Senate torture report

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Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

New Division posted:

Given that even the Church Commission ultimately failed to permanently tamp down CIA malfeasance, I don't know why anyone expects that they won't proceed to do similar things in the future. One thing's for sure, there's nothing resembling the Church Commission on the way. The general desire seems to be to quickly forget this or deny that it was even a bad thing.

I mean, the last 6-8 years indicate pretty clearly that the US isn't interested in capturing terrorists /torturing detainees anymore, it just kills them. That could change, but if you read some of the excerpted emails, they seemed to think it was way too messy and problematic pretty early on. It produced limited intelligence and resulted in dozens of detainees they had to hold onto indefinitely.

quote:

CTC Legal stated that the prospect that the CIA "could hold [detainees] forever" was "terrifying," adding, "[n]o
one wants to be in a position of being called back from retirement in however many years to go figure out what do
you do with so and so who still poses a threat." See November 13, 2001, Transcript of Staff Briefing on Covert
Action Legal Issues (DTS #2002-0629).

quote:

CIA draft talking points produced a month later state that transfer to Department of Defense or Department of Justice custody was the "preferred endgame
for 13 detainees currently in [CIA] control, none of whom we believe should ever leave USG custody."
[quote]

[quote]
"CIA urgently needs [the President of the United States] and Principals
Committee direction to establish a long-term disposition policy for the 12
High-Value detainees (HVD)s we hold in overseas detention sites. Our liaison
partners who host these sites are deeply concerned by [REDACTED]^�^ press
leaks, and they are increasingly skeptical of the [U.S. government's]
commitment to keep secret their cooperation.... A combination of press leaks,
international scrutiny of alleged [U.S. government] detainee abuse, and the
perception that [U.S. government] policy on detainees lacks direction is
eroding our partners' trust in U.S. resolve to protect their identities and
supporting roles. If a [U.S. government] plan for long-term [detainee]
disposition does not emerge soon, the handful of liaison partners who
cooperate may ask us to close down our facilities on their territory. Few
countries are willing to accept the huge risks associated with hosting a CIA
detention site, so shrinkage of the already small pool of willing candidates
could force us to curtail our highly successful interrogation and detention
program. Fear of public exposure may also prompt previously cooperative
liaison partners not to accept custody of detainees we have captured and
interrogated. Establishment of a clear, publicly announced [detainee]
'endgame' - one sanctioned by [the President of the United States] and
supported by Congress - will reduce our partners' concerns and rekindle their
enthusiasm for helping the US in the War on Terrorism."^^^

# ? Dec 10, 2014 00:57

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# ? May 15, 2024 22:39

Nonsense: Jan 26, 2007

poisonpill posted:

It's surprising how well funded everything was. I mean we shut down the space program but spent a billion dollars shoving food up prisoners' butts. I am floored at how much cash flowed so freely. All you need are like forty bucks of wire and a car battery or something

It's to grease the palms, and the government knows exactly how loving shady and horrific this all was(is).

# ? Dec 10, 2014 00:58

New Division: Jun 23, 2004; I beg to present to you as a Christmas gift, Mr. Lombardi, the city of Detroit.

Xandu posted:

I mean, the last 6-8 years indicate pretty clearly that the US isn't interested in capturing terrorists /torturing detainees anymore, it just kills them. That could change, but if you read some of the excerpted emails, they seemed to think it was way too messy and problematic pretty early on. It produced limited intelligence and resulted in dozens of detainees they had to hold onto indefinitely.

Given that the CIA was torturing their own informants, I'm not exactly filled with confidence that the assasination program is any more competently run.

Really, that program should not be considered any more justified than the torture/rendition efforts.

# ? Dec 10, 2014 01:05

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

It certainly has its own problems, I just doubt we're going to see another detainee program starting up any time soon.

# ? Dec 10, 2014 01:08

New Division: Jun 23, 2004; I beg to present to you as a Christmas gift, Mr. Lombardi, the city of Detroit.

Torture of detainees of interest is probably entirely outsourced to other countries these days instead of just mostly outsourced

# ? Dec 10, 2014 01:10

team overhead smash: Sep 2, 2006; Team-Forest-Tree-Dog:
Smashing your way into our hearts one skylight at a time

Under international law (Articles 7(1) (f) and (k), 8(2)(a)(ii) and (iii), 8(b)(xxi), and 8(c)(ii) of Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court for instance) any act of torture will constitute either a crime against humanity or a war crime. That's not to mention the basic morality that underpins those laws which has caused it to become part and parcel of the peremptory norms of customary international humanitarian law (CIHL), the body of law (recognised by every international legal body) that applies to all countries.

This is worth mentioning because torture is considered abominable enough that it carries universal jurisdiction (Part of CIHL, confirmed by the United Nations Security Council, article 146 of the Fourth Geneva Convention, articles 5 and 6 of the Convention against Torture, etc).

This means that countries can arrest people from other countries who are suspected of having committed torture or ill-treatment. Every single state is empowered to arrest, prosecute and extradite alleged perpetrators found on its soil. It doesn't matter where it took place, when it happened or the nationality of either victim or perpetrator. Now of course no-one is going to arrest Bush or Obama, but I know Bush cancelled a trip to Switzerland in 2011 out of fear of being arrested for war crimes and Israeli politicians have done the same with planned trips to the UK. If we're lucky a few of the more minor people involved might make the stupid mistake of going on holiday to Sweden or what have you and face the punishment they richly deserve.

# ? Dec 10, 2014 01:13

team overhead smash: Sep 2, 2006; Team-Forest-Tree-Dog:
Smashing your way into our hearts one skylight at a time

New Division posted:

Torture of detainees of interest is probably entirely outsourced to other countries these days instead of just mostly outsourced

Not entirely, but...

# ? Dec 10, 2014 01:16

Party Plane Jones: Jul 1, 2007; by Reene; Fun Shoe

How exactly is Guantanamo a secret CIA prison? :psyduck:

# ? Dec 10, 2014 01:19

pathetic little tramp: Dec 12, 2005; by Hillary Clinton's assassins; Fallen Rib

poisonpill posted:

It's surprising how well funded everything was. I mean we shut down the space program but spent a billion dollars shoving food up prisoners' butts. I am floored at how much cash flowed so freely. All you need are like forty bucks of wire and a car battery or something

Hey you can't put a price on some good buttfooding.

Edit: foodbutting. That's a better word. Let's hahstag that.

# ? Dec 10, 2014 01:19

Nonsense: Jan 26, 2007

Party Plane Jones posted:

How exactly is Guantanamo a secret CIA prison?

It is SOVEREIGN US TERRITORY :ssh:

edit: sounds cooler.

# ? Dec 10, 2014 01:19

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Party Plane Jones posted:

How exactly is Guantanamo a secret CIA prison?

They had their own secret annex.

# ? Dec 10, 2014 01:20

New Division: Jun 23, 2004; I beg to present to you as a Christmas gift, Mr. Lombardi, the city of Detroit.

Xandu posted:

They had their own secret annex.

I'm imagining an aluminum shack with a sign that says "SECRET CIA RECTAL-FEEDING UNIT"

# ? Dec 10, 2014 01:22

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Party Plane Jones posted:

How exactly is Guantanamo a secret CIA prison?

There's a secret CIV prison inside the non-secret military one.

Also an interesting note that the APA had already pointed out these psychologists aren't APA members and they would kick out any members who helped torture: http://www.apa.org/news/press/statements/texas-mitchell-letter.pdf

The letter is of course dated 2010.

# ? Dec 10, 2014 01:25

emfive: Aug 6, 2011; Hey emfive, this is Alec. I am glad you like the mummy eating the bowl of shitty pasta with a can of 'parm.' I made that image for you way back when. I’m glad you enjoy it.

New Division posted:

I'm imagining an aluminum shack with a sign that says "SECRET CIA RECTAL-FEEDING UNIT"

Well I'm imagining a future Senate hearing where a CIA operative, digitally obscured to protect his identity, sobs while recounting how much he's suffered from "touching and manipulating all those butts".

# ? Dec 10, 2014 01:26

wheez the roux: Aug 2, 2004; THEY SHOULD'VE GIVEN IT TO LYNCH

Death to the Seahawks. Death to Seahawks posters.

pathetic little tramp posted:

Hey you can't put a price on some good buttfooding.

Edit: foodbutting. That's a better word. Let's hahstag that.

It's called plugging. The CIA is full of TCC posters, everything is starting to make sense now

wheez the roux fucked around with this message at 03:51 on Dec 10, 2014

# ? Dec 10, 2014 01:33

kustomkarkommando: Oct 22, 2012

emfive posted:

Well I'm imagining a future Senate hearing where a CIA operative, digitally obscured to protect his identity, sobs while recounting how much he's suffered from "touching and manipulating all those butts".

I will bet good money that someone in the CIA authored a detailed document on the finer points of butt manipulation.

# ? Dec 10, 2014 01:34

NoEyedSquareGuy: Mar 16, 2009; Just because Liquor's dead, doesn't mean you can just roll this bitch all over town with "The Freedoms."

kustomkarkommando posted:

I will bet good money that someone in the CIA authored a detailed document on the finer points of butt manipulation.

"Avoiding Clots in your Hummus Bellows: Vol. 1"

# ? Dec 10, 2014 01:36

treasured8elief: Jul 25, 2011; Salad Prong

emfive posted:

Well I'm imagining a future Senate hearing where a CIA operative, digitally obscured to protect his identity, sobs while recounting how much he's suffered from "touching and manipulating all those butts".

A single session which lasted 24/7, ending on august 23'rd

_{_{_{213: Email from: [REDACTED]; to: [REDACTED]; subject: Greetings; date: August 11, 2002, at 09:45AM.}}}

# ? Dec 10, 2014 01:39

fade5: May 31, 2012; by exmarx

Relevant crosspost: there is absolutely no reason to anally "feed" someone via pureeing an already prepared meal. Nutrient absorption is majorly done in the Stomach/Small Intestine, not the Large Intestine, and doubly so if you're using a puree of already-prepared food instead of a nutrient-rich paste like Ensure.

If you really, absolutely have to give someone nutrients without an IV then you shove a feeding tube down their throat and give them that nutrient paste/Ensure via the tube. This is still unpleasant in the best circumstances, and probably qualifies as torture if it's done unwillingly like when it was done in response to the hunger strikes in Guantanamo, but that time at least had a slightly valid justification for being done, namely "preventing the hunger strikers from dying of starvation".

What the CIA did to that dude was flat out rape and torture, and nothing is going to be done about it. :smith:

# ? Dec 10, 2014 01:54

New Division: Jun 23, 2004; I beg to present to you as a Christmas gift, Mr. Lombardi, the city of Detroit.

This new report by Channel 4 in Britain is very timely. Looks like the CIA has been supervising torture in Somalia.

http://www.channel4.com/news/somalia-torture-united-states-cia-al-shabaab-video

http://www.thenation.com/article/161936/cias-secret-sites-somalia

# ? Dec 10, 2014 02:12

MariusLecter: Sep 5, 2009; NI MUERTE NI MIEDO

fade5 posted:

Relevant crosspost: there is absolutely no reason to anally "feed" someone via pureeing an already prepared meal. Nutrient absorption is majorly done in the Stomach/Small Intestine, not the Large Intestine, and doubly so if you're using a puree of already-prepared food instead of a nutrient-rich paste like Ensure.

If you really, absolutely have to give someone nutrients without an IV then you shove a feeding tube down their throat and give them that nutrient paste/Ensure via the tube. This is still unpleasant in the best circumstances, and probably qualifies as torture if it's done unwillingly like when it was done in response to the hunger strikes in Guantanamo, but that time at least had a slightly valid justification for being done, namely "preventing the hunger strikers from dying of starvation".

What the CIA did to that dude was flat out rape and torture, and nothing is going to be done about it.

Surgeon General on eating rectally posted:

And the immediate research shows that the act is not only amusing, but in fact much healthier for our bodies than the old way of eating. You see, food entering
the anus has the benefit of being broken down on its way to the stomach rather than afterward. And therefore I believe that interectogestion would actually put a stop to high cholesterol and most kinds of stomach cancers. And I base that on absolutely nothing.

# ? Dec 10, 2014 02:13

emfive: Aug 6, 2011; Hey emfive, this is Alec. I am glad you like the mummy eating the bowl of shitty pasta with a can of 'parm.' I made that image for you way back when. I’m glad you enjoy it.

I was about to post something about drone technology being used to swim up the intestines against peristalsis but I simultaneously

realized it was really stupid and
realized that somebody in the CIA probably thought of that

# ? Dec 10, 2014 02:25

Dilkington: Aug 6, 2010; "Al mio amore Dilkington, Gennaro"

A lot of books worth adding to your reading list in this article:

quote:

Best Defense

I don�t believe a word of what torture advocates say�and neither should you

By Lt. Col. Douglas A. Pryer, U.S. Army

Best Defense guest columnist

News sources are reporting that the long-awaited release of the summary of the Senate Intelligence Committee report on the CIA�s torture program is just days away. Thanks to anonymous sources, we already know some of what this summary will say: �enhanced� interrogation techniques (EITS) yielded little, if any significant intelligence, and the CIA misled the government and the public about both the severity of its methods and this program�s success.

Predictably, torture�s acolytes are already responding: The report was a Republican witch hunt led by Democratic Senator Dianne Feinstein. Facts were selectively culled by partisan staffers in order to paint the program in the worst possible light. Other staffers could�ve selected different facts and reached completely opposite conclusions. Sure, there were problems with the program, but these techniques really did �work.� They saved lives. Someday, the truth will be revealed, and the men and women who performed this �hard, dirty work� for good ends will be lauded as the true heroes they are. In the mean time, trust us regarding this program�s success. WE KNOW.

Hogwash. I�ve never believed a word of what torture�s advocates say, and neither should you.

When helping to manage interrogation operations for the 1st Armored Division (1AD) in Baghdad from Jul-Nov 2003, I regularly asked the interrogation cell at Abu Ghraib to re-interrogate former 1AD prisoners. This was at the height of Abu Ghraib�s use of EITs and committing other notorious abuse�abuse I had zero idea was occurring. The EITs employed at Abu Ghraib included forced nudity, cold temperatures, sleep deprivation, and the use of military working dogs.

Today, I judge any tactic designed to inflict physical or mental pain severe enough to �break� someone to be �torture.� As I look back on my experiences then, I have to conclude that I unwittingly contributed to torture. It bothers me today that I was part of the causal chain that led to the torture of maybe a hundred Iraqis, some of whom may not have even been insurgents (at least not before they were tortured).

Now, this is important: not once during this period did my Division receive any useful intelligence from Abu Ghraib. We received a few reports that Abu Ghraib interrogators seemed to think contained useful intelligence, but they contained nothing of substance that wasn�t contained in earlier reports. It was a mystery to me then why our interrogators in Baghdad produced actionable intelligence nearly every day but those at Abu Ghraib produced nothing of value�not little of value, NOTHING of value.

Still, I acknowledge that torture very occasionally produces desirable tactical information. For example, our Division Interrogation Facility (DIF) interrogated a young 16- or 17-year-old Iraqi kid who, when questioned by the brigade who had captured him, had talked about a former Iraqi colonel who was paying him to lay IEDs. When the brigade inspected the colonel�s house, they learned the kid had told the truth. However, when DIF interrogators questioned the kid, he clammed up. He refused to even talk to us. When I later took command of the intelligence company supporting this brigade, I was told that, during the time period this kid was questioned, this brigade had tortured certain prisoners. One battalion had threatened to feed some prisoners to lions. (This made the news in late 2005, to our nation�s shame.) At the brigade detention facility, at least one mock execution had occurred involving fake blood. None of these illicit interrogations involved professional interrogators.

Today, I suspect this kid was tortured. Army doctrine has long said that interrogators should employ fear only as a last resort because fear eventually leads subjects to refuse to cooperate with interrogators. And that kid certainly refused to cooperate with DIF interrogators. It also explains other facts, such as strange conversations I had with a captain in that brigade�s S2 shop.

But, if true, is this an example where torture worked when a rapport-based approach could not have worked? Absolutely not. Simply because this kid didn�t respond to rapport-based approaches after he had been tortured doesn�t mean he wouldn�t have responded to the right rapport-based approaches before he was tortured. Believing that only torture could�ve worked is a version of the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy�because something followed something, it must be the only possible cause of the thing. I believe the kid would�ve ended up telling a lot more if he had been questioned from the beginning by a skillful professional interrogator. In fact, we may have even been able to recruit him to serve as a spy.

Some may argue that the reason military interrogators at Abu Ghraib weren�t effective was because they weren�t professional torturers. As Tony Lagouranis, an Army interrogator suffering PTSD from his experiences with torture at Abu Ghraib, Al Asad, and Mosul, said: �Of course, we never succeed in actually brainwashing anyone . . . Probably someone in this chain is a real professional, and if torture works�which is debatable�maybe they had the training to make sure it worked. But at our end of the chain, we had no idea what we were doing. We were just a bunch of frustrated enlisted men picking approved techniques off a menu . . . We were . . . acting like badasses when, in the dark art of torture, we were really just a bunch of rank amateurs.�

So, for these techniques to work at all, they need to be institutionalized. You need extensive training, and you need a lot of practice on real subjects. One hypothetical solution would be to expand Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape (SERE) schools to serve as farms for professional torturers. One cautionary flag this raises, though, involves the number of amateurs who have gone through SERE schools as trainees, came away convinced that these techniques worked, and then went forth to employ these techniques to deleterious strategic and tactical effects abroad: such a solution would no doubt expand this problem. A much larger flag consists of what institutionalizing torture would do�has done, hopefully temporarily�to Americans� and the world�s notions of whom America is as a nation.

Do we really want to raise and wave such flags so that we can implement illegal techniques that, at best, do not work nearly as effectively as legal techniques?

I know, I know. I need to be careful of particularism, extrapolating too much from specific examples, in this case, personal experiences. But while trying to make sense of my own experiences, I�ve also read extensively on the subject, and all that I�ve read reinforces the same conclusion: torture is an immensely impractical intelligence-gathering tool. Professional interrogators who have become truly expert at employing rapport-based approaches decry torture�s effectiveness as an intelligence-gathering tool. Yes, you sometimes get the truth, but this truth is rarely substantial and is typically buried in what I�ve heard professional interrogators call �the longest list of lies in the world.�

Those who claim that torture has more chance of success than rapport-based approaches have limited (if any) direct experience with these approaches. They�re rarely real interrogators. Emphasizing the superiority of rapport-based approaches are such memoirs as Stu Herrington�s �Stalking the Vietcong,� Matt Alexander�s �How to Break a Terrorist,� Ali Soufan�s �Black Banners,� Orrin DeForest�s �Slow Burn,� and Eric Maddox�s �Mission: Black List #1.� Histories like �The History of Camp Tracy� and �The Interrogator: The Story of Hanns Joachim Scharff� teach the same lesson.

When the 9/11 attacks took place, nearly 3000 Americans lost their lives, and so many Americans lost their minds, U.S. Army interrogation doctrine (as expressed in the 1987 Intelligence Interrogation manual) had it right: �Experience indicates that . . . the use of force is a poor technique, as it yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear.� Unfortunately, this doctrine�which reflected the practical experience of generations of interrogators�was thrown away by arrogant amateurs who thought they knew more than the professionals.

The question of �does it work� aside, there are HUGE strategic drawbacks to torture, such as how it undermines the rule of law, corrupts those who use it, undercuts military training, cedes moral high ground to our nation�s enemies, creates distrust among allies, sows dissension at home, serves as a source of recruits and donations for our nation�s enemies, creates irreconcilable enemies, and makes the ultimate goal of any conflict�its peaceful resolution�increasingly difficult.

Quite simply, for a mature democracy in the information age, there may be no surer tool for prolonging conflicts and shaping defeat than employing torture.

I don�t doubt that those who support our nation�s use of torture mean well. Regardless of what torture looks like in practice, they imagine ticking nuclear bombs and prophetic interrogators who know that, with that ticking bomb rapidly counting down, inflicting severe pain is the only possible way to get a bomber to tell where that bomb is. (Forget trying to get a skilled interrogator, a moderate religious authority, a member of the organization who has �turned,� the bomber�s loved ones, etc., to convince the bomber to talk.) But we mustn�t equate good intentions with knowledge or wisdom. Clearly, these well-meaning, patriotic souls have been duped by distorted reporting, their own unquestioned political allegiances, and far too many bad movies and novels.

Lieutenant Colonel Douglas A. Pryer is an active-duty counterintelligence officer who has deployed to Kosovo, Afghanistan, and Iraq. He has published one book and numerous essays on interrogation and other aspects of the human domain of war. The views expressed in this article are those of the author and do not reflect the official policy or position of the Department of the Army, Department of Defense, or the U.S. government.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2014/12/05/i-dont-believe-a-word-of-what-torture-advocates-say-and-neither-should-you/

# ? Dec 10, 2014 02:52

Hobologist: May 4, 2007; We'll have one entire section labelled "for degenerates"

CommieGIR posted:

Hasn't torture been basically proven to be a worthless intelligence tool long before this?

Probably around when Galileo gave us the useful intelligence that the sun actually does go around the Earth.

# ? Dec 10, 2014 03:19

MariusLecter: Sep 5, 2009; NI MUERTE NI MIEDO

Dilkington posted:

A lot of books worth adding to your reading list in this article:

http://foreignpolicy.com/2014/12/05/i-dont-believe-a-word-of-what-torture-advocates-say-and-neither-should-you/

Good article

# ? Dec 10, 2014 03:24

Tezzor: Jul 29, 2013; Can't post for 3 years!

If you want evidence that torture produces bad intelligence note the disclosure from this very report that the Iraq War was predicated at least partially on bad intelligence gained by torture.

# ? Dec 10, 2014 03:28

SpiderHyphenMan: Apr 1, 2010; by Fluffdaddy

Tezzor posted:

If you want evidence that torture produces bad intelligence note the disclosure from this very report that the Iraq War was predicated at least partially on bad intelligence gained by torture.

They had laughed when they injected into his butt, but who's laughing now?

# ? Dec 10, 2014 03:59

woke wedding drone: Jun 1, 2003; by exmarx; Fun Shoe

Oh look (I already knew this but), psychologists implicated in profoundly unethical government collusion again? What's that? Psychology isn't rigorous enough to define its own ethical standards? I guess you have a point.

# ? Dec 10, 2014 04:01

TEAYCHES: Jun 23, 2002

Those who are responsible for these crimes will be prosecuted under the United Nations Convention Against Torture.

I believe all accused will be afforded a fair and open trial to determine their guilt or innocence under the United Nations Convention Against Torture, which was ratified by Congress in 1994.

# ? Dec 10, 2014 04:04

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

SedanChair posted:

Oh look (I already knew this but), psychologists implicated in profoundly unethical government collusion again? What's that? Psychology isn't rigorous enough to define its own ethical standards? I guess you have a point.

As the APA letter from 2010 I posted earlier pointed out, had these "psychologist" been a member of the professional association for psychologists they would have clearly violated the ethics guidelines and been kicked out.

# ? Dec 10, 2014 04:04

Torka: Jan 5, 2008

SpiderHyphenMan posted:

They had laughed when they injected into his butt, but who's laughing now?

Still them, since everybody involved is getting away scot free

# ? Dec 10, 2014 04:04

TEAYCHES: Jun 23, 2002

The United States of America ratified a UN law preventing us from rendering prisoners to nations which we expected would be tortured. We also tortured some folks ourselves.

We will prosecute those responsible for these gross breaches of law and trust. There is going to be a trial and we will convict those who ordered and oversaw torture.

# ? Dec 10, 2014 04:08

woke wedding drone: Jun 1, 2003; by exmarx; Fun Shoe

Trabisnikof posted:

As the APA letter from 2010 I posted earlier pointed out, had these "psychologist" been a member of the professional association for psychologists they would have clearly violated the ethics guidelines and been kicked out.

Yeah and you get to stroll around and be one anyway.

# ? Dec 10, 2014 04:11

Homura and Sickle: Apr 21, 2013

TEAYCHES posted:

The United States of America ratified a UN law preventing us from rendering prisoners to nations which we expected would be tortured. We also tortured some folks ourselves.

We will prosecute those responsible for these gross breaches of law and trust. There is going to be a trial and we will convict those who ordered and oversaw torture.

i know you're trolling but it's so removed from the realm of possibility that anyone could believe this it lacks punch

# ? Dec 10, 2014 04:11

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

SedanChair posted:

Yeah and you get to stroll around and be one anyway.

And there are doctors acting like that too, heck they were at the black sites as well. This isn't the case for pushing your agenda on this one, except in so much as the CIA will hire anyone.

# ? Dec 10, 2014 04:14

poisonpill: Nov 8, 2009; The only way to get huge fast is to insult a passing witch and hope she curses you with Beast-strength.

TEAYCHES posted:

Those who are responsible for these crimes will be prosecuted under the United Nations Convention Against Torture.

I believe all accused will be afforded a fair and open trial to determine their guilt or innocence under the United Nations Convention Against Torture, which was ratified by Congress in 1994.

I think we all needed a good joke to lighten the mood.

# ? Dec 10, 2014 04:17

TEAYCHES: Jun 23, 2002

Jagchosis posted:

i know you're trolling but it's so removed from the realm of possibility that anyone could believe this it lacks punch

The United States of America believes in international cooperation and the rule of law.

We will enforce our own laws and hold accountable those who allowed this torture to occur. They will be held accountable through our independent judicial system. This is a testament to a society which holds values in direct opposition to the unfortunate revelations of today.

# ? Dec 10, 2014 04:18

Stultus Maximus: Dec 21, 2009; USPOL May

TEAYCHES posted:

The United States of America ratified a UN law preventing us from rendering prisoners to nations which we expected would be tortured. We also tortured some folks ourselves.

We will prosecute those responsible for these gross breaches of law and trust. There is going to be a trial and we will convict those who ordered and oversaw torture.

And as a properly ratified treaty, the UN Convention Against Torture requires Barack Obama and Eric Holder to prosecute those responsible - they have declared that torture did take place.
I'm sure that they will carry out their Constitutionally mandated duty to prosecute, at very least because the opposition party is very adamant that the executive carry out Constitutionally obligated laws.

# ? Dec 10, 2014 04:19

Communist Thoughts: Jan 7, 2008; Our war against free speech cannot end until we silence this bronze beast!

https://www.emptywheel.net/2014/12/08/the-debate-about-torture-were-not-having-exploitation/

This article is worth reading, basically, torture was never about intel, any child can tell that it wouldn't work for that.

What it is handy for though is false confessions for when you need "proof" for a Casus Belli or to further political goals and it was also used as an attempt to coerce victims into becoming CIA moles. Which makes sense when you consider the absolute shambles the CIAs Iraq network was in. They were desperate for agents.

Its all part of the Western establishments' obsession with control and dominance. This really comes out in the propaganda released when they were still hiding this stuff, it was all portrayed as post-torture scientific and psychological techniques far advanced beyond the brutal methods of the savage nations. Like that quote where hes like "even such a small thing as a family photo" and how its an "art and science".

e: And for these things it was incredibly successful, everyone got to make shitloads of money having a war or torturing people and nobody is going to prison. People thinking it wont happen again because this proves it was ineffective or "too costy" are wrong, too costy in particular just means "gave lots of money to rich companies" it is a plus not a minus.

# ? Dec 10, 2014 04:20

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# ? May 15, 2024 22:39

Rygar201: Jan 26, 2011; I AM A TERRIBLE PIECE OF SHIT.

Please Condescend to me like this again.

Oh yeah condescend to me ALL DAY condescend daddy.

Barack Obama Account spotted

# ? Dec 10, 2014 04:21

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Senate torture report

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