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Rand alPaul posted:I find it very difficult to believe the president couldn't close Guantanamo Bay if he wished to. It's an illegal operation in a foreign country run by dubious intelligence services and the military. I don't think there's a clause in the constitution assigning those powers exclusively to the legislative branch. The problem is where to put the people in it. No one wants them, sending them back where they came from is a death sentence and the president is specifically barred from bringing them into the US unless he does some weird financial fuckery by attaching the cost to fees or something. It's basically just sitting there as we bribe minor nations to take some of the prisoners off of our hands. Like I guess if you just labeled the prisoners non-persons and left them sitting on a patch of dirt in Cuba we could have it wrapped up in a week, but outside of that it's difficult.
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Dec 15, 2014 07:36
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:The problem is where to put the people in it. No one wants them, sending them back where they came from is a death sentence and the president is specifically barred from bringing them into the US unless he does some weird financial fuckery by attaching the cost to fees or something. It's basically just sitting there as we bribe minor nations to take some of the prisoners off of our hands. Like I guess if you just labeled the prisoners non-persons and left them sitting on a patch of dirt in Cuba we could have it wrapped up in a week, but outside of that it's difficult. Like, we've managed to do something with ~600 of our Guantanamo prisoners, of those left we've chosen about 50 who we will hold 'indefinitely' and we just haven't decided on ~90. If we will not give our ~140 prisoners a trial or even charges, and if we cannot return them to their homes, I would rather we give them US citizenship and release them absolutely freely into America, with a large compensation payout, than keep them locked away. At the moment we are pretty much waiting for them to just disappear so we can finally just forget about them, and such a thing is unconscionable to me. treasured8elief fucked around with this message at 09:07 on Dec 15, 2014 |
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Dec 15, 2014 09:04
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This whole situation makes a certain post made in the Feminism thread (RIP) look tragically hilarious in retrospect:"Rhonyn Peacemaker posted:It is entirely simple. The United States' Technological, Cultural, Economic and Militaristic superiority grants it the right and privilege to be a normalizing force. The exportation of western culture and English as the language of business is simply our harbingers of this process. It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that the societal norms in America get to be held aloft because of our position of superiority, not out of nationalism or jingoism, but because of the objective analysis of our culture versus those that may attempt to pass judgement on us. Those that would judge us as an inferior culture have, definitively, atrocious behaviors and barbaric treatment of people in their population.
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Dec 15, 2014 09:11
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my dad posted:This whole situation makes a certain post made in the Feminism thread (RIP) look tragically hilarious in retrospect: Someone believes that USA is still the Police of the globe (just don't look too closely at its own Police). On a different note, Canada is still happily using the information provided by the CIA and their torture program. Just shows that we have no issues with the "benefits" of torture, we just refuse to do it ourselves. And the federal government is currently pretending that we're not complicit in this in any way. quote:Canadian agents may not have physically participated in CIA torture tactics, but Stephen Harper's claim that Canada played no role whatsoever misrepresents our relationship with U.S. spies, say a number of security analysts.
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Dec 15, 2014 09:20
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my dad posted:This whole situation makes a certain post made in the Feminism thread (RIP) look tragically hilarious in retrospect: Oh hey, look, a real live Nazi.
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Dec 15, 2014 13:01
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Anubis posted:Closing Gitmo was specifically banned by congress in such a way that Obama literally had no choice in the matter. Again, there are things to insult the man on but Gitmo really isn't one of them unless you somehow think he should have vetoed the spending bill and sent the country into default. Did Congress make him triple the number of people held in Bagram too? Guantanamo still has a black site. Lawyers and NGOs still do not have proper access to people held in Guantanamo. These people still don't get proper trials. Based on the facts, am I really to conclude there is not currently torture going on in Guantanamo?
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Dec 15, 2014 13:35
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quote:objective analysis of our culture  back to reddit with you e: wow there are some obtuse morons in that thread, wish I'd seen it when it was live rockopete fucked around with this message at 14:18 on Dec 15, 2014 |
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Dec 15, 2014 14:15
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Rand alPaul posted:Oh well I feel a lot better that the CIA Report is just the latest in a long series of America human rights abuses. Pfft, you don't even get to the good part. Like how there was standing orders after some soldiers were killed to slaughter any male above the age of ten in the area. 
Party Plane Jones fucked around with this message at 14:28 on Dec 15, 2014 |
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Dec 15, 2014 14:23
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ITT Americans realise THEY are now the British Empire, enjoy you rebellious rascals.
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Dec 15, 2014 15:49
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nopantsjack posted:ITT Americans realise THEY are now the British Empire, enjoy you rebellious rascals. Nah, they pussied out of doing it properly. You think the Empire would have withdrawn from the Philippines?
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Dec 15, 2014 16:08
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Party Plane Jones posted:Pfft, you don't even get to the good part. Like how there was standing orders after some soldiers were killed to slaughter any male above the age of ten in the area. Haha. It is good to see that we are sticking to our historical principles in Iraq and Afghanistan. Any male out of diapers is a potential enemy, shoot to kill. 
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Dec 15, 2014 16:53
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The man is an utter sociopath.
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Dec 15, 2014 16:58
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Anubis posted:I notice you like selective quoting to try and make it seem like I didn't know an unrealistic option of vetoing the already contentious spending bill existed. But hey, the tens of thousands that would likely die in the economic turmoil of a US default is just the price of moral high ground, right? Seriously, hate him for the reasons you should but the man did spend more political capital trying to close gitmo than any other national politician that I'm aware of, even if that isn't a high bar to step over.
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Dec 15, 2014 17:33
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mcmagic posted:The man is an utter sociopath. I'm looking forward to all the major candidates getting asked similar questions.
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Dec 15, 2014 17:40
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I'm looking forward to all the major candidates getting asked similar questions. Republican primary cheering the torture of innocents. That should be fun.
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Dec 15, 2014 18:07
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twodot posted:Sorry, I should have been clearer. Obama didn't need to veto anything to close Guantanamo. Closing Guantanamo is something the President has stroke of the pen authority to do. Congress made it so that these prisoners can't be transferred to the US, but that is not a necessary condition of closing the prison. To close the prison you need to put the prisoners somewhere else. Nowhere else was (immediately) available.
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Dec 15, 2014 18:10
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computer parts posted:Nowhere else was (immediately) available. For six years (and still counting)?
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Dec 15, 2014 18:15
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spacetoaster posted:For six years (and still counting)? We've dumped off tons of prisoners in the intervening 6 years, just not all of them (and then there's some we don't want to release).
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Dec 15, 2014 18:19
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computer parts posted:To close the prison you need to put the prisoners somewhere else. Nowhere else was (immediately) available.
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Dec 15, 2014 19:43
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computer parts posted:We've dumped off tons of prisoners in the intervening 6 years, just not all of them (and then there's some we don't want to release). What is "tons"? There are 30 that have been cleared for release by Obama's own team of investigators that have yet to be released.
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Dec 15, 2014 20:03
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spacetoaster posted:What is "tons"? Estimates I've seen are about 750 total prisoners (or since 9/11 anyway), and a report had about 550 there as of mid 2006. I don't believe the exact number was known when Obama took office but it's around 140 now (counting the ones we don't want released).
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Dec 15, 2014 20:11
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twodot posted:This also isn't true. You can just stop being a prison. Obviously it's not ideal to be stuck on base with no available transportation, but there is absolutely nothing forcing us to keep those people in cells. I also suspect that options for places to go will open up if we say "We shouldn't have put those people in prison, also they are not in prison anymore". Just leave the gates open one night with a truck idling in the driveway, map to Havana in the driver's seat. Problem solved.
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Dec 15, 2014 20:15
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computer parts posted:Estimates I've seen are about 750 total prisoners (or since 9/11 anyway), and a report had about 550 there as of mid 2006. I don't believe the exact number was known when Obama took office but it's around 140 now (counting the ones we don't want released). Well, that's something, at least. I still want the place shut down. If there isn't even enough evidence for a show military trial, why are we keeping them?
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Dec 15, 2014 20:39
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spacetoaster posted:Well, that's something, at least.
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Dec 15, 2014 20:42
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twodot posted:Assuming the government isn't run by literal super villains  Do you read the news? We're sitting at about a 50 to 1 ratio for innocents killed vs terrorists with drone strikes alone right now. And we've sent thousands of troops back to Iraq with more on the way.
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Dec 15, 2014 20:51
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The US government (specifically our intelligence services) is certainly run by villains, they just aren't super.
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Dec 15, 2014 20:59
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spacetoaster posted:
Still better than Dresden!
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Dec 15, 2014 21:08
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spacetoaster posted:Well, that's something, at least. Because we are a horrible country and Obama can't just wave his pen and move them somewhere else. Seriously, we are a horrible country and the majority of people want us to anal rape them all day every day. These horrible people elect representatives that agree with them so we have a lot of anal rape. I can't wait for the videos. You know there are videos. Democracy works!
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Dec 15, 2014 21:15
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Point: The CIA should be disbanded. Counterpoint: ???? Is there one?
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Dec 15, 2014 22:22
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mcmagic posted:Point: The CIA should be disbanded. Are freedoms? Terrorism! Sleeper cell over there not over here, enhanced interrogation? Protecting freedom "necessary evil" what about the guilty we released.
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Dec 15, 2014 22:23
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OwlFancier posted:Are freedoms? Hole in one. 
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Dec 15, 2014 22:28
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mcmagic posted:Point: The CIA should be disbanded. Our intelligence capability!  Also the NSA would become ridiculously bad.
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Dec 15, 2014 22:36
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Pohl posted:Because we are a horrible country and Obama can't just wave his pen and move them somewhere else. Actually, the CIA destroyed those videos during the whole scuffle with Feinstein's committee.
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Dec 15, 2014 22:39
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mcmagic posted:Point: The CIA should be disbanded. Most countries need intelligence agencies, especially countries as big and powerful as the States. The question is whether the CIA is so irreparably broken that you should just burn the whole thing down and start again.
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Dec 15, 2014 22:39
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Darth Walrus posted:Most countries need intelligence agencies, especially countries as big and powerful as the States. The question is whether the CIA is so irreparably broken that you should just burn the whole thing down and start again. There's also the real question of whether the CIA can actually be shut down. Reading Killing Hope one gets the idea they're some sort of autonomous narco-arms cartel.
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Dec 15, 2014 22:43
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Darth Walrus posted:Most countries need intelligence agencies, especially countries as big and powerful as the States. The question is whether the CIA is so irreparably broken that you should just burn the whole thing down and start again. This type of poo poo is a feature, not a bug 
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Dec 15, 2014 23:05
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twodot posted:Assuming the government isn't run by literal super villains, presumably they have evidence which would get thrown out at trial (torture coerced confessions), not that they literally have no evidence. Your secret evidence example is a torture coerced confession? 
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Dec 15, 2014 23:33
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I know it shouldn't, because the CIA being composed of awful sociopaths is nothing new, but this whole memo has me feeling legitimately down. Maybe a small part of me believed (wanted to believe?) that we still counted as a somewhat enlightened nation? I can't wait for the media to start using the cafe siege in Australia as proof positive that torture should be used to protect us
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Dec 15, 2014 23:37
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PhilippAchtel posted:Your secret evidence example is a torture coerced confession?
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Dec 15, 2014 23:40
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twodot posted:That seems most likely to me given what we know. There's obviously other ways to gather inadmissible evidence, they probably also have some hearsay evidence where they can't or aren't willing to produce the actual person for testimony. I'm unclear on the admissibility of evidence gathered without a warrant/probable cause oversea. I think the issue that you may be missing is that the reason evidence obtained through torture is not admissible in court is because it isn't actually evidence.
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Dec 15, 2014 23:42
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