Senate torture report

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Senate torture report

Ms Adequate: Oct 30, 2011; Baby even when I'm dead and gone
You will always be my only one, my only one
When the night is calling
No matter who I become
You will always be my only one, my only one, my only one
When the night is calling

Papercut posted:

This is not a productive line of debate because as pointed out above, it implicitly acknowledges that there could be circumstances under which torture is justified. It's taking the bait of the "saved thousands of lives!" line.

The only thing that matters is that what was done was illegal and the people who broke the law need to be held accountable.

To be fair though, there are some circumstances where torture really is justified.

For example: Being a CIA informant, cooperating with the FBI, the desperate testimony of someone else who has been tortured, being related to someone else who is being tortured, when the VP needs to fabricate a casus belli, or being one of the 20% of people who get picked up at random and have nothing to do with anything. Also people who abuse animals, but I totes admit that is rooted in personal anger and serves no real purpose outside of my own desire for vengeance.

Seriously though, the whole point of principles is that you stick to them even when it's tough. If you just throw your hands up and say "gently caress that, I am angry and/or scared" you don't really have principles, just soundbites. By the same token, even if torture was effective for intelligence purposes, if we want to be the good guys, we have to forego that advantage even if it creates greater risks. If that means we get hit more, well, fine - we can take it. The only foe to pose a true danger today is the erosion of our own values, and we capitulated to that without a fight.

# ¿ Dec 12, 2014 04:35

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# ¿ May 14, 2024 18:09

Ms Adequate: Oct 30, 2011; Baby even when I'm dead and gone
You will always be my only one, my only one
When the night is calling
No matter who I become
You will always be my only one, my only one, my only one
When the night is calling

Terrible as the western business is, we have a long way to go before we beat S-21 or anything. We might be best funded, but that's largely because we gave so much money to self-proclaimed experts and did it all fancy with black sites all over the globe.

# ¿ Dec 12, 2014 16:26

Ms Adequate: Oct 30, 2011; Baby even when I'm dead and gone
You will always be my only one, my only one
When the night is calling
No matter who I become
You will always be my only one, my only one, my only one
When the night is calling

IAMNOTADOCTOR posted:

[i]Jamil el-Banna said that he was offered $10 million, and a US passport by US agents, if he would testify against Abu Qatada.

You really, truly have to gently caress up if you get to a place where this kind of offer is thrown back in your face. That kind of deal would make most free people swear on a stack of The God Delusions that they heard Elvis admit to the Kennedy assassination, but this dude was so hosed over he just told them to get hosed. Either he already knew it was bullshit or he was so pissed he was willing to spite them.

It's not like bribes don't work, they are a staple of the field, just make sure your people are comfortable and they will do what you ask.

loving Christ.

# ¿ Dec 12, 2014 20:49

Ms Adequate: Oct 30, 2011; Baby even when I'm dead and gone
You will always be my only one, my only one
When the night is calling
No matter who I become
You will always be my only one, my only one, my only one
When the night is calling

Miltank posted:

Has there been a good write up of our various atrocities yet? I'm looking for a good read to send my dad.

What, like, all of them? That's a long-rear end list. I think the only countries with remotely manageable lists of atrocities are those too young and/or small to be in the game, but even the few dozen people on the Pitcairn Islands have some dark poo poo, so I don't even loving know.

# ¿ Dec 14, 2014 03:56

Ms Adequate: Oct 30, 2011; Baby even when I'm dead and gone
You will always be my only one, my only one
When the night is calling
No matter who I become
You will always be my only one, my only one, my only one
When the night is calling

Rent-A-Cop posted:

Nothing surprising about that opinion. Cheney has always been a "Collateral damage is to be expected." kind of a guy. Really he's just giving voice to the standards everyone was and still is operating under.

I can understand the attitude in wartime because, well, the whole point is to be such a dick that the other guy gives up, but I would prefer the intelligence community was the careful and precise scalpel they sell themselves as, not doing a Keystone Kops routine that is actively harmful to western security.

# ¿ Dec 14, 2014 22:35

Ms Adequate: Oct 30, 2011; Baby even when I'm dead and gone
You will always be my only one, my only one
When the night is calling
No matter who I become
You will always be my only one, my only one, my only one
When the night is calling

nopantsjack posted:

ITT Americans realise THEY are now the British Empire, enjoy you rebellious rascals.

Nah, they pussied out of doing it properly. You think the Empire would have withdrawn from the Philippines?

# ¿ Dec 15, 2014 16:08

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# ¿ May 14, 2024 18:09

Ms Adequate: Oct 30, 2011; Baby even when I'm dead and gone
You will always be my only one, my only one
When the night is calling
No matter who I become
You will always be my only one, my only one, my only one
When the night is calling

Quasimango posted:

http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/unidentified-queen-torture
Amazingly, perhaps, more than thirteen years after the 9/11 attacks, no one at the C.I.A. has ever been publicly held responsible for this failure. Evidently, the C.I.A. was adamant in its negotiations with the White House and the Senate Intelligence Committee that the American public never learn the names of anyone directly involved in this failure.

This is my favorite part of all. The idea that the President and SIC have to 'negotiate' with the CIA over anything, instead of just giving orders and having them followed. It's the most :magical:

line I've yet seen about this whole catastrofuck, and it really drives home how out of control the CIA are.

# ¿ Dec 19, 2014 20:03

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Senate torture report