Siivola posted:

[...]
Also, in the end, I think it's not very good a game. You could get pretty much the same thing with GURPS and a translated copy of Hagakure. Y'all should read Hagakure, it's just pages and pages of grouching from the gooniest old samurai.

Siivola posted:

The thing with vaguely medieval fantasy Europe is, by now it's basically a photocopy of a photocopy of someone's Late Medieval Warfare 101 notes. There isn't a whole lot left in there to get mad about, just dungeons on dragons on dungeons all the way down. L5R, on the other hand, takes a bunch of quite distinctly Japanese things, discards all the cool historical poo poo and just hacks everything into this world of frankly insane, irrational stereotypes. None of the characters in the game are actual people, they're just kimonos draped over mental health problems. And also terrible puns in broken Japanese. I wouldn't say it's the most offensive thing out there, but it's a big bundle of really shameless ~cultural appropriation~.

It's also pretty tone-deaf for using the real life slur "eta" to refer to their version of the real life Japanese social class of burakumin, who have been generally shat on non-stop over the centuries. It's kinda like having a slave class in your colonial New World game and insisting on calling them "niggers" in the text.

Also, in the end, I think it's not very good a game. You could get pretty much the same thing with GURPS and a translated copy of Hagakure. Y'all should read Hagakure, it's just pages and pages of grouching from the gooniest old samurai.

Zoq-Fot-Pik posted:

Who cares about cultural appropriation.

Zoq-Fot-Pik posted:

Who cares about cultural appropriation.

Zoq-Fot-Pik posted:

Who cares about cultural appropriation.

Siivola posted:

I'm not the GURPS guy (paging doctor Paine!) so I can't tell. They apparently gave it to a Japanese person to comment on, so I guess that's something.

You should, because it's essentially taking a people's history and turning it into kitsch.

Covok posted:

It's kind of a big issue, mate, and something you should be caring about.

scissorman posted:

Here: http://www.rpgnow.com/product/16758/Sengoku-Revised-Edition

The full name is Sengoku: A Chanbara roleplaying game, with Chanbara basically being samurai period plays and movies e.g. the Kurosawa movies.
The system is basically Gurps + rules for honor and other relevant things like shinto rites and magic.
It has a ton of detail on Japanese people and society of that time period, so it's really good for that.

What I don't like is that's very light on GM rules on how to actually run the game.
It gives lots of tables to help you generate homes and towns, but gives no advice on how to actually structure a Chanbara adventure.
There's not even a sample adventure.

Another problem is that, at least for a layman like me, it's very hard to tell what part of the setting is actually historical and what's taken from somewhere else.
This is especially bad in the shinobi supplement I mentioned, where they seem to get a lot of information from the modern ninja traditions, which are somewhat iffy when it comes to accuracy.
It does give a bibliography but that's just a long list of books without any comment, so it's not that useful for anyone not already immersed in that field.

The company that published the game, Gold Rush games, seem to have vanished after making the game and the Shinobi supplement, which is a shame, since even though the game itself isn't that great, I'd really like to read some of those promised supplements such as a setting specifically set during the various wars in that era.

Maxwell Lord posted:

My major problem with the liberties in L5R is that they actually make things less interesting.

Like they give a real metaphysical basis to the caste system, with the noble families actually tied to the gods, but Kurosawa's Samurai films- probably the most common reference point for anyone playing samurai games- are all about how the class system was utter bullshit.

Zoq-Fot-Pik posted:

"Who gives a poo poo" Tumblr-esque cultural appropriation: Idealized or otherwise incorrect depictions of samurai in a fantasy role playing game (which the Japanese definitely do not remotely care about).

inklesspen posted:

Fate/stay night portraying the mythical Arthur as a woman who disguised herself as a man is exactly the same thing as willfully misrepresenting the historical culture of an entire nation because

Maxwell Lord posted:

My major problem with the liberties in L5R is that they actually make things less interesting.

Like they give a real metaphysical basis to the caste system, with the noble families actually tied to the gods, but Kurosawa's Samurai films- probably the most common reference point for anyone playing samurai games- are all about how the class system was utter bullshit.

Libertad! posted:

A point and a counter-point:

1. There were some Japanese-Americans who weren't fond of the Burakumin vampire clan in NWoD, in part because Burakumin were a despised social group who still suffer discrimination today. They felt that the linking of the term with zombie-creating vampires was...crass.

2. Given that, L5R is a different RPG, and there have been times where white Westerners have directly talked down to minority groups who said "actually, this isn't really racist or hurtful to our group," so I can see how good intentions can go bad. I recall one incident years ago on The Gaming Den where the prevailing opinion was that 5th Edition was racist for having a chi power source as a monk class; a poster living in Beijing got hammered for saying that it wasn't because monks wielding chi were an actual thing that showed up in his country's philosophy and literature. He said that it wasn't much different than Paladin's laying on hands being based on Western faith healing, and that a genuinely racist product would exotify or fetishize Asians.

One of our posters Ewen Cluney lives in Japan as an expatriate. He probably has a much better idea on this issue.

Maxwell Lord posted:

Like they give a real metaphysical basis to the caste system, with the noble families actually tied to the gods, but Kurosawa's Samurai films- probably the most common reference point for anyone playing samurai games- are all about how the class system was utter bullshit.

Zoq-Fot-Pik posted:

"Who gives a poo poo" Tumblr-esque cultural appropriation: Idealized or otherwise incorrect depictions of samurai in a fantasy role playing game (which the Japanese definitely do not remotely care about).

Alien Rope Burn posted:

It's an excellent point to make, really. The worst was 1st edition, where commoners were literally inferior, which I found dumb and embarrassing even when I didn't know better. Later editions have given greater parity but never actual equality.


To some extent; but the Legend of the Five Rings CCG flopped badly when marketed in Japan. Granted, that probably has as much to do with what's popular in games there as opposed to here, so it's hard to speak to the exact reasons. Whether or not gamers over there cared about Legend of the Five Rings I can't say, but they certainly didn't care for Legend of the Five Rings.

Zoq-Fot-Pik posted:

Depicting King Arthur as an anime girl who fights anime fights with magic powers is a willful misrepresentation of English historical culture by reducing the Arthurian legends into a kitschy clash of superheroes.

Zoq-Fot-Pik posted:

If I had to guess, the failure of L5R over in Japan was probably due to the fact that Japan has their own tabletop game and CCG industries. I think the last Western tabletop game that was popular in Japan was probably AD&D 2e and the last (and only) popular Western CCG was probably Magic the Gathering. And L5R is certainly neither of those.

Zoq-Fot-Pik posted:

If I had to guess, the failure of L5R over in Japan was probably due to the fact that Japan has their own tabletop game and CCG industries. I think the last Western tabletop game that was popular in Japan was probably AD&D 2e and the last (and only) popular Western CCG was probably Magic the Gathering. And L5R is certainly neither of those.

Helical Nightmares posted:

I remember some random story about a Japanese (or Chinese?) army that was low on arrows so some brilliant general had his troops build a sort of boat out of river reeds. He then floated the thing up and down a river so that the enemy shot it a bunch of times.
The reeds caught the arrows and noone was hurt inside the boat. Then he returned to his side of the shore and harvested the arrows for his archers and looked smug at the opposing army.

quote:

I would like to touch now upon a few innovative developments before I conclude my address to you tonight.

One is an award which will be presented to up-and-coming foreign manga artists. We haven't yet settled upon just the right name for it, but it will be an award that will serve as a gateway, leading to even brighter careers for these prominent artists.

Manga, as a genre originating in Japan, is truly unique in its form of presentation and expression. In manga, it is possible to depict the realities of life or convey to the reader a person's innermost thoughts.

There are people who argue that diplomacy is the art of negotiation, but if you were to ask me, I would respond that if you really want to know what diplomacy entails, you should read the Yugo series by Shinji Makari.

Yugo appears as a running manga strip in the magazine Evening. It's the story of a tough negotiator who takes on all sorts of challenges around the world, wielding words as his only weapon.

In any event, I would like for Japan, as the origin of manga, to award to the standard-bearers appearing in the world of manga all around the globe a prize which carries real authority-the equivalent of a Nobel prize in manga. And I hope that by receiving that prize, they will have a feeling of association with Japan.

quote:

When I start speaking about manga, in my case I find it pretty hard to stop, and I am going to force myself to move on here to the topic of what exactly diplomacy entails. First of all, I would like you to rid yourselves of any stereotypes that diplomacy means diplomats sitting around having dry, rarefied discussions with each other and classified, hush-hush negotiations.

What is the image that pops into someone's mind when they hear the name "Japan"? Is it a bright and positive image? Warm? Cool? The more these kinds of positive images pop up in a person's mind, the easier it becomes for Japan to get its views across over the long term. In other words, Japanese diplomacy is able to keep edging forward, bit by bit, and bring about better and better outcomes as a result.

Generally speaking, Japan has had a rather good track record in this area throughout history. Tea ceremony, for example, has always been coupled with the culture of Zen Buddhism, and even now it is receiving a significant amount of attention. You can say the same about Kabuki or Bunraku. Even if you have only a stereotypical, single-pattern image of Japan as being the land of Fujiyama and geisha, it is clear that there is nothing aggressive within that image at all-it is a very peaceful image.

So for this reason, in Poland and other countries-and this is something I heard directly from the Polish Foreign Minister the other day-when people hear the word "Japan," words such as "the cherry blossoms in bloom" automatically pop up in their minds, like a set phrase of sorts. Now if we are to say that foreign relations between Japan and Poland are going well, we would have to say that part of that stems from the fact that underlying our relationship is a positive image of Japanese culture.

So as we continue to get the word out on Japan's truly splendid traditional culture, and we are very fortunate that in addition to the items of Noh drama and Bunraku, tea ceremony and flower arranging, Japan also boasts many newer forms of culture that have a high degree of appeal.

This would be pop culture, including anime, music, and fashion among others, and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is really going all out to "market" this, so to speak.

I believe most of you know the manga InuYasha. But you might not know that there is a Polish version of InuYasha.

Now I have to admit that I myself did not know this until the other day, when the Polish Foreign Minister presented me with a copy. It's a powerful example of just how far Japanese manga have come to be known around the world. I think we can safely say that any kind of cultural diplomacy that fails to take advantage of pop culture is not really worthy of being called "cultural diplomacy."

Alien Rope Burn posted:

I think it's worth pointing out that Arthur was... uh... not historical. It would probably be better to bring up something like Jeanne D'Arc to try and make that sort of point.

Libertad! posted:

Relevant: The Japanese Minister for Foreign Affairs back in 2007 discussed the growing rate of OEL (Original English Language) manga comics.

As a country with 100 million people, I'm definitely sure that there's a lot of opinions and I don't know how popular this viewpoint is, but it was an interesting read regarding the act of cultural appropriation and exchange.

He discussed it as a positive force for bringing the positive aspects of Japan around the world. He wasn't concerned inherently with foreigners taking Japanese cultural elements in and of itself, so much as whether or not the foreign image of Japan is a positive one.

Zoq-Fot-Pik posted:

This is a cool article.

PublicOpinion posted:

I'm pretty sure SAN checks have at least made their way into common Japanese nerd parlance.

Ettin posted:

Night10194 posted:

As someone else pointed out, it's also boring as poo poo. When I tried playing L5R back in high school, characters were so tightly bound to the ridiculous parody of honor the game used that there was no actual room to play your character, and the entire setting existed to reinforce that this was exactly how it should be.

Libertad! posted:

Yeah, even (or might I say especially) in otaku circles there's a problem of fetishizing Japanese culture, such as assuming you're equivalent to a scholarly expert on the country because you watched a lot of subbed anime.

I remember hearing some things in L5R that sounded weird even to 15-year-old me. Such as the fact that samurai could not eat sushi because fish meat was dead flesh and therefore unclean. To my knowledge real-world samurai weren't required to be strict vegetarians.

Ettin posted:

Libertad! posted:

Yeah, even (or might I say especially) in otaku circles there's a problem of fetishizing Japanese culture, such as assuming you're equivalent to a scholarly expert on the country because you watched a lot of subbed anime. The criticism I hear about L5R point to the designers being like this at times.

I remember hearing some things that sounded weird even to 15-year-old me. For example, samurai could not eat sushi because fish meat was dead flesh and therefore unclean. To my knowledge real-world samurai weren't required to be strict vegetarians.

inklesspen posted:

Fate/stay night portraying the mythical Arthur as a woman who disguised herself as a man is exactly the same thing as willfully misrepresenting the historical culture of an entire nation because

MartianAgitator posted:

Because you're strawmanning? L5R makes up a fantasy world based on mostly Japanese culture but it never ever says, "Hey, this is what Japan was really like!" That is not willfully misrepresenting. What it does is exploit real and perceived visions of East Asian to make something new - the same loving way Conan does

fatherdog posted:

I don't think "Hey, Conan did it!" is as big a slam-dunk when attempting to defend against charges of racism as you may have hoped.

MartianAgitator posted:

Because you're strawmanning? L5R makes up a fantasy world based on mostly Japanese culture but it never ever says, "Hey, this is what Japan was really like!" That is not willfully misrepresenting. What it does is exploit real and perceived visions of East Asian to make something new - the same loving way Conan does with Scandinavia, Rome and the Near East. They are both exploiting the fantastical, cultural and violent images in the common imagination to create a world similar enough to feel familiar, exotic enough to feel fresh and interesting, and different enough to feel like you can actually do crazy, escapist poo poo there and get away with it.

Is it simpler than real life? Yeah, duh. But the people who made L5R wanted so much to get all the cool, real-life details in their works that they didn't leave enough time (or have the skill) to make some realistic, completely three dimensional characters in the game. They left the big, recognizable personalities in the game, so the player would have adventurous costars in their game world.

And the players also got to learn about a bunch of weird, cool poo poo about Japan that they didn't know before, like how it's polite to decline a gift three times to allow the giver to show their sincerity, or about how the justice system values emotion appeal before logic. Weird, crazy poo poo that it was often hard to make a coherent game out of. But hey, you've got some cartoonish NPCs that can start throwing their weight around, make an adventure out of that!

Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled program: sensitive, educated white people calling other sensitive, educated white people racist.

Night10194 posted:

As someone else pointed out, it's also boring as poo poo.

Zoq-Fot-Pik posted:

Yes, this Japanese video game makes light of a brutal series of European conflicts spanning a century that affected the lives of hundreds of thousands. Disgusting.

Zoq-Fot-Pik posted:

If this was in the game it probably isn't anymore. I'm pretty sure the game has changed a lot since it was first released.

Ettin posted: