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My Imaginary GF posted:The deal is that Hamas' endorsement of today's synagogue massacre demonstrates the reality of their ambitions: they retain actual genocidal intentions. Nice effort but you do realize this is complete bullshit right?
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Nov 18, 2014 23:43
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My Imaginary GF posted:Let’s say Hamas had the firepower of Israel and Israel had the firepower of Hamas. What do you think would happen to Israel were the balance of power reversed? No I'm not playing this game again. Your statement is bullshit and you know it, Hamas endorsing terror attacks proves nothing but the fact that Hamas endorses terror attacks.
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Nov 18, 2014 23:47
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This is an awesome derail, yes it's fair to speculate that had some miracle occurred right now that would somehow give Hamas access to the same resources Israel possesses while simultaneously stripping the access to those resources from Israel that bad poo poo would go down as far as the Israelis are concerned, yes it's fair to assume that Hamas might be considerably more brutal and genocidal. What does this prove though and who cares other than Israel apologists? This scenario is complete fantasy anyway, it's just another "Israel has to defend itself" non-sequitur.
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Nov 19, 2014 00:00
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vintagepurple posted:How often were jews in Palestine murdered by militant islamists before the establishment of Israel? Honest question. Occasionally. 1929 Hebron massacre is a famous example. Though I don't think 'Islamism' has had anything to do with it.
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Nov 19, 2014 00:01
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CommieGIR posted:Is there any likelihood if Israel doing another offensive over this, or can they even risk it what with the amount of negative exposure they got with the most recent one? Probably not, if the attacks become more frequent things might change but the thing is that Israel really has no one to fight with in the West Bank it can't really stage another "Defensive Shield" if there is no significant armed resistance, not to mention that going on another large scale war is something Israel probably can't afford financially so soon after Protective Edge. If things do escalate and mass riots erupt Israel will have to do things differently.
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Nov 19, 2014 00:11
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Ah the old "Israel isn't literally South Africa so it can't described as an apartheid state and therefore has never done anything wrong" line of reasoning.
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Nov 19, 2014 02:42
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It's not like people come to these threads and decide where they stand based on the opinions expressed in the OP, nobody is going to go Jihad on a Synagogue cause the OP is one sided. The straws people would clutch at. Maybe you could write a paragraph or two about how building settlements, evicting Palestinians from their homes and firing live rounds into protests staged within Palestinian cities is conductive to Israel's long term security goals or something cause those are the only issues at hand really. Let's start with the famous Norman Finkelstein talking point, if Israel has to build a wall to defend its citizens, why doesn't it build it on the internationally recognized 1967 armistice border, instead building it on Palestinian land? I think this is a fair starting point.
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Nov 19, 2014 15:11
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SedanChair posted:It'll be used as an excuse to murder hundreds if not thousands of innocent people. Justwaitaminuterightthere, are you sarcastically implying that this doesn't retroactively justify every act of aggression perpetrated by Israel? Cause that's antisemitism right there.
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Nov 19, 2014 16:58
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team overhead smash posted:I'm not even sure if there is room for debate there. After the Supreme Court of Israel ruled that the wall was okay with some minor changes based on it being for security purposes, didn't the government (much to the chagrin of the court) admit that the purpose of the wall was to annex the land and lead to the court condemning the government for lying to them? I'm sure I've seen that mentioned, possibly in Finkelstein's books, but I don't have any of them in front of me at the moment. The purpose of bringing that up was more of a "why don't you apologists defend actual meaningful policy decisions undertaken by the Israeli government rather than calling the rest of us anti semites". As for Rabin, the myth of "Rabin, the dove carrying the olive branch" is extremely overstated, he was a cynical politician like the rest of them, during the early stages of the Oslo accords implementation he built as many settlements as he could, in fact (as Norm often points out) it is historically evident that the Labor party has actually been de-facto a lot more pro settlements than the Likud. The Oslo accords themselves should not be viewed as a "roadmap for peace that got horribly sidetracked" like most Israeli centrists tend to claim, Chomsky's analysis has always seemed spot on to me: http://www.chomsky.info/articles/199601--.htm
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Nov 19, 2014 17:02
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Friendly Tumour posted:Well I don't know, but one surefire way to ensure that none arise is to keep banging the "Israeli is the baddie here" drum until the thread gets locked again I think that the last one was closed due to a certain poster drumming the "Israel is totally gonna nuke Iran, it's gonna be awesome!!!" drum. Israel is the bad guy, the only reason this thread devolves into poo poo is due to certain posters insisting that anyone criticizing Israel must have a secret anti-semitic agenda.
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Nov 19, 2014 17:52
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Friendly Tumour posted:Yeah, so unless I'm willing to join choir in condemning Israel, I shouldn't post here? Well, glad we got that sorted out. It's more about having the willingness to engage in honest good faith discussion, please see MIGF's posts in the first couple of pages of this thread for an example of dishonest posts that are intentionally designed to derail the thread, or TIC's posts that are just underhanded snide attacks against the "D&D hivemind" and claims that we're all antisemitic (despite the weird fact that some of us are actually Jewish Israelis but hey you know, it's not like this 'self hating jew' thing is new). If you want to have an open minded discussion about any aspect of the conflict there are many posters around here who'd love to give you a run for your money, most of us can even do so while remaining polite and civil.
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Nov 19, 2014 18:06
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So a teacher in Ashqelon thought it would be a good idea to send the following message to her students using WhatsApp: "In days like these it's important to remember that some Arabs are good! and that's where you can find them". Israelis_say_the_most_racist_shit.txt
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Nov 19, 2014 18:39
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Here's another good one: Some woman writes to Naftali Bennet: "Naftali, as you've previously called to start the operation against the tunnels you should call for the cleansing of east jerusalem from terrorism, this should include stripping people of their citizenship, destroying houses and denying social security privileges. We're counting on you, please let Bibi know we're sick of him" Naftali replies: "That's exactly what I'm doing at this very moment." Yay.
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Nov 19, 2014 18:44
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 This photo and status were uploaded by the soldier who murdered at least one person in the demonstration in Bitunia, in the post he celebrates the fact that he concluded his mandatory three year military service and thanks his friends and commanders for all the good times they had. See that picture framed in red? That's a photo taken of him by activists on the day of the murders where he is seen firing into the crowd. His attorney now claims that this was all unintentional and that the soldier had no idea his was firing live rounds (despite the fact that he did it at least 4 different times on the very same day, with several hours separating some of the incidents) but here he is sharing this photo himself and celebrating all the good times. the most moral army, the most moral soldiers. Oh and by the way, the rumors are that the murder charges have already been downgraded to manslaughter, at this rate he's not going to get more than a slap on the wrist.
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Nov 19, 2014 18:59
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Kim Jong Il posted:It's not relevant that Hamas is regularly firing rockets, intentionally maximizes Palestinian civilian deaths, and has a long history of suicide bombings? Relevant to what? Does it justify the continued military occupation of the West Bank, the blockade of Gaza and in general the collective punishment of the Palestinian citizenry? Otherwise no, it ain't relevant. Hamas's unfortunate choice of a cynical military strategy is hardly relevant as Israeli collective punishment policies have been in place long before Hamas existed as a militant organization. Ex post facto justifications or whatever. quote:Sure. The Palestinian Authority has already agreed in negotiations with Barak and Olmert that 1967 borders will have to be adjusted at multiple points. They weren't able to resolve conflicts over Jerusalem and refugees however. That a collaborationist government agreed to territorial exchanges pending good faith negotiations is indeed great, however, this hardly makes it permissible for Israel to unilaterally annex certain territories which it desires and on top of that, no compensation was ever provided. To paraphrase Fink again "It's like debating how to divide a Pizza between two parties while one of them is gobbling down slices". quote:Do keep in mind that BDS, which Finkelstein speaks for in that video, isn't about settlements and the West Bank. BDS is for boycotting the entire state of Israel, a one state solution, and the immediate return of all descendants of 1948 refugees. Which video? Finkelstein brings this up in several different lectures, including his debate with Ben-Ami where BDS isn't discussed. Finkelstein is actually not a part of the BDS movement on account of what he views as their hypocrisy concerning Israel's rights as an internationally recognized state. As for his position in regards to the rights of return, he is simply citing UNSEC resolution 49, this actually has nothing to do with one state or two state or whatever, Ethnic Cleansing is not permissible according to international law and the rights of the refugees are individual and non-negotiable. Even if some Palestinian leader agreed to waive the RoR it will not be legally binding as every refugee is entitled to his basic rights. quote:No, I think it's due to making blanket collective justifications like this. If you get to say that Likud speaks for all of Israel, then it's a lot easier to argue that Hamas speaks for all of Palestinians. I hardly know what this refers to, I am not a republican absolutist that believes that every individual is enthralled to the will of their government, I do believe though that there is a stronger correlation between 'The will of the populos' to 'the will of the government' in countries with due democratic processes. What I meant to say in that paragraph is that TIC and MIGF make these threads terrible, there are also terrible posters in the other camp but they generally don't spend hours upon hours trying to intentionally derail the thread and are thus not worthy of calling out at the moment.
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Nov 20, 2014 14:22
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Baloogan posted:Yup. Did ever even bring up a talking point in any of these threads that wasn't just a grumpy dismissal of everyone else's opinions on account of bullshit hivemind and antisemitism accusations? And btw, Pauline, weren't you banned from these threads for calling all europeans animals or whatever? It's weird that this hivemind bullshit always comes from guys whose modus operandi is making poo poo and run inflammatory posts. If you disagree with 'the hivemind' make reasoned arguments and try to convince people, otherwise if you insist upon thinking that we all lust for the blood of the jew just report this thread to the ADL and spare yourself the bother of reading our Goebbels-esque propaganda.
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Nov 20, 2014 14:42
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murphyslaw posted:Seconding this. Why is every act of violence by Palestinians in accord with a sinister master plan to slowly make Israel judenfrei, but when the IDF repeatedly shells kids playing football on the beach, bombs UN shelters with children and western aid workers still inside, and all the other horrid poo poo they do, all that's said is "regrettable, but necessary"? That is, if they even say "regrettable" and not just "good riddance haji scum". For the same reason hate crimes are usually motivated by racist ideologies etc, for the same reason we consider the Abu Khdeir murder to be a hate crime with nationalist motivations. No one is saying that there is an orchestrated plan or any of that stuff, People in Palestine are fed up and angry and some of them choose to commit violent crimes against those whom they consider to be their oppressors. I don't really get what point you guys are trying to make, do you think that the recent wave of attacks is not politically motivated? These are not people who woke up one day and randomly decided to go postal at their co-workers, there is an obvious ideological motivation here.
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Nov 20, 2014 14:56
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I doubt that the IDF is overly concerned about the possibility that bomb shelters within Israeli kindergartens in Ashqelon will be used as possible rocket launch sites. They fear that Arab constructions workers working at kindergartens wouldn't be able to help themselves and start butchering Jewish toddlers. No apartheid here, move along please.
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Nov 20, 2014 19:00
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You like talking to people whom you don't disagree with? What are you some kind of freak? Personally I prefer all my conversations, electronic or otherwise, to be argumentative and inflammatory.
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Nov 20, 2014 19:28
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So yeah, it's nice to observe that indeed politicians often don't care about morality and that government policy is often immoral, I'd say it's a little extreme to divorce morality from politics entirely but whatever, the question is whether this really invalidates critique that is itself borne of moral concerns. Basically, we're saying "that's some evil poo poo dude" and your response is "yup! politicians sure do some evil stuff sometimes, that's the system man", so yeah you see, we're not politicians ourselves and some of us might think that wrong things are wrong or whatever.
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Nov 20, 2014 20:14
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Oh so now it's the "Well, you might be right but some anti-semites say words similar to the words you're saying and we can all see how that's a big problem that justifies everything Israel does" argument? MIGF can you just stop, please, we get it, Israel is an ally, Arabs are not, always back your allies, governments are immoral, bad things happen. We Get It.
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Nov 20, 2014 21:24
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Kim Jong Il posted:Yeah it is relevant when comparing the two organizations. Which I didn't. You brought this up. Regardless, I'm still curious as to how any of this mandates or justifies Israel's constant violations of Palestinian human rights and their right for self determination and governance. quote:Everyone is cynical. Hamas does what it does because it thinks that it will help its negotiating position. The same goes for land grabs. That's fine and all but once again, not pertinent, Israel is not negotiating, in fact one can wonder what imperative Israel has to negotiate anything even if it was interested in a territorial settlement and a two state solution, Israel is holding all the cards and can draw its own borders and defend them, moreover it seems absurd to suggest that the land grabs are meant to be swapped in future negotiations as Israel is settling hundreds of thousands of people in the territories it swaps. Also worth noting that while it's a nice negotiation strategy to actively seize lands just so that you could later hold on to a greater proportion of stolen land this is also an act of aggression and a war crime. quote:How much precedent is there for descendants of refugees being repatriated? Regardless, this is basically saying that the conflict will perpetuate indefinitely, and it very wall may, because that absolute red line for Israel in that it means that a two state solution isn't feasible. They literally will never agree to it. I don't think Abbas could agree to waive it without being turned into Sadat, but this is one area where the international community largely is on Israel's side. It's also a gigantic can of worms due to all of the Jewish refugees from 1948. Which modern precedent is there for ethnic cleansing where the refugees have requested to return to their homes and were repeatedly denied? Why should they lose their claims solely because the Israeli government is stalling for time? There is no can of worms in regards to Jewish refugees, the European refugees of the 1940s have received restitution and many of them (and their descendants) have had their citizenship reinstated in the countries they fled, lost property was also returned. Refugees from muslim countries during the 1950s likely do not want to return, regardless, they are still entitled for restitution which they should sue for from those respective countries. What can of worms can be possibly opened here? As for your claims that the RoR is an obstacle for peace and normality, I strongly disagree, while it is true that the RoR was a major source of hostilities during Israel's nascent years the obvious cause for the constantly escalating violence of the past few decades is the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, remove the constant friction between the IDF and the Palestinian citizenry and you've got yourself a recipe for peace and stability, there is no true cause to think otherwise, the refugees will get their due compensation eventually, the only obstacle towards that is the ongoing hostility and not the other way around. emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 02:09 on Nov 21, 2014 |
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Nov 21, 2014 02:01
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This is stupid. I blame The Insect Court.
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Nov 21, 2014 15:17
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Patrick Spens posted:There are more Palestinian refugees than there have ever been, and their situation is worse than it has been in decades. Why do you think that RoR won't be a major problem in a post-occupation world? Even if Israel was willing to pay compensation, most of the refugees don't want compensation, they want to go home, why are they going to stop wanting that once Israel stops occupying the West Bank? Hamas's goal isn't a two state solution, it is a single Islamic State. Why are they going to give up on their goal if Israel withdraws from the West Bank and opens the boarders of Gaza? First, I never said 'shortly after', I believe it will take decades, true 'peace' is only possible after decades of normalized relations, even a hundred years from now you might still get the occasional Timothy McVey type character doing some stupid poo poo and killing children (not implying that this person would necessarily be a Palestinian either), it's important to understand that this 'Security Absolutism' that Israeli politicians and their american enablers bring up is a bullshit fantasy, Israel is going to have to deal with the occasional politically motivated hate crime without resorting to collective punishment, this is in itself is in many ways the 'solution' to the conflict. Which is why I find it amusing when people go 'it's sooooo complicated, there is no obvious solution' where there clearly is, Israel will have to contain (in the psychological sense) certain acts of violence, which through the passage of time will become less common. Second, I didn't mean monetary compensation necessarily, I used the word restitution everywhere else in that post but compensation slipped through in the last paragraph, I do not see any true difficulties with large numbers of Palestinians being granted Israeli citizenship (pending a period of normalcy, as per the above paragraph), of course the logistics might be somewhat problematic but I don't believe that every single person who is currently designated as a Palestinian refugee by UNWRA truly feels affinity to Palestine and would want to migrate back here, moreover once a Palestinian state exists within the 1967 borders exists (inshallah) portions of the refugees will be resettled within that territory. It is of course hard to imagine 20+ million people living in 'Greater Israel', some compromises will have to be made, the thing is that I don't believe that this is a sufficient cause for the sort of violence we've been seeing in the past few decades and thus, categorically, cannot be viewed as obstacle towards peaceful coexistence.
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Nov 21, 2014 18:12
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93hqlmrZKd8 Pertinent.
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Nov 21, 2014 20:28
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Cat Mattress posted:Also, how Israel classifies the houses of relatives of suspected opponents. Don't forget the Al Jazeera offices in Gaza. It's really pretty funny (or the opposite of funny) how Israel didn't get any sort of flak for that when it was clearly a mean spirited vengeful attack cause AJ said some bad things.
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Nov 21, 2014 21:16
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Wait a minute, did MIGF shift the discussion again to put the onus on the Palestinians and pretend like their resistance to Israeli occupation and aggression is the cause for said occupation and aggression? My Ahistorical Girlfriend
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Nov 22, 2014 13:00
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Kim Jong Il posted:Attacking West Jerusalem isn't resistance to occupation. I don't think it's controversial to say that their tactics have made their situation appreciably worse. Pick any metric you want, and they were much better off before the last intifada. Is there any chance at all that a third intifada doesn't lead to a worse outcome for Palestinian quality of life? Remember, the first intifada had James Baker running American foreign policy which led to Madrid, while the next American president will either be Hilary "I Support Protective Edge" Clinton or a Republican. Attacking the citizens of an occupying power might not be 'nice' but it is a form of resistance, don't really see how you can claim it isn't. You could claim it ain't legit or criticize its efficacy, as you did, but to flat out state that it doesn't count? I mean, what is it otherwise? A spontaneous anti-Semitic attack? Terrorism is a form of armed resistance, and thus, the putting the onus on the occupiers thing which I was going for. As for your views in regards to the strategic value of these attacks and another intifada in general, some people would tell you that freedom and independence are more important than improved material conditions under oppression, that in the long term they believe that things will be better if they keep fighting. Personally I'm too decadent to buy into that stuff, perhaps you are too, but from observing the situation and reading about similar historical occurrences it would seem like a rather common sentiment, people under oppression would often prefer not to live under oppression and many times resort to violence, history also tells us that people who fight for their freedom usually win it eventually.
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Nov 23, 2014 01:40
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My Imaginary GF posted:Who gets to define what an "occupying power" is and which attacks against them are legitimate and which are attacks against perceptions of occupation which are figments of an idealogue's imagination? gently caress off.
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Nov 23, 2014 11:53
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http://mekomit.co.il/%D7%9C%D7%90-%...A0%D7%99%D7%9D/ I assume an English translation will appear soon enough on 972 but this is interesting and damning so I'll post my own summary quote:A reserve IDF combat medic was surprised when at a refresher course he was instructed to only resuscitate Jews. Further they were told to shoot to kill any assailant, even if he no longer poses a threat. emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 13:57 on Nov 23, 2014 |
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Nov 23, 2014 13:40
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Xander77 posted:With those badges in place, there is no possibility of such an awful occasion repeating itself, and an injured Jew being mistaken for an Arab. We can walk down our streets safely and in high spirits, wearing our national identity on our sleeves. After all, what else was the state of Israel established for?" Israel is the poster boy for the 'the writing on the wall' idiom, has there ever been a doomsday prophecy by an Israeli leftist that didn't come to fruition in a matter of decades? Anyway, I suppose you've already seen this but I guess some posters didn't, so there were some developments today in regards to the murders in Bitunia, the prosecution advertised some new facts today, I guess I'l start by saying that it has no been confirmed that the soldier will not be charged with two counts of murder but rather with one count of manslaughter, which, as the facts advertised today demonstrate is preposterous. So, it has been determined that the soldier had inserted at least four live rounds into a magazine filled with blank rounds, those magazines are painted red by the IDF and are meant to be used with a special attachment to the barrel of the rifle where a projectile consisting of three rubber-encased metal balls is propelled by the gasses released by the blanks, so, in order to actually fire the live rounds not only did he need to have switched the bullets as he did, he also had to have made sure that the front attachment was unloaded, so there's absolutely no chance the shooting was accidental. Moreover, the photos from that day clearly show that the two people who shot were at least 80 meters away from him, did not approach his position and did not do anything particularly threatening in general. So we have a guy who woke up one day and decided he wants to murder some Palestinians, later puts a picture of him at the scene of the crime with the title "some of the best days of my life", and yet somehow it's accidental manslaughter. And of course this guy is getting praised by the masses on the social networks.
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Nov 23, 2014 21:23
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team overhead smash posted:You're Israeli yourself, right? Everyday basically. I definitely wouldn't want my kid to go through the Israeli education system so the clock is ticking.
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Nov 24, 2014 02:04
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Xander77 posted:Eh. Political Science 101 (right after "the difference between 'ought' and 'is'", as noted by Yltaya): proposed legislation means anything between little and nothing. If and when the law actually is actually enacted (without being struck down by the https://www.facebook.com/TnyhtHmspryymWbwNdbrlZh/photos/a.478764842145532.107849.454801224541894/844720502216629/ quote:So leftists in my feed are like "I have no idea what differs the new nationality law from the existing legislation but if this is promoted by the right they must be up to something, so we oppose it"
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Nov 24, 2014 08:58
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Actually (most) Jews do learn Arabic, well, there's a choice between Arabic and French in the 7th grade but most students go with Arabic. It's definitely doesn't receive as much focus as English where every Israeli student has to study English for 9 years starting at the 3rd grade culminating in a matriculation exam in the 12th grade. (I went with French, it was easier. I don't actually know any French).
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Nov 24, 2014 18:29
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I can't be arsed to collect links and post full articles but more and more poo poo gets flung at the fan on a daily basis around here, If I were more  I'd speculate that the Bibiocracy is trying to rile up the most moral people in the world into something quite horrible, in the past couple of days there are numerous reports about foiled terrorist plots such as assaulting Beitar Jerusalem's (a racist team with a racist fanbase, parts of which were involved in the Abu Khdeir lynching) stadium, another seemingly BS story was about Hamas terrists gunning for Avigdor Liberman's head during Protectective Edge, now there was a story about how some guy who died/was-murdered while working at a construction site was actually a terror victim even though the identity of the assailants is unknown.And of course, all the while the new "Law of Nationality" is making the rounds, where apparently the variant that was initially approved by the government freaked out every center-right member of Bibi's government to the point where he is now proposing a new more moderate version, still racist of course. At the same time the Israeli police and border police seem to have received orders to make life even more miserable for Palestinians living in Jerusalem as a couple of days ago an entire street was sprayed with the notorious 'skunk water' (video here: https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=800302796677754&set=vb.271642229543816&type=2&theater). It's hard to guess whether this is just your run of the mill posturing and attempts at apartheid by attrition or if Bibi is planning something big, If I had to venture a guess it would seem like a semi serious expulsion in Jerusalem (a few hundreds, maybe more) is planned with words like 'a security buffer' being used as an excuse. Edit: Gaza, earlier today 
emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Nov 27, 2014 |
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Nov 27, 2014 17:04
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Darth Walrus posted:Jewish-only roads? "Israeli"-only.
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Nov 27, 2014 19:38
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GlennFinito posted:Doesn't an Israeli passport make the distinction whether you are Jewish or not? The passport doesn't, the ID card does.
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Nov 27, 2014 19:57
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Seriously my eyes just glaze whenever MIGF is at it. Everything he posts has the most tenuous connection to what he's replying to it's almost endearing, it's like he's a robot designed to deflect criticism of Israel and the US government through constant filibustering. GlennFinito posted:Which forms of ID do you have to show at checkpoints to gain access to roads? The ID cards, Palestinians have PA issued ID cards which are in themselves distinctive, I believe people also require permits, at least in some crossings, I don't know how those roads really work logistically, I assume many of them simply originate in Israeli settlements which have checkpoints at the entrance, also worth noting that Israeli cars have different colored license plates than Palestinian cars. emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 03:22 on Nov 28, 2014 |
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Nov 28, 2014 03:14
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Here's a non PC post: Saying that the 'far away mosque' mentioned in the Quran during Muhammad's night journey is the al Aqsa mosque is... dishonest to say the least, that mosque was built nearly a century after Muhammad passed on. I mean traditions are nice and all but I have no qualms about saying that the Torah is a fabrication so I don't know why I have to pretend like Muslim tradition holds more historical validity. Jerusalem is however mentioned as Solomon's temple (mosque) is mentioned, so in the very least it is hinted upon.
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Nov 28, 2014 13:01
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MeLKoR posted:
I've deciphered the code even further: quote:quote:
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Nov 28, 2014 20:43
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