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In this thread we'll discuss Ancient I've made a lot of Pho over the years, and it's mostly been disappointing. However, since I found Kenji's Food Lab post on this topic, I think it's starting to come together. If you've never tried making Pho before, Kenji's primer is way better than I could hope to make myself. Start there. Meat: Shin/shank is the key. It has a good balance of connective tissue, bone marrow, and deep beefy flavor, plus it's one of the cheapest beef cuts. Oxtails are good too but way too expensive. Bones: Good for body, although by themselves they don't make a deep beefy broth. Use in conjunction with lots of shank. Aromatics: Charred ginger and onions. Go nuts. I've never been able to put in too much. I think it may not be possible. Spices: Toast them first. Some flavor compounds are fat soluble, so simmer in the stock after defatting. If you're using bones in your broth you'll definitely want to defat. Kenji recommends star anise, fennel, cloves, coriander, and cinnamon. Use Saigon cinnamon if possible. It makes a difference. Lots of other spices you can use too, like cardamom. Time: A lot of Pho recipes call for simmering the broth for 8+ hours. I don't really think that's necessary, as you'll get most of the beefy goodness out of your bones/meat after 3-4 hours. At that point the connective tissue should be liquid and sticky, which is just what you want. Misc: Yellow rock sugar. This poo poo tastes just like normal sugar. Lots of recipes say it's indispensable but I don't believe that. I think there might be a better sweetener than table sugar. I'm going to try honey and/or palm sugar in the future. I used about 2 lbs of bones, 4lbs shank and 1lb brisket on my last batch. I don't think the brisket brings much to the broth, so you could safely just use bones and shank.
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Dec 11, 2014 23:16
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One technique I see floated around a bit is using ground beef to build up the stock's flavor, then discarding it after a long simmer. Not too different from how you would do a consomme. If you make your broth a day in advance of when you intend to use it, you can go the extra mile of fishing out the solidified fat and then use egg whites in a raft to lift out the ground beef and so on. Some herbs are a little difficult if you don't live in the right places. Cilantro, mint, sprouts, scallions, and chile are easy. Generally your best bet at getting thai or holy/tulsi basil fresh is in the summer. Genovese or sweet basil really doesn't do. Culantro, also called ngò gai, Mexican cilantro, and eryngo, is pretty similar in flavor to cilantro (obviously) and looks like a sawtoothed leaf. I kind of prefer its mellower flavor and general lack of grit, but since I have had no success in cultivating it, I stick with coriander. Kinh gioi, also called Vietnamese balm, has a flavor that's like a midpoint between lemon balm and spearmint. If you can get it, try it instead of regular mint. Kinh gioi is easy to grow and works wonders in cocktails and teas, so if you get a big sprig of that mint, try to sprout it. My area has seen a lot of tainted sprouts lately, so I figure I might try blanching mine from now on. It might be heresy.
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Dec 12, 2014 00:35
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The ground beef idea sounds interesting. The consommé egg raft sounds like a PITA. I honestly can't tell the difference between culantro and cilantro, except that the latter is always super fresh here. There are a few Asian grocers that sell Thai basil. I've never seen holy basil for sale though.
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Dec 12, 2014 00:43
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Egg raft really isn't so bad, actually. I found it less painful (literally) than trying to pour hot stock through layers of cheesecloth packed in my tiny sieve. It also gives you a beautifully clear stock just as advertised! Growing thai and tulsi basil is a more reliable supply method in general, but I see thai basil year round in little Asian grocery stores and only super rarely in chain grocers (but more reliably than fresh marjoram). In the summer it crops up at farmers' markets. You'll find culantro in some of those little grocers sometimes. It seems to come and go around here in RI. I like it better because it doesn't go bad as quickly in my experience and it tends to not hold onto grit as much as the frills of cilantro do. A lot of the techniques for pho stock are pretty much the same as for making any clear stock, but they also work really well towards making an aspic (especially if you do use bones and lots of 'em). Then you can go all  and put your chilled stock cubes in dumpling wrappers and steam them and have soup dumplings  but that's a topic for the Chinese cuisine thread. (Making pho will beef up all your skills!)
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Dec 12, 2014 01:26
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posh spaz posted:I've made a lot of Pho over the years, and it's mostly been disappointing. However, since I found Kenji's Food Lab post on this topic, I think it's starting to come together.
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Dec 12, 2014 01:49
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edit: IMO the One True Pho is with it all. Pho Dac Biet with brisket, tendon, tripe, flank, and meatballs. And I guess rare steak. Personally I think the rare steak is the weakest of phomeats. People who get the rare steak only pho make me so sad.RedTonic posted:One technique I see floated around a bit is using ground beef to build up the stock's flavor, then discarding it after a long simmer. Not too different from how you would do a consomme. If you make your broth a day in advance of when you intend to use it, you can go the extra mile of fishing out the solidified fat and then use egg whites in a raft to lift out the ground beef and so on. The thing I would have a problem with with ground beef is the boil drain rinse step to keep the impurities out and keep the broth clear. Other than that I think it's probably fine. Bones provide the unctuous mouthfeel and texture but the meat like the brisket and ground beef would provide the meaty beef flavor. I think the ratio of bone to meat is a lot more important than a lot of people put on. My fav accoutrement for pho is nuoc beo, the skimmed seasoned beef fat with scallions that you can add back to your nice lean pho so your cardiologist gets mad at you. GrAviTy84 fucked around with this message at 02:26 on Dec 12, 2014 |
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Dec 12, 2014 02:24
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When you make it at home just don't skim so much fat.  Here's a pho write-up I did: http://goonswithspoons.com/Beef_Noodle_Soup_-_Pho_%28Ph%E1%BB%9F_b%C3%B2%29 For herbs, green onion and cilantro go in the bowl before the broth is ladled in. Thai/Holy basil and culantro comes in the veg platter. Culantro is definitely distinct. Mint instead of basil is more old school Northern pho, I personally don't really favor it. I liken the various meat choices for a bowl of pho to selecting what cuts of meat you want in a sandwich. Missing any doesn't make something incomplete (unless you're making a specific sandwich) but you can certainly have a selection that is a bit boring.
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Dec 12, 2014 03:05
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"Everything pho" seems to be a restaurant thing, all the vietnamese home cooks I know just wave their hand and throw in a chicken and maybe one other thing and call it a day.
Steve Yun fucked around with this message at 03:13 on Dec 12, 2014 |
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Dec 12, 2014 03:11
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GrAviTy84 posted:edit: IMO the One True Pho is with it all. Pho Dac Biet with brisket, tendon, tripe, flank, and meatballs. And I guess rare steak. Personally I think the rare steak is the weakest of phomeats. People who get the rare steak only pho make me so sad. Thank god. I held so much guilt over the fact that I felt like rare steak in my pho bowl was just taking up room better meats could be in. Personally, I think having different textures of meats is super important for the right experience of pho but if I had to choose, I'd say tendon and brisket are my must haves.
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Dec 12, 2014 03:23
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Rurutia posted:Thank god. I held so much guilt over the fact that I felt like rare steak in my pho bowl was just taking up room better meats could be in. Personally, I think having different textures of meats is super important for the right experience of pho but if I had to choose, I'd say tendon and brisket are my must haves. Same
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Dec 12, 2014 03:43
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I'm an idiot americaneese Guy Fieri (gently caress him) tastes person, but the best pho I ever had was duck pho at the only place in Berkeley by the marina open past 1am. You knew it was good because all the cops were eating there. It was spicy, sweet, garlicky, and had slices of candy-like duck. It was also my last night in California. I was also a little drunk and super hungry. I've been trying ever since then to replicate that flavor. I've gotten kinda close! I use chicken stock, because that's what I always have on hand. Bloom the spices (clove, cinnamon, and fennel, cant get fresh anise for some reason here) fry (not char, this is not stock making at this point) the onions in the spices and fat, add chicken stock and water to heat. Rehydrate some dried mushrooms in the broth while you cook the pho noodles in a separate pot. Add broth and noodles to bowl, a spoonful of Sambal, then soy sauce, lime, fish sauce, and brown sugar to taste. I don't add straight chilli oil at this point, because that poo poo hurts when you slurp. I tried doing a legit pho stock with beef shin but it turned out pretty watery. Probably because I lost most of the marrow in the par-boiling (accident!). Still good, but not as wholesome and yom as my chicken carcass bonestock turns out.
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Dec 12, 2014 03:59
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This is my favorite Vietnamese soup, bún bò Huế (Spicy Hue Style Noodle Soup) broth: 1-2 lb pork hocks 3-4 lb pork neckbones (or mix of pork and beef bones) 2 tb neutral oil 1 tb annato seeds 1-1.5 lb beef shank (Asian grocery stores will usually sell boneless beef shank cut lengthwise off the bone, often labeled "conical shank" - will be easier to cut into slices for the soup) 1-1.5 lb boneless pork leg 2 medium onions 3-5 cloves garlic 1/2 tb red pepper flakes 1/2 tb paprika 1.5 tablespoon of mam ruoc/tom (shrimp paste)... it comes jarred in the Asian market, looks purplish brownish and smells very strongly 5 quarts water 2-3 tablespoons fish sauce 1-2 teaspoon sugar/.5 - 1 oz rock sugar salt and black pepper to taste (start with ~2 tb kosher salt) six stalks of lemongrass - cut the stalks in half. For three of the stalks, smash the lower end to expose more surface area. For the other three, peel off the outer layer and cut the softer inner white portion into chunks a few pineapple slices (crosswise sections) spice mix: 2-3 Tb neutral oil, just enough to coat the rest of the ingredients the white part of the three stalks of lemongrass, minced, about 3-4 tablespoons (this is easiest done in the food processor) 2-3 tablespoons minced shallots 1-2 clove garlic minced 1-2 tb red pepper flakes 1/2 tb paprika 1 tsp shrimp paste 1 tsp fish sauce noodles: bun bo hue rice noodles, boiled ... you want round "bun" noodles that are thicker than the very thin vermicelli bun noodles. and not flat noodles or pho noodles. about 3-4 ounces of dried noodles per bowl. Also, many times the packages for these noodles say to boil just 3-5 minutes but for most brands that is way too short. Just keep boiling them until they are cooked all the way through but still have a bit of bite, it can take 15+ minutes. garnish: chopped green onions thinly sliced onion cilantro veg and herb platter. you don't have to have every single one, but have at least one crunchy vegetable thing and a couple herbs: bean sprouts shredded banana blossom shredded water spinach stems (shredded cabbage or even lettuce can be substituted for banana blossom and water spinach stems if you can't find either) Thai basil purple perilla (tia to) Vietnamese coriander (rau ram) lime 1. Bring a pot of water to a boil and add ham hocks and bones to parboil them for just a few minutes. Rinse bones and rinse out pot 2. Steep oil with annato seeds in a small pan or pot over medium heat for a few minutes, then strain out the oil into the large pot. Briefly sear the beef shank and pork leg in the pot, set them aside, then add onion, garlic, red pepper flakes, paprika, and shrimp paste and saute briefly. 3. Add the water, fish sauce, sugar, salt, and pepper and stir to evenly distribute. Then add back in the beef shank, pork, bones, and hocks. Add the lemongrass stalks (set aside the smaller chunks) and pineapple. Let the pot simmer for a couple hours. 4. After 1-2 hours, remove the pork hocks and leg. After 3-4 hours remove the beef shank. Cool the meats in a bowl of cold water before storage. After cool, slice the meats thinly, reserve the hocks. Adjust seasoning as needed for the broth and continue simmering another 3 hours or overnight. 5. To make the spice mix, heat the oil with lemongrass, shallots, garlic, red pepper flakes, and paprika over medium low heat until it begins to sizzle. Stir occasionally and let the shallot and garlic lightly brown, for 10 - 20 minutes, adjusting the heat to make sure it doesn't burn. At the end, season with the shrimp paste and fish sauce and let it go for another 5 minutes or so. 6. After broth has finished simmering, strain out the solids. Add about half of the spice mix to taste, reserving some on the side so that individuals can adjust the spice level of their individual bowl. 7. To serve, submerge sliced meat and hocks in broth to warm up. Put noodles in a bowl and top with meats including a pork hock. Add the onion/green onion/cilantro. Ladle in your broth. Add stuff from the veg platter as desired and additional spice mix to each bowl.
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Dec 12, 2014 07:56
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Thanks Mich, that sounds really good. I only have smoked Paprika, am I going to be sad if I use that?
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Dec 12, 2014 19:21
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posh spaz posted:Thanks Mich, that sounds really good. it'll be fine, also who really cares if it's just 1/2 tsp of something
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Dec 14, 2014 01:05
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EAT THE EGGS RICOLA posted:it'll be fine, also who really cares if it's just 1/2 tsp of something I think it's 1tbsp total, 1/2 in the broth and 1/2 in the spice mix.
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Dec 14, 2014 01:56
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posh spaz posted:I think it's 1tbsp total, 1/2 in the broth and 1/2 in the spice mix. It'll be fine, and you can justify it spergingly to friends by saying that it hearkens back to the days when they used wood and coal fires to cook with.
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Dec 14, 2014 02:00
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I actually had to go to the spice shack today to get annatto anyway, so I picked up a buck's worth of unsmoked Spanish paprika.
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Dec 14, 2014 02:03
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I bought a bunch of black cardamom last week thinking it was more or less the same as green cardamom, but I found out it's very different. First of all it's much larger and has a more robust and intense flavor, but also the method of drying it (over a wood burning fire) infuses it with smokey taste. I have been looking up recipes that use it since then, and read somewhere that it is often used when preparing Phở even though I have never seen it in any recipes. I haven't tried it yet, but I'll toss it in next time I make some broth. I would also like to emphasize the importance of having a big chunk of bone and marrow in the broth, as I've always found this to be the key to a really savory rich broth.
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Dec 14, 2014 13:49
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twoday posted:I would also like to emphasize the importance of having a big chunk of bone and marrow in the broth, as I've always found this to be the key to a really savory rich broth. I feel like the bone marrow does more for the body/mouthfeel of the broth than the flavor, but maybe we're thinking about the same thing.
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Dec 14, 2014 20:15
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posh spaz posted:I feel like the bone marrow does more for the body/mouthfeel of the broth than the flavor, but maybe we're thinking about the same thing. That's the rich part of the rich and savory, I'd think.
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Dec 14, 2014 20:22
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mich posted:This is my favorite Vietnamese soup, bún bò Huế (Spicy Hue Style Noodle Soup) I can't get neckbones easy but trotters aren't a problem. Would they be an acceptable substitute?
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Dec 14, 2014 21:12
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Jose posted:I can't get neckbones easy but trotters aren't a problem. Would they be an acceptable substitute? I think so. You just want lots of collagen for sticky goodness. So, I've never cooked with fresh lemongrass before. Should I use the whole stalk, or cut off the really woody bits on the tips and tails?
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Dec 14, 2014 21:29
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posh spaz posted:I think so. You just want lots of collagen for sticky goodness. just clean it and smash it on your counter a bunch of times to bruise it, then remove it when you're done cooking
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Dec 14, 2014 21:41
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EAT THE EGGS RICOLA posted:just clean it and smash it on your counter a bunch of times to bruise it, then remove it when you're done cooking When you say clean it, do you mean just rinse off the dirt?
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Dec 14, 2014 21:50
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posh spaz posted:When you say clean it, do you mean just rinse off the dirt? Rinse off the dirt, slice off the end of the root, and discard the outer layer.
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Dec 14, 2014 21:52
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EAT THE EGGS RICOLA posted:Rinse off the dirt, slice off the end of the root, and discard the outer layer. Cool thanks
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Dec 14, 2014 21:56
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So I made the Bun bo Hue today. It turned out pretty good, but it was lacking in depth of flavor. Not really sure what went wrong. I think the next time I'm at a Vietnamese restaurant I'll order some. I'm not 100% sure what exactly it's supposed to taste like.
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Dec 15, 2014 03:07
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posh spaz posted:I'm not 100% sure what exactly it's supposed to taste like. a lot of people call it spicy pho
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Dec 15, 2014 03:21
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GrAviTy84 posted:a lot of people call it spicy pho Hmm, mine was a lot different than pho. I used pork hocks, some shank, and some pork shoulder for the broth. That plus the lemongrass and pineapple made it taste a lot different than pho. It was good, and I generally like the combo of pork and citrus flavor, but the broth was insipid. It was definitely sticky enough, the flavor just wasn't there.
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Dec 15, 2014 03:40
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posh spaz posted:Hmm, mine was a lot different than pho. I used pork hocks, some shank, and some pork shoulder for the broth. That plus the lemongrass and pineapple made it taste a lot different than pho. It was good, and I generally like the combo of pork and citrus flavor, but the broth was insipid. It was definitely sticky enough, the flavor just wasn't there. well, there is pork pho... pho doesnt have to be beef
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Dec 15, 2014 03:46
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GrAviTy84 posted:well, there is pork pho... pho doesnt have to be beef I don't think I've ever had that.
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Dec 15, 2014 03:58
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I sometimes make pho with a couple of boiler hens. I rather like it.
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Dec 15, 2014 08:33
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One problem with me transcribing these recipes is I'm always adjusting to taste. There could be any number of issues. Also grav it is NOT spicy pho :P Every Vietnamese soup is its own thing not a ____ version of pho. Potential issues: -Not enough bones in the broth -Not enough shrimp paste/fish sauce/salt - that all needs to be adjusted to taste -Not enough of the spice mix or lemongrass in the spice mix -Not enough herbs from the herb/veg platter I'm not clear if you minced any of the lemongrass for the spice mix. ricola's instructions were correct for the stalks that you simmer in the broth. You also need to take some of your lemongrass stalks and mince it finely for that spice mix. Just about 1/4 to 1/3 of the bottom whiteish section of the stalk minced. I roughly chop it and then put it through the food processor a bunch.
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Dec 15, 2014 16:17
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If you really dig lemongrass in general, you can also buy it already minced in little plastic pots. I usually see these in the freezer or refrigerated sections of my favorite Cambodian market. What I buy isn't otherwise seasoned or oiled, so I can use it for tea or dessert-making, too. I keep mine in the freezer and gouge out as much as I like. All in all, pretty handy and doesn't seem to suffer from a loss of flavor like some other pre-prepped ingredients.
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Dec 15, 2014 16:37
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I ended up with a lot more broth than I usually do. So maybe it was just too much water diluting the flavor. The salt level was fine, and I used a bit over 2 tbsp total of the shrimp paste. I think it could have used more lemongrass as well. Maybe next time do multiple additions of lemongrass? The aroma was awesome for the first couple hours of the simmer, but it seemed to wane around hour 3. Edit: I had an 8qt stock pot totally full, and most of a 3qt stock pot. The last time I made pho I just used the 8qt pot and it turned out really well. I think that might be the culprit. posh spaz fucked around with this message at 17:48 on Dec 15, 2014 |
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Dec 15, 2014 16:50
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posh spaz posted:I ended up with a lot more broth than I usually do. So maybe it was just too much water diluting the flavor. The salt level was fine, and I used a bit over 2 tbsp total of the shrimp paste. I think it could have used more lemongrass as well. Maybe next time do multiple additions of lemongrass? The aroma was awesome for the first couple hours of the simmer, but it seemed to wane around hour 3. I add herbs late in the process because they tend to lose their impact quickly. rethought: Adding some later will probably help you keep more of the fragrance. I don't know if there's any benefit to be gained from adding lemongrass in early to a multi-hour cooking session.
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Dec 15, 2014 17:55
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One other thing I did with my pho last time was make the broth first, then simmered aromatics/spices whatever after I defatted it. That seemed to work really well. No, that's a lie, I did the onions and ginger in the broth, then did the spices after I defatted. posh spaz fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Dec 15, 2014 |
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Dec 15, 2014 18:04
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What was your water:bones ratio?
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Dec 15, 2014 18:13
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I had 3lbs of pork hocks, 2lbs of shank and 2lbs of shoulder. All the cuts had bones in them but I didn't have any just bones. This was about 10-11 quarts of water.
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Dec 15, 2014 18:20
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Ginger in my experience is best to add early.
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Dec 15, 2014 18:47
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