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Is it more important that the guilty be punished or that the good be rewarded?
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Jun 28, 2015 01:48
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They are both equal aspects of justice.
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Jun 28, 2015 01:57
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Miltank posted:They are both equal aspects of justice. For the Christian I mean.
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Jun 28, 2015 02:19
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Cavaradossi posted:
I honestly wanted to have a reasonable response but that is so jive my teeth hurt. I can in no way imagine how those were stated with a straight face. I really have been sitting here trying to internalize these and it is impossible. This is honestly just meaningless political double talk. The first point is illogical. The second assumes the first then follows it with a non sequitur. if 847 is true then there is no real point to the church. 848 is the equivalent of 
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Jul 2, 2015 03:33
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Of all the bronze age mythologies that exist this one is super different and special.
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Jul 5, 2015 14:14
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Reznor posted:I honestly wanted to have a reasonable response but that is so jive my teeth hurt. I can in no way imagine how those were stated with a straight face. I really have been sitting here trying to internalize these and it is impossible. This is honestly just meaningless political double talk. The first point is illogical. The second assumes the first then follows it with a non sequitur.
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Jul 5, 2015 18:15
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One billion eons from now: God: Remember that time when you were 8 and you didn't share your lollipop with your sister. You: PLEASE GOD DELETE ME FROM EXISTENCE THE TORMENT IS UNBEARABLE. WHHHHYYYYY God: No, and because you did not cut a bit from your cock.
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Jul 5, 2015 18:58
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Jastiger posted:I believe God wants me to murder all redheaded people and to have as many children as possible without the consent of the women. I've also never heard of the Bible as I'm in a part of the world that hasn't had missionaries yet. Well, I'm not the one who judges, but it doesn't sound like you've really sought for God, and certainly if you've committed murder and rape you haven't been moved by grace.
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Jul 6, 2015 20:33
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Reznor posted:if 847 is true then there is no real point to the church. No - 847 in fact lays a huge moral burden on the members of the Church. We must evangelise, so that everyone can hear the Gospel, and doesn't have to go through the extra effort involved in seeking God on their own. 848 of course assumes 847 - this is the normal way of laying out a logical argument in order. It then explicitly lays the burden of evangelization on the Church.
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Jul 6, 2015 20:36
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Cavaradossi posted:Well, I'm not the one who judges, but it doesn't sound like you've really sought for God, and certainly if you've committed murder and rape you haven't been moved by grace. Isn't a big thing about Christianity that all people are equal in their sin and that feelings are equally sinful as actions? So anyone who has ever felt lust has raped and anyone who has ever felt anger has murdered.
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Jul 6, 2015 20:41
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Right, I think we've established quite thoroughly that all this stuff is rather silly. Next question: how do we get rid of it?
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Jul 6, 2015 23:34
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Kyrie eleison posted:This thread is for discussing Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Incarnation, the Son of Man, the Word, the Way, the Truth, and the Life, the Lord, the Light of the World, the Resurrection, the King of the Jews, the Messiah, the Savior, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Really late to the discussion, but I have to dispute this. I am Jewish but went to a Catholic University, with mandatory study of the New Testament each semester. I have read the entire Christian Bible many times, but do not see a strong connection between the "Old Testament," (Jewish Torah and Tanakh) and the "New Testament." One of the things I respected the most about my University was that we studied the inconsistencies among the Four Gospels of the New Testament and the fact that they were written 200 - 300 years after the alleged time of Jesus. I understand Christianity as an Apocalyptic Religion primarily based against the Roman domination of Judea. Once the Roman Emperor Constantine made it the official Religion of Rome, it changed - one of the greatest shifts was blaming the Jews for Jesus's death instead of the original blame on the Romans. The Gospel of Matthew, the least connected to the other 3, states the Jews gathered at Pontius Pilates's decision said 'His blood is on us and on our children' - as if this could justify centuries of persecution of the Jews by Christians. How could a small group of any Religion take on the crime of "Deicide" onto the whole Religion - however, this was used against Jews up to the 18th and 19th centuries! The Papacy, and the many pagan traditions incorporated into the Religion from Easter (rabbits and eggs being fertility symbols and a direct replacement on the calender to Passover) to Christmas (the Roman Saturnalia, including pagan celebrations involving pine trees and gifts) were added after the Gospels. Judaism does not have an explicit heaven or hell, life on earth is most important. Christianity rewards belief with everlasting pleasure in heaven or eternal punishment in hell with a Judgement Day where the Earth will be destroyed. The "Old Testament" does not suggest that G-D hates or is ashamed of Creation - so why would it be destroyed? I cannot see this as a legitimate successor to Judaism. I have never met a Christan who followed the doctrines of "turn the other cheek," "love thy enemy," and "the meek shall inherit the earth." Judaism has no such precepts, only asking that we respect all Humans as part of G-D's creation. Judaism is only a Religion for the Jews - all people can reach and have a relationship with G-D. Jews have a unique relationship with G-D, but it is no better than any other peoples'. This is why Judaism doesn't try to convert people unlike it's "successor" Christianity. Enophos fucked around with this message at 11:37 on Jul 9, 2015 |
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Jul 9, 2015 09:56
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Enophos posted:Really late to the discussion, but I have to dispute this. I am Jewish but went to a Catholic University, with mandatory study of the New Testament each semester. I have read the entire Christian Bible many times, but do not see a strong connection between the "Old Testament," (Jewish Torah and Tanakh) and the "New Testament." One of the things I respected the most about my University was that we studied the inconsistencies among the Four Gospels of the New Testament and the fact that they were written 200 - 300 years after the alleged time of Jesus. I understand Christianity as an Apocalyptic Religion primarily based against the Roman domination of Judea. Once the Roman Emperor Constantine made it the official Religion of Rome, it changed - one of the greatest shifts was blaming the Jews for Jesus's death instead of the original blame on the Romans. The Gospel of Matthew, the least connected to the other 3, states the Jews gathered at Pontius Pilates's decision said 'His blood is on us and on our children' - as if this could justify centuries of persecution of the Jews by Christians. How could a small group of any Religion take on the crime of "Deicide" onto the whole Religion - however, this was used against Jews up to the 18th and 19th centuries! Don't take OP's religion too seriously; it's just a means to punish himself and other people. To him (as far as I can tell), it's not "How to Become a Better Person, the Book" it's "Why You and Everyone Like You Goes to Hell and There's Nothing You Can Do About It".
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Jul 9, 2015 14:20
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TwoQuestions posted:Don't take OP's religion too seriously; it's just a means to punish himself and other people. To him (as far as I can tell), it's not "How to Become a Better Person, the Book" it's "Why You and Everyone Like You Goes to Hell and There's Nothing You Can Do About It". Thanks for your feedback - a lot of Christians I know have a weird drive to self castigate.
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Jul 9, 2015 14:58
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Who What Now posted:Isn't a big thing about Christianity that all people are equal in their sin and that feelings are equally sinful as actions? So anyone who has ever felt lust has raped and anyone who has ever felt anger has murdered. Yep. This is a big thing in Fundamentalist churches, which is why they're so angry at everyone and consumed with self-loathing all the time I think. They literally believe divine intervention is the only thing keeping them from being mass rapist/murderer/child molestors. Ever hear someone say "There but for the Grace of God go I" in reference to someone doing something terrible or being in a terrible situation? That's where it comes from. People literally cannot help but do horrible things to each other, so beg God for help to be a good person because you can't do it on your own.
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Jul 9, 2015 15:16
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The apologism about the rules not applying those who don't know God seem necessary to make the whole thing not seem ludicrously evil, buy wouldn't it then be great to remove all trace of religion to guarantee that your children and all your decendants go to heaven? It's always seemed a bit of a catch 22 to me.
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Jul 16, 2015 19:58
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Trent posted:The apologism about the rules not applying those who don't know God seem necessary to make the whole thing not seem ludicrously evil, buy wouldn't it then be great to remove all trace of religion to guarantee that your children and all your decendants go to heaven? It's always seemed a bit of a catch 22 to me. "may" acheive. It's harder to find God if no-one tells you the Gospel!
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Jul 16, 2015 22:46
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My kids aren't learning jack poo poo about religion, despite my mother's efforts. So they should be good to go.
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Jul 17, 2015 01:02
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me:so say you stopped believing in God. would you change your morality or behaviour? friend:absolutely. me:no I think you are better than that. friend: me:you are a good person.
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Jul 20, 2015 13:56
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Lampsacus posted:me:so say you stopped believing in God. would you change your morality or behaviour? Yeah, there are few things more horrifying than people that straight up tell you the only reason they aren't raping/murdering you is because they believe an immortal police officer will torture them for eternity if they do.
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Jul 31, 2015 12:34
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It's not quite true though, it's more that they've bought into narrative of 'humans bad (except me)'.They believe it to be the case, more than they would actually act as if that were the case. I'm not sure why it's so persistent, it may be capitalist alienation (for the purpose of reducing worker solidarity - the aggrandization of the individual and the demonization of the community/collective as protection of capitalist interests), part of it may be trying to boost the ego of the self through lower of others, or it may be anchoring on the few bad cases and then inflating that out (in the same way a majority of people believe that they are better than average drivers).
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Jul 31, 2015 13:38
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Enophos posted:One of the things I respected the most about my University was that we studied the inconsistencies among the Four Gospels of the New Testament and the fact that they were written 200 - 300 years after the alleged time of Jesus. This isn't the scholarly consensus as I understand it. Mark is believed to be written around 70 AD, Matthew and Luke sometime around 80, and John in the late 90s or perhaps 100. Paul's letters come from about 47 or 48 (1 Thessalonians) and go to the time of his death, sometime around 65. The other letters fall toward the end of that timeline. Revelation is in the early 100s or so. Certain so-called Gnostic texts are sometimes dated in the mid 2nd century, like the Gospels of Thomas, Peter, Mary Magdalene, and Judas, though there is hardly a true consensus on these texts. You might be thinking of the council of Nicaea? When the canon was finally decided? Which was in 325 AD. Cavaradossi posted:"may" acheive. It's harder to find God if no-one tells you the Gospel! This is an absurdity. Does it not seem that way to you? The thing necessary for salvation is acceptance of Jesus as your savior...unless you've never heard of him! In that case it's...uh, good works? But not exactly works, more like following your conscience...unless that conscience tells you to do bad things! In which case, don't do those things. Seek God. Oh, that's right, poo poo, you've never heard of him. How could one be expected to follow God if they don't know to follow God? Oh well, guess that means they can never get into heaven. Oh poo poo! Wait! That makes God a horrible monster! Okay, then they can get into heaven. Maybe. Possibly. Meanwhile, the guy who has heard of Christianity but didn't find it convincing? Burn forever, heathen!!! Look, God could appear to everyone on earth and tell them that he's real and that Jesus is really his son, then everyone would be saved (which he supposedly wants, a la 1 Timothy 2:4), but he doesn't do it. Why? And don't tell me, "he doesn't do that sort of thing" because he clearly does - Paul, for example.
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Jul 31, 2015 17:40
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Who What Now posted:Isn't a big thing about Christianity that all people are equal in their sin and that feelings are equally sinful as actions? So anyone who has ever felt lust has raped and anyone who has ever felt anger has murdered. It's a more a Protestant thing. Luther makes the categories absolute: One is utterly separated from God by sin. One is completely saved by (united with) God by grace. The Catholics have a hierarchy, some sins are worse than others, the degree that a sin separates one can be more or less, depending on what it is.
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Aug 5, 2015 21:48
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Dzhay posted:Right, I think we've established quite thoroughly that all this stuff is rather silly. Next question: how do we get rid of it? 0. Have lots of money. Don't be afraid of Christian death threats. In fact don't be afraid of actual death as doing this could very well get you murdered. Best bet here is that you be someone already famous for something else. And again, have money or sit the gently caress down. 1. Get arrested for public nudity and/or public sex. Get charged with indecent exposure. 2. Fight the case on the scientific absurdity of the claim that the sight of the naked human form or the act of intercourse could have any harmful effect on a child (or any other sane person). See works cited pages of Sex at Dawn for ammunition. 3. Get the media involved to the fullest extent possible. Get the scientific and academic communities involved to the fullest extent possible. If you know any celebrities, get them involved. You will lose this case and become a sex offender, making this a selfless act of tremendous solidarity for all those Poors whose lives are destroyed by this puritanical law, both past and potential future. 4. Seriously though be a reasonably famous rich person before even thinking about doing anything like this. Get other rich and/or famous people to repeat this process until indecent exposure law enforcement is fully farcical in the eyes of the public, just as weed prohibition is today. 5. Wait a few years. 6. Enjoy orgies in public parks unmolested by men wearing costumes and carrying firearms. Side note: we should also be fighting to get bibles and Christian judges pulled from the courtroom. Having judges with mental disabilities is full loving madness. Seraph84 fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Aug 12, 2015 |
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Aug 12, 2015 13:39
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BrandorKP posted:It's a more a Protestant thing. Luther makes the categories absolute: One is utterly separated from God by sin. One is completely saved by (united with) God by grace. The Catholics have a hierarchy, some sins are worse than others, the degree that a sin separates one can be more or less, depending on what it is. To nitpick a little, the protestant belief (or at least Lutheran) is not that murder equals slander or something like that but that God and sin don't match at all. There's just no point in categorizing sins, or comparing them when it comes to the relationship of people and God. What sin does to us is another matter.
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Aug 12, 2015 15:20
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there are sins that can be forgiven, there are sins that cannot be forgiven. i propose that there are 2 categories of sin and not all sin are equal cos they be saying it. they dont think it do but it are what it is.
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Aug 12, 2015 18:53
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Michael Jackson posted:there are sins that can be forgiven, there are sins that cannot be forgiven. i propose that there are 2 categories of sin and not all sin are equal cos they be saying it. they dont think it do but it are what it is. Yeah, but the only one listed as being unforgivable is Blaspheming the Holy Ghost, whatever that means. I hope that means every single Televangelist Pentecostal type is going to Hell for faking glossolalia or whatever.
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Aug 12, 2015 19:55
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Wade Wilson posted:Yeah, but the only one listed as being unforgivable is Blaspheming the Holy Ghost, whatever that means. for trinity believers it means that Jesus is a lesser deity and the holy ghost is superior.
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Aug 12, 2015 20:00
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Wade Wilson posted:Yeah, but the only one listed as being unforgivable is Blaspheming the Holy Ghost, whatever that means. I recall being taught that as part of my Catholic schoolboy upbringing. And it really puts you in a tough spot. Just one little stray thought, maybe not even intentional, but you could easily think it just because the idea of thinking it is on your mind because you're trying NOT to think it, and if you slip up, you're definitively hosed. Just one stray thought. It's like... How can he possibly resist the maddening urge to eradicate history at the mere push of a single button? The beautiful, shiny button? The jolly, candy-like button? Will he hold out, folks? Can he hold out?
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Aug 12, 2015 20:10
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Secret Agent X23 posted:I recall being taught that as part of my Catholic schoolboy upbringing. And it really puts you in a tough spot. Just one little stray thought, maybe not even intentional, but you could easily think it just because the idea of thinking it is on your mind because you're trying NOT to think it, and if you slip up, you're definitively hosed. Just one stray thought. It's like... That's some weird way to interpret that part. Stray thoughts? Generally, the rule of the thumb I've been taught in multiple occations is that if you're worried about Blaspheming the Holy Ghost (interesting translation there, I wonder what is the original word...), you have nothing to worry about.
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Aug 12, 2015 20:15
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Secret Agent X23 posted:I recall being taught that as part of my Catholic schoolboy upbringing. And it really puts you in a tough spot. Just one little stray thought, maybe not even intentional, but you could easily think it just because the idea of thinking it is on your mind because you're trying NOT to think it, and if you slip up, you're definitively hosed. Just one stray thought. It's like... actually it is more than just thinking a thought. but catholics are pretty guilt driven about anything.
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Aug 12, 2015 20:16
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Valiantman posted:That's some weird way to interpret that part. Stray thoughts? Generally, the rule of the thumb I've been taught in multiple occations is that if you're worried about Blaspheming the Holy Ghost (interesting translation there, I wonder what is the original word...), you have nothing to worry about. I don't know. I'm prepared to admit that maybe I was absent from school the day they covered the part about being worried about it. Or maybe I was just preoccupied gazing at this girl I had a crush on. At any rate, I'm pretty sure it would have stuck with me if I'd heard that particular detail. What did stick with me was the idea that what we think can be a sin.
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Aug 12, 2015 20:26
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Secret Agent X23 posted:I don't know. I'm prepared to admit that maybe I was absent from school the day they covered the part about being worried about it. Or maybe I was just preoccupied gazing at this girl I had a crush on. At any rate, I'm pretty sure it would have stuck with me if I'd heard that particular detail. so you did not bother reading and learning yourself? then you might have a lot of misconceptions.
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Aug 12, 2015 20:35
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Michael Jackson posted:for trinity believers it means that Jesus is a lesser deity and the holy ghost is superior. It means no such thing.
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Aug 12, 2015 21:05
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Secret Agent X23 posted:What did stick with me was the idea that what we think can be a sin. Yes, this is central to Jesus's ministry - and is what He instituted in place of the Law. The Sermon on the Mount contains several examples of this - for example the section on murder, Matthew 5:21-22 21 ‘You have heard that it was said to those of ancient times, “You shall not murder”; and “whoever murders shall be liable to judgement.” 22 But I say to you that if you are angry with a brother or sister, you will be liable to judgement; and if you insult a brother or sister, you will be liable to the council; and if you say, “You fool”, you will be liable to the hell of fire. What condemns you is not the action - in this case, murder - but the thought or emotion behind that action - anger - even in the absence of the action.
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Aug 12, 2015 21:10
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Michael Jackson posted:so you did not bother reading and learning yourself? then you might have a lot of misconceptions. I was six years old when all this was going on. By the time I got old enough to start finding books so I could read about it on my own, I had so many doubts about all kinds of other stuff that didn't make sense to me that I was ready to throw the whole thing out the window.
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Aug 12, 2015 21:52
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Valiantman posted:To nitpick a little, the protestant belief (or at least Lutheran) is not that murder equals slander or something like that but that God and sin don't match at all. There's just no point in categorizing sins, or comparing them when it comes to the relationship of people and God. What sin does to us is another matter. I like the phrase "Sin is a state before it is an act", I also like "Sin is separation". And I love this sermon and post it every chance I get. http://media.sabda.org/alkitab-2/Re...zoom=auto,0,792
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Aug 13, 2015 03:51
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BrandorKP posted:I like the phrase "Sin is a state before it is an act", I also like "Sin is separation". And I love this sermon and post it every chance I get. That IS really good a sermon. It's wordy but in that case words are needed. Bookmarked. 
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Aug 13, 2015 05:56
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Miltank posted:It means no such thing. That is actually literally a thing Jesus is reported as saying in John 16:7.
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Aug 13, 2015 12:13
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Wade Wilson posted:That is actually literally a thing Jesus is reported as saying in John 16:7. quote:“They will put you out of the synagogues. Indeed, the hour is coming when whoever kills you will think he is offering service to God. And they will do these things because they have not known the Father, nor me. But I have said these things to you, that when their hour comes you may remember that I told them to you. “I did not say these things to you from the beginning, because I was with you. But now I am going to him who sent me, and none of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.” Jesus sends the Holy Spirit and it speaks his words- not really sure how that makes him the lesser of the two.
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Aug 13, 2015 14:50
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