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As all this information trickles out of the report, I think it's a good time to remember that we all make mistakes sometimes, and it's important to focus on building a better future rather than dwelling on what has happened in the past.
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Dec 9, 2014 21:54
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Volkerball posted:We are holding the policy accountable for what it's side effects and consequences were, instead of just saying hooah, torture owns. The policy is on trial, not the people who were responsible for it. That's still really important. Even more so actually. Throwing someone in prison isn't going to un-waterboard anyone, but we can call for steps to prevent it from happening to others in the future, and now is the time to do that. We already knew torture was ineffective. At best we may stop it for a little until we decide to do it again.
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Dec 9, 2014 21:54
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What a coincidence the report lands just in time for the new Republican majority to completely ignore it when they take their seats. This Hayden fellah sure did lie to us. Oh well, what's a fib or two. Meanwhile, this GRUBER rear end in a top hat called people stupid! On TV of all places!
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Dec 9, 2014 21:55
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Zeitgueist posted:We can still call for justice even if we have no realistic expectation of such. This is faint optimism, but I sincerely envy you for having even that. That's all I can really say without descending into a rant of despair. Like, He was violently raped with an instrument, and you have the Director saying "heh all they got were some bruises, wanna cry about it."
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Dec 9, 2014 21:56
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Zeitgueist posted:We already knew torture was ineffective. Torture being effective or not was divided down partisan lines among the general public. All but the fringe left deemed it a necessary form of information gathering because it worked for Jack Bauer.
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Dec 9, 2014 21:57
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Hasn't torture been basically proven to be a worthless intelligence tool long before this?
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Dec 9, 2014 21:58
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CommieGIR posted:Hasn't torture been basically proven to be a worthless intelligence tool long before this? Admitted by the CIA no less.
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Dec 9, 2014 21:59
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NoEyedSquareGuy posted:As all this information trickles out of the report, I think it's a good time to remember that we all make mistakes sometimes, and it's important to focus on building a better future rather than dwelling on what has happened in the past. Thanks Obama.
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Dec 9, 2014 21:59
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http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/12/09/senate-panel-releases-scathing-report-on-cia-interrogation-amid-warnings/ fox news's report on this release should be studied in journalism school as the epitome of "burying the lede"
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Dec 9, 2014 22:03
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CommieGIR posted:Hasn't torture been basically proven to be a worthless intelligence tool long before this? Everybody says that but I don't think anybody actually believed or internalized that idea. Every form of entertainment media has always shown torture getting the desired information very quickly.
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Dec 9, 2014 22:05
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Mods, please change DnD's name to Debate and Discussion: We rectally fed some folks
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Dec 9, 2014 22:07
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Volkerball posted:We are holding the policy accountable for what it's side effects and consequences were, instead of just saying hooah, torture owns. The policy is on trial, not the people who were responsible for it. That's still really important. Even more so actually. Throwing someone in prison isn't going to un-waterboard anyone, but we can call for steps to prevent it from happening to others in the future, and now is the time to do that. If we refuse to punish anyone, then everyone at CIA/military/wherever will just happily do whatever the gently caress they want to whoever they want, because they know we'll just smile and sweep it all under the rug and promise to do better next time. Do better at preventing anyone from finding out about it in the first place, that is.
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Dec 9, 2014 22:07
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CommieGIR posted:Hasn't torture been basically proven to be a worthless intelligence tool long before this? Well I've certainly never heard of anyone failing to achieve their intelligence objective during this kind of inquisition.
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Dec 9, 2014 22:08
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Probably an obvious question, but is there any reason to perform the whole "rectal rehydration" procedure besides being able to laugh about how you just funneled a bunch of hummus up some guy's rear end?
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Dec 9, 2014 22:10
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NoEyedSquareGuy posted:Probably an obvious question, but is there any reason to perform the whole "rectal rehydration" procedure besides being able to laugh about how you just funneled a bunch of hummus up some guy's rear end? It accomplishes nothing that an IV couldn't.
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Dec 9, 2014 22:12
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Water is absorbed in the small intestine. If they're having trouble keeping it in their stomach then it's an effective way to rehydrate a person. Of course an IV would be better. also they liked doing buttstuff.
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Dec 9, 2014 22:12
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Cocoa Ninja posted:Indicting anyone in the state / defense departments or CIA for torture seems caught in an endless loop:
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Dec 9, 2014 22:13
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gvibes posted:Ah yes, we can't punish people if they were commanded to commit illegal acts. I'm sure the nazis would be comforted by that. No Social Security for CIA Agents Act
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Dec 9, 2014 22:14
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Speaking of Nazis, this article seems relevant again http://theatlantic.com/daily-dish/archive/2007/05/-versch-auml-rfte-vernehmung/228158/
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Dec 9, 2014 22:19
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Volkerball posted:Why would there be indictments? It was a government policy supported at all levels, even if the scale was unknown. They didn't just make this report for fun. Something can come of it in the future, and progress is being made on that front. When's the last time you saw north korea formally investigate its labor camps and release the report to the public? Aside from 'following orders isn't a defense', once the CIA began lying to Congress and the White House they forfeit the claim they were just following orders. Also, these were flagrantly illegal orders and one way you make sure that flagrantly illegal orders aren't followed in the future is to punish the people who do follow them. You also punish the people who give them, of course, but there's value in punishing the minons even if the architects escape justice.
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Dec 9, 2014 22:19
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Cocoa Ninja posted:Indicting anyone in the state / defense departments or CIA for torture seems caught in an endless loop: The Convention against torture specifically states that an order from a superior may not be used as a justification to carry out torture. The principle of individual criminal responsibility stands and you need to perform some serious back-flips to try to claim immunity from prosecution post-Pinochet.
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Dec 9, 2014 22:20
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Mr. Stingly posted:Everybody says that but I don't think anybody actually believed or internalized that idea. Every form of entertainment media has always shown torture getting the desired information very quickly. Oddly enough, I just watched an episode of comic book tv show Arrow where they're interrogating a bad guy -- he's expecting to be tortured, but then someone comes in and shows him they've accessed his bank accounts and they keeping withdrawing money until he talks. But that derail aside, yeah, I think most Americans just assumed this stuff was going on, it's an effective "science" like the report said, and they won't feel at all surprised or outraged by it. Hey, here's a pile of poo poo that accuses Feinstein of treason (of course): quote:Far from being mortified by water-boarding or sleep deprivation (for working Americans sleep deprivation is a normal state of affairs from holding down two jobs and multiple shifts to feed their families during the Reign of Obama), the folks I know back home in the Pennsylvania coal towns would skin terrorists alive then get out the salt shaker. Obama is too soft on terrorists also he's bad for drone striking them. quote:They have placed a higher value on the exaggerated “suffering” of barely human monsters than on the safety of our diplomats, our troops, our citizens abroad and our closest allies. (In Obamaworld-logic, it was a crime of the highest order to waterboard mass murderers, but it’s okay to kill them with drone strikes; speaking strictly for myself, I think I’d prefer waterboarding to death.)
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Dec 9, 2014 22:21
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:If we refuse to punish anyone, then everyone at CIA/military/wherever will just happily do whatever the gently caress they want to whoever they want, because they know we'll just smile and sweep it all under the rug and promise to do better next time. Which is why the whistleblower is going to be the only person experiencing any legal consequences from this fiasco. "Holding the policy accountable" being the best we can do is absolute horseshit. The policy and the people responsible should be held accountable. If the people responsible won't face consequences and they know it, what the hell is the incentive for this poo poo to stop?
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Dec 9, 2014 22:22
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gvibes posted:Ah yes, we can't punish people if they were commanded to commit illegal acts. I'm sure the nazis would be comforted by that. While I'm pretty sure you understand that I'm merely restating the public sentiment, not condoning it, I'll elaborate further. Improving our human rights record has little to do with individuals corrupting the system. Abu Ghraib was not a failure because of Lindy England. The problem is that political capital is spent attempting to formalize prosecution against minor players — and a few underlings going to military court 14 years after the fact does not create a deterrent effect. I think that political capital would be better spent bringing the issue into public dialogue and asking for more transparency from our government. This report being released is a good step 0. I think the political mood in the US may be shifting right now towards honest-to-God police reform; perhaps we can bundle greater military and intelligence oversight, the idea that these services are meant to serve the people and truly answer to them. Although I'm very pessimistic about that. This doesn't preclude prosecuting malfeasance, but it does ask us to keep our larger goal in mind — reforming systems of accountability themselves. The senate is so wildly inefficient at even running the government, we can't rely on them for jurisprudence. EDIT: I'll withdraw the word "wasted" because I agree, if we can truly prosecute, let's do it. I'll leave the feasibility and timeline of that to those that know more about the subject. Don't mean to give the impression I'm against following through on this report in particular.
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Dec 9, 2014 22:23
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evilweasel posted:Aside from 'following orders isn't a defense', once the CIA began lying to Congress and the White House they forfeit the claim they were just following orders. If I recall they went steps far beyond merely lying to Congress; such as blatantly hacking into Senate computers to delete information they didn't want to have seen in this report. I agree that everyone involved needs to be pinned treasured8elief fucked around with this message at 22:31 on Dec 9, 2014 |
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Dec 9, 2014 22:29
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Sharkie posted:I think most Americans just assumed this stuff was going on, it's an effective "science" like the report said, and they won't feel at all surprised or outraged by it. Also, it's super-common in all of our media. Jack Bauer being the most :rad: example. I think Americans have a thing for psychological torture. It's prolly an inherited thing from Germany. Is it this way in other places? I mean, I feel like most of us just say, "yea that sucks that they're still torturing people" and move on. Un-l337-Pork fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Dec 9, 2014 |
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Dec 9, 2014 22:31
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NoEyedSquareGuy posted:Probably an obvious question, but is there any reason to perform the whole "rectal rehydration" procedure besides being able to laugh about how you just funneled a bunch of hummus up some guy's rear end? Proctoclysis is incredibly rare in medical practice as far as I am aware. It's used in some developing countries if IV is unavailable and/or malnutrition is not treatable in any other way. Proctoclysis is sometimes used on severe burn patients where IV fluid replacement is less feasible ( go find a vein between al those burns). This is not a routine medical procedure, even if it is used on medical grounds in no way does it consist of grounding up dinner an administering the paste rectally. The only reason this was done I can think of is as a shame inducing tool. I sincerely hope that no MD would support this practice.
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Dec 9, 2014 22:31
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IAMNOTADOCTOR posted:Proctoclysis is incredibly rare in medical practice as far as I am aware. It's used in some developing countries if IV is unavailable and/or malnutrition is not treatable in any other way. Proctoclysis is sometimes used on severe burn patients where IV fluid replacement is less feasible ( go find a vein between al those burns). Well, shame and intense physical pain and damage.
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Dec 9, 2014 22:35
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It should also be noted that the CIA is currently, right now lying about facts the report covers: it is attempting to claim that torture was important in finding Bin Laden while the report specifically shows that is a lie.
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Dec 9, 2014 22:38
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Volkerball posted:Torture being effective or not was divided down partisan lines among the general public. All but the fringe left deemed it a necessary form of information gathering because it worked for Jack Bauer. Yes because propaganda works. It's been known for a very long time that it's not a good way to get information, but the USA government really digs torture for itself and it's allies. That should tell you something.
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Dec 9, 2014 22:44
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IAMNOTADOCTOR posted:Proctoclysis is incredibly rare in medical practice as far as I am aware. It's used in some developing countries if IV is unavailable and/or malnutrition is not treatable in any other way. Proctoclysis is sometimes used on severe burn patients where IV fluid replacement is less feasible ( go find a vein between al those burns). http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way...tm_term=nprnews quote:Rectal Infusion: The report says some detainees were subjected to rectal rehydration "without evidence of medical necessity, and that others were threatened with it." It adds that at least one of the suspects was rectally hydrated for "partially refusing fluids." The report says that CIA medical officers discussed the method's use as a means of behavior control. One medical officer noted: "[W]hile IV infusion is safe and effective,we were impressed with the ancillary effectiveness of rectal infucion on ending water refusal in a similar case."
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Dec 9, 2014 22:48
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Volkerball posted:Why would there be indictments? It was a government policy supported at all levels It's incredible how you think this rationale, while accurate, is defensible.
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Dec 9, 2014 23:03
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Zeitgueist posted:Yes because propaganda works. It's been known for a very long time that it's not a good way to get information, but the USA government really digs torture for itself and it's allies. So you're saying that popular American television programs have been used for right-wing to far-right propaganda for years?
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Dec 9, 2014 23:04
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The FBI and DHS have issued a joint statement that the release of this report could lead to additional terrorist threats against the US. CNN, helpful as always, is reporting on this by saying that the FBI and DHS have stated this statement.
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Dec 9, 2014 23:06
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Ardennes posted:So you're saying that popular American television programs have been used for right-wing to far-right propaganda for years? Possibly as justification for Supreme Court jurisprudence only.
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Dec 9, 2014 23:07
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Volkerball posted:We are holding the policy accountable for what it's side effects and consequences were, instead of just saying hooah, torture owns. The policy is on trial, not the people who were responsible for it. That's still really important. Even more so actually. Throwing someone in prison isn't going to un-waterboard anyone, but we can call for steps to prevent it from happening to others in the future, and now is the time to do that. Prosecuting a hitman won't bring his victims back to life, either. Let's not prosecute hitmen or the mafia dons who hire them, let's just make sure they never do it again by writing down some more superfluous laws we have no intention of enforcing or punishing anyone for breaking.
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Dec 9, 2014 23:09
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Ardennes posted:So you're saying that popular American television programs have been used for right-wing to far-right propaganda for years? You're probably doing  , but it's worth stating for the record: American popular culture almost universally depicts torture in a way that completely meshes with the neo-conservative view of it — a short-in-duration, tense progression of techniques, nearly always employed by good men in tough times (the "ticking time bomb" scenario), often disobeying orders in order to immediately produce actionable intelligence. The ends justify the means. Video games are also highly culpable in this depiction.
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Dec 9, 2014 23:10
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Ardennes posted:So you're saying that popular American television programs have been used for right-wing to far-right propaganda for years? Yes, absolutely: http://articles.latimes.com/2011/aug/21/entertainment/la-ca-military-movies-20110821 The DoD realized a very long time ago that TV and movies are very effective promotional tools.
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Dec 9, 2014 23:11
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Sharkie posted:Hey, here's a pile of poo poo that accuses Feinstein of treason (of course): Ah yes, I would love to be waterboarded to death over several hours than have my existence painlessly and abruptly ended by a massive explosion. Cocoa Ninja posted:This report being released is a good step 0. I think the political mood in the US may be shifting right now towards honest-to-God police reform; perhaps we can bundle greater military and intelligence oversight, the idea that these services are meant to serve the people and truly answer to them. Although I'm very pessimistic about that. I think someone said this exact thing back when the Human Right's Watch released their report on the American prison system circa 2010. Everyone was all enraged, but everything is all better now and prison is just like summercamp but with more gay sex.
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Dec 9, 2014 23:14
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Apparently during all this time the CIA was torturing, no one from the CIA went to give GW Bush a report for four whole years: http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nat...Nz1L/story.html
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Dec 9, 2014 23:16
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