the other hand, takes a bunch of quite distinctly Japanese things, discards all the cool historical poo poo and just hacks everything into this world of frankly insane, irrational stereotypes. None of the characters in the game are actual people, they're just kimonos draped over mental health problems. And also terrible puns in broken Japanese. I wouldn't say it's the most offensive thing out there, but it's a big bundle of really shameless ~cultural appropriation~. It's also pretty tone-deaf for using the real life slur "eta" to refer to their version of the real life Japanese social class of burakumin, who have been generally shat on non-stop over the centuries. It's kinda like having a slave class in your colonial New World game and insisting on calling them "niggers" in the text. Also, in the end, I think it's not very good a game. You could get pretty much the same thing with GURPS and a translated copy of Hagakure. Y'all should read Hagakure, it's just pages and pages of grouching from the gooniest old samurai.
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