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Didn't see a thread, so go ahead and discuss rectal feeding and water boarding in here. http://www.intelligence.senate.gov/study2014/sscistudy1.pdf
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Dec 9, 2014 19:59
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Rectal feeding? What's that? I'm at work, so I'm a little hesitant to Google it.
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Dec 9, 2014 20:02
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Rectal feeding - good for both prisoners and presidents alike
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Dec 9, 2014 20:02
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Some highlights, some are super  :         213: Email from: [REDACTED]; to: [REDACTED]; subject: Greetings; date: August 11, 2002, at 09:45AM.           
treasured8elief fucked around with this message at 02:15 on Dec 10, 2014 |
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Dec 9, 2014 20:02
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Ahahahahahahah after a few days of confinement and 24 hours of stress posture torture the CIA ascertains the prisoners are CIA moles who have been trying to get in touch with the CIA for months America: If You Shoot For the Moon and Miss, Nail the Barn
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Dec 9, 2014 20:33
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So how is this report partisan, as morons on the right have been accusing?
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Dec 9, 2014 20:35
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The two psychologists who studied torture techniques made $81 million. 
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Dec 9, 2014 20:37
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This is just the Month of Zero Accountability, isn't it? America: where an authority figure's right to swing his fist doesn't end anywhere at all
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Dec 9, 2014 20:37
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Incidentally, terms for the members of the Committee Against Torture at the UN, which monitors implementation of the Convention Against Torture, expire in 2015. The vice-chair (who I have no reason to have a problem with) is from the US.
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Dec 9, 2014 20:41
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:This is just the Month of Zero Accountability, isn't it? America: where an authority figure's right to swing his fist doesn't end anywhere at all I only hope that it leads to some kind of new interest in politics, at the very least. Like, there's got to be a few people out there going, "How did we get here?" The only way that a government can get to this sort of stage is if there's not a critical enough mass of people pressuring and monitoring their actions. There's been a mass disconnect of people from the whole idea of "politics" in general, and the government has taken good advantage of that, even in situations where its own actions are actively harmful to its continuity!
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Dec 9, 2014 20:42
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Page 16 footnote says "Juma gul who was released with a payment of $[redacted] and other currency." Is this saying they paid him off?
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Dec 9, 2014 20:47
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Vermain posted:I only hope that it leads to some kind of new interest in politics, at the very least. Like, there's got to be a few people out there going, "How did we get here?" Why should we plebs re-engage? When we do that, at best they ignore us, most likely gas/arrest/beat/charge us and seize our assets, and at worst kidnap and torture us. Unless you're really wealthy, at this point, it makes sense to keep your head down.
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Dec 9, 2014 20:47
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Willie Tomg posted:Ahahahahahahah after a few days of confinement and 24 hours of stress posture torture the CIA ascertains the prisoners are CIA moles who have been trying to get in touch with the CIA for months But my Tom Clancy fantasies.... 
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Dec 9, 2014 20:48
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Vermain posted:I only hope that it leads to some kind of new interest in politics, at the very least. Like, there's got to be a few people out there going, "How did we get here?" Yes, I'm sure evidence piling on top of evidence that your vote doesn't mean jack poo poo will definitely get more people involved in politics. Your cause and effect is reversed. People stop voting when they don't feel like their vote makes a difference.
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Dec 9, 2014 20:48
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Radbot posted:So how is this report partisan, as morons on the right have been accusing? Talks about things republicans and democrats have enacted and defended, ergo: partisan.
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Dec 9, 2014 20:48
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:This is just the Month of Zero Accountability, isn't it? America: where an authority figure's right to swing his fist doesn't end anywhere at all Funny to say about a government report outlining all this in plain view of the world.
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Dec 9, 2014 20:51
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Xandu posted:Page 16 footnote says "Juma gul who was released with a payment of $[redacted] and other currency." Or tipped him for taking it like a champ, yes. Volkerball posted:Funny to say about a government report outlining all this in plain view of the world. Accountability directly connotates consequence. What do you seriously think will be the consequence of this? Who, anywhere, will do literally the first thing in response to the global military hegemon torturing people in black sites all over the world as part of a spurt of power projection which has destabilized the middle east in a way that hasn't been seen since the Ilkhanate, all initiated because a nonstate group blew up some buildings? Willie Tomg fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Dec 9, 2014 |
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Dec 9, 2014 20:51
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The United States has perfected the police state. It openly admits to doing horrendous things and no one bats an eye. Just go back to work and watch Big Bang Theory 
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Dec 9, 2014 20:51
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Willie Tomg posted:Ahahahahahahah after a few days of confinement and 24 hours of stress posture torture the CIA ascertains the prisoners are CIA moles who have been trying to get in touch with the CIA for months
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Dec 9, 2014 20:52
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Volkerball posted:Funny to say about a government report outlining all this in plain view of the world. Yeah, but what the government report details is that nobody has been in any way punished for any of this, and likely won't be. Not to make a cheap reference, but there ain't exactly an indictment coming out of this any time soon.
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Dec 9, 2014 20:52
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Xandu posted:Page 16 footnote says "Juma gul who was released with a payment of $[redacted] and other currency." ahahaha the cia's policy of never revealing budget items extends to hush money
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Dec 9, 2014 20:52
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Radbot posted:Your cause and effect is reversed. People stop voting when they don't feel like their vote makes a difference. Why do they feel that their vote doesn't make a difference? Or, perhaps more importantly: What is the solution for this feeling?
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Dec 9, 2014 20:54
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The only internal solutions are prevented by the problem itself or actively support the problem. It will take external economic and diplomatic influences to change this. He says to avoid being disappeared.
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Dec 9, 2014 21:07
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yeah, but what the government report details is that nobody has been in any way punished for any of this, and likely won't be. Not to make a cheap reference, but there ain't exactly an indictment coming out of this any time soon. Why would there be indictments? It was a government policy supported at all levels, even if the scale was unknown. They didn't just make this report for fun. Something can come of it in the future, and progress is being made on that front. When's the last time you saw north korea formally investigate its labor camps and release the report to the public?
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Dec 9, 2014 21:25
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The UN saying we're legally required to bring them to justice probably has something to do with the call for indictments
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Dec 9, 2014 21:28
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The UN needs an independent army. Preferably with cyborgs.
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Dec 9, 2014 21:30
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Radbot posted:So how is this report partisan, as morons on the right have been accusing? Probably because it points out that this was done under a republican president, and that would look bad.
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Dec 9, 2014 21:30
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Volkerball posted:Why would there be indictments? It was a government policy supported at all levels, even if the scale was unknown. They didn't just make this report for fun. Something can come of it in the future, and progress is being made on that front. When's the last time you saw north korea formally investigate its labor camps and release the report to the public? I'm glad we're setting the bar firmly at "hey, at least we're not North Korea. Those guys are CRAZY"
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Dec 9, 2014 21:30
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Volkerball posted:Why would there be indictments? It was a government policy supported at all levels, even if the scale was unknown. They didn't just make this report for fun. Something can come of it in the future, and progress is being made on that front. When's the last time you saw north korea formally investigate its labor camps and release the report to the public? This is an interesting perspective, I think: https://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/09/opinion/pardon-bush-and-those-who-tortured.html It'll never happen, but still interesting.
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Dec 9, 2014 21:31
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Let's get real, no government anywhere is going to arrest itself because of the UN. The best we can hope for here is reform and transparency for the future, which isn't unlikely considering that the report really outlines how much of a failure the torture program was. Near useless for information, incompetently run, huge drain of money and effort. It's pretty clearly not the way forward no matter where you stand ideologically.
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Dec 9, 2014 21:33
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Volkerball posted:Let's get real, no government anywhere is going to arrest itself because of the UN. The best we can hope for here is reform and transparency for the future, which isn't unlikely considering that the report really outlines how much of a failure the torture program was. Near useless for information, incompetently run, huge drain of money and effort. It's pretty clearly not the way forward no matter where you stand ideologically. If the purpose had been to get information, sure. To get vengeance, to terrorize perceived enemies, it did a perfectly adequate job.
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Dec 9, 2014 21:37
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Volkerball posted:Let's get real, no government anywhere is going to arrest itself because of the UN. The best we can hope for here is reform and transparency for the future, which isn't unlikely considering that the report really outlines how much of a failure the torture program was. Near useless for information, incompetently run, huge drain of money and effort. It's pretty clearly not the way forward no matter where you stand ideologically.
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Dec 9, 2014 21:41
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Oh, you left out the part where [CIA OFFICER 1] literally got a cash bonus four months after that, for "consistently superior" work, and got to skip the practical portion of his formal interrogation certification thanks to his "past experience with interrogations".
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Dec 9, 2014 21:43
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Indicting anyone in the state / defense departments or CIA for torture seems caught in an endless loop: -Was it a top-down policy tacitly approved at all levels? Then we can't blame the minions, and we'll never get anything meaningful leveled against the higher-ups. We should drop it. -Was it done without the approval or complete knowledge of those at the top (Powell, Bush, Cheney?) Then no one meaningful could be prosecuted. Why open old wounds and make ammo for the next political cycle? We should drop it. I'm very pessimistic about any of this, but I support those who at least show up to these hearings and try to get the word out.
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Dec 9, 2014 21:44
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Volkerball posted:Let's get real, no government anywhere is going to arrest itself because of the UN. The best we can hope for here is reform and transparency for the future, which isn't unlikely considering that the report really outlines how much of a failure the torture program was. Near useless for information, incompetently run, huge drain of money and effort. It's pretty clearly not the way forward no matter where you stand ideologically. We can still call for justice even if we have no realistic expectation of such. And we already knew torture was useless, that didn't stop us. Consider it a symptom of how out of control the CIA and war machine are.
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Dec 9, 2014 21:47
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Volkerball posted:Let's get real, no government anywhere is going to arrest itself because of the UN. The best we can hope for here is reform and transparency for the future, which isn't unlikely considering that the report really outlines how much of a failure the torture program was. Uh, exactly what do you consider holding people accountable to entail, then? You seem to pretty much agree with the sentiment you were disagreeing with.
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Dec 9, 2014 21:47
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Cocoa Ninja posted:Indicting anyone in the state / defense departments or CIA for torture seems caught in an endless loop: the gently caress we can't (I get where you're coming from, it wouldn't play well on CNN/FOX/etc)
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Dec 9, 2014 21:48
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Oh, you left out the part where [CIA OFFICER 1] literally got a cash bonus four months after that, for "consistently superior" work, and got to skip the practical portion of his formal interrogation certification thanks to his "past experience with interrogations". The bonus is pretty absurd, though I'm inclined to agree with the footnote that questioned the wisdom of punishing a junior officer, likely in his early 20s, while letting everyone else off that condoned it.
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Dec 9, 2014 21:52
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Also, according to the report, there was a lot of poo poo going on that wasn't being directly monitored or controlled by CIA HQ, let alone the White House or Congress. I think it's perfectly acceptable to hang policy-makers both for specific policies and for failure to maintain oversight and control of those who wound up actually committing torture, and to hang those who were actually committing torture. But then, I'm unpatriotic like that, because accountability is un-American! (God, I feel like that line I stole from an old Bloom County comic should be run into the ground by now, but it just always feels so perfectly apt and satisfying to say.)
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Dec 9, 2014 21:52
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eviltastic posted:Uh, exactly what do you consider holding people accountable to entail, then? You seem to pretty much agree with the sentiment you were disagreeing with. We are holding the policy accountable for what it's side effects and consequences were, instead of just saying hooah, torture owns. The policy is on trial, not the people who were responsible for it. That's still really important. Even more so actually. Throwing someone in prison isn't going to un-waterboard anyone, but we can call for steps to prevent it from happening to others in the future, and now is the time to do that.
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