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Funky See Funky Do posted:You often hear the religious talk about God's Plan but that we simple mortals can't know what it is. Do they ever try to take a stab at it though? Are there any good theologians that have attempted a guess at what (the Judeo-Christian) God's plan is? That is something I would love to read. I mean, I think God's plan was to incarnate himself in reality as a physical human, be put to death by the state for preaching a radical doctrine of generosity and love, and in death found a community of believers that would (hopefully) take on the burden of living ethical lives despite the absence of any authority giving specific instructions after that point. I leave the question of how well this plan has worked out as an exercise for the reader. (Hint: Much like Elvis, people have continued to fantasize that he is alive and communicating with them through burn marks on their toast.)
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Jun 27, 2015 22:23
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Cavaradossi posted:James 2:24 "You see now that it is by deeds, and not only by believing, that someone is justified." The key insight here, of course, is that if one only believes "internally," keeping it in their heart and not acting on it, then they don't actually believe at all. Our actions always betray our true beliefs. Hence why there's no contradiction: the person who merely "believes" without acting doesn't actually believe anyways, and the person who does act without "believing" believes without realizing it.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:46
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OwlFancier posted:That doesn't really work because I very definitely do not agree with the idea of heaven as described in the bible, though I do quite agree with a lot of what Jesus said. Let's set aside Heaven for a moment; it's kind of a weird abstraction with a lot of cultural baggage, and I don't think it contributes to a productive discussion. What we're really talking about here is salvation, and the question of who is being offered deliverance from their sins. Humans are flawed, and make mistakes, so everybody's going to need a little deliverance. The idea is to try to separate people who are sincerely struggling to be good people from the people who are just trying to hedonistically indulge themselves at the expense of others without getting caught. Of course, the God of judgment became Christ and died on the cross. There's no one around to throw you in Hell anymore, or even make you go to Heaven; you're free to do pretty much whatever you want. All that's left is just the Holy Spirit, living on wherever authentic Christian love can still be found.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:14
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Christ died to offer deliverance from sin. If you think you suffer no ill effects from your misdeeds and need no forgiveness, then fair enough; perhaps Christ really does have nothing to offer you. Or, perhaps he's touched you in some way you don't realize. I have no idea. I think sin has a weight though, and some people carry around a heavy weight indeed. The removal of that weight, contingent on communion with the Holy Spirit of Christian community, is what Christ offered the world in death.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:26
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CommieGIR posted:Soooo.....false feelings of relief instead of seeking actual forgiveness and making up for your wrongs. I won't deny that that is how many of the institutions that form mainstream Christianity operate.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:29
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CommieGIR posted:From either the person you've wronged, or yourself. I think that seeking forgiveness from someone you've wronged seems like an extremely Christian thing to do. I'm not sure I would find simply forgiving myself to be very satisfying, though.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:33
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| # ¿ May 16, 2024 05:06 |
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OwlFancier posted:More important that you do, though. I mean I'm atheist so I'm super biased in this but I would definitely say that making restitution to the person you wronged is #1 on the list, followed by adopting a constructive attitude to your actions and feelings. I want to note that you put restitution above therapy, which suggests that you might not see it as a simple matter of eliminating the uncomfortable feelings associated with guilt. On some level, you accept a moral law that its important for people to follow, and an account that actually ought to be settled. Christ's death on the cross actually suggests something more radical than your atheism: all debts are settled, but at the cost of losing the comfort and security of moral certainty. No one has anything to hold against anyone else, no one can claim God's support in blaming or condemning anyone else. However, in order to enjoy the fruits of His sacrifice, in the form of the Holy Spirit, you have to aspire to radical, absolute Christian love instead of fidelity to the moral law. This isn't a legalistic requirement, intended to punish or incentivize you: participation in the authentic Christian community of the Holy Spirit is sort of the delivery mechanism. Again, many mainstream Christian movements have fallen back into the logic of moral law, and that is often the worst part of them.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:59
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