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midnightclimax posted:You can already do this in real life. 
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Dec 26, 2014 13:39
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Maybe I'm misremembering, but didn't the WoW developers cite Shadowbane as the reason their "PVP" servers were going to be RvR only, and that they had decided not to deploy the kind of free-for-all PVP servers that EQ and DAOC had? Blizzard didn't want the massively disproportionate extra workload on the customer service department that dealing with that crowd entails, and when butthurts complained that they wouldn't be able to murder their own guildmates the reply was "lol, Shadowbane."
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Dec 27, 2014 00:23
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I dunno the logic behind that, FFA PvP seems a hell of a lot easier to deal with than RvR. Don't have to worry about faction imbalances if everyone can beat the poo poo out of each other. Can still do team games and things along those lines without hard forcing a faction. I'd go more with a lore excuse than anything else for WoW. EDIT: I'd also prefer FFA PvP or at least something along the lines of Guild vs Guild if you're going to need to form teams somehow. WoW could easily be one faction if there wasn't background lore against it (that they constantly find an excuse to forget whenever the next big baddie comes around that people need to team up to fight against). Stanos fucked around with this message at 00:38 on Dec 27, 2014 |
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Dec 27, 2014 00:35
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EVE proves that people are willing to play awful shitheaps of unfun game mechanics in high stakes PvP environment. I'd say the entire reason the game doesn't get a larger audience is because it's boring to do the PvE side. All of these UO, EQ or whatever revivals bring in the wrong crowd. It brings the wolves. You need a 75% PvE'er 25% PvP'er community for an MMO to work. The reboots always bring a 90% Veteran PvP community and 10% newbies trying to figure out some rather byzantine mechanics the gaming community moved on from. It's totally feasible for a game to come out that takes EVE's PvP and territorial control and merge it with WoW's combat systems. It just takes a risk in an industry that is full of landmines and failed dreams. YouTuber fucked around with this message at 01:06 on Dec 27, 2014 |
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Dec 27, 2014 01:03
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Definitely valid points YouTuber, but I think one thing Shadowbane did well is that similar to EvE, they had things for non PvPers to do. It was the perfect place for those weird guys that just wanted to be a merchant, or a guild leader, or play sim city or whatever. They way they tied progression to the city building via skill trainers meant that PvPers could not be self reliant like they are in other games, they needed the support of a guild. So you ended up with situations where a strong PvP guild was supported by some weird merchant sperg guy who just liked moving numbers around and in return for his services the guild protected his city. I know this is all rose glasses poo poo, but god drat was Shadowbane fun.
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Dec 27, 2014 01:25
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I think the biggest problem with games that have risky mechanics is that pretty much every recent game featuring them has been a gigantic pile of poo poo. Mortal, Darkfall, etc have all been on a tiny budget with inexperienced devs. The Korean MMOs with harsh risk/reward mechanics are either grindy as gently caress or rampant with cheaters or both. I don't think a MMO like this can have a huge audience, but I think it has a niche. It just hasn't been done right and there aren't really any MMOs on the horizon that seem to be doing it right. For it to be remotely successful a company with an actual budget and a track record of making MMOs would need to get on board and I haven't heard of any game like this. basically what play2crush looks like is some devs trying to cash in on the "HEY REMEMBER HOW WE WERE INVOLVED IN THAT THING YOU LIKED MORE THAN A DECADE AGO?" train every washed up dev has been in on lately I'd like to be wrong though
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Dec 27, 2014 01:37
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I registered a channel on synIRC for people like me who hate MMOs and yet end up playing them #play2crush just remember if you aren't crushing, you aren't playing
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Dec 27, 2014 03:45
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Eonwe posted:people like me who hate MMOs and yet end up playing them Goddammit Eonwe don't make me do it again, after Wildstar and Archeage I can't take another one.
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Dec 27, 2014 08:57
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I loved the hell out of Shadowbane, but it was doomed by not having a place where you could safely recover from getting all your poo poo wrecked. In EVE Online, you can always go to highsec if things go bad in null. In Shadowbane, people just quit when they lost their city, since it was so hard to build back up.
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Dec 27, 2014 11:19
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I can't wait to see how they gently caress this up.
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Dec 27, 2014 14:00
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Octarine Dream posted:I can't wait to see how they gently caress this up. On this I think we can all agree.
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Dec 27, 2014 18:56
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Octarine Dream posted:I can't wait to see how they gently caress this up. Well if the original Shadowbane development track is any indication you should only have to wait a decade or so to find out.
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Dec 28, 2014 18:47
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Eonwe posted:Mortal A PvP MMO, especially one where success in PvP is going to be at least a little dependent on character progression needs to be free from hacks and F2P so there is at least some feeling of safety in numbers with a horde of newbies around at all times. But no, they listened to the community who said the game was perfect or something because they paid for early access and didn't want to feel like they lost their money I guess. I wanted to love that game so much. /rant If you want to play classic games just play the emu, you'll probably get a better community than you would on a live game, although I think if UO rebooted with an official progression server it'd attract so many terrible players that while a disproportionate amount of people would attempt to be murderers, they'd be so terrible that it would actually be fine until they ragequit when statloss is introduced because they're lazy and bad.
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Dec 30, 2014 00:43
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J. Todd Coleman taught me how to love.
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Dec 30, 2014 01:10
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Tom Powers posted:The problem with Mortal is that they listened to the early access crowd when things were CLEARLY NOT RIGHT they went ahead and "launched" way early, and with a horribly dated model.
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Dec 30, 2014 04:31
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Yeah I agree, that is a problem. But there are so many MMOs these days I don't think a new take on an old game will do any better unless it's officially branded either.
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Dec 30, 2014 04:44
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Speaking of UO, I'm vaguely curious about Shroud of the Avatar, but not enough to pay $40 for an alpha. Plus I got to the part about consensual PVP and checked out. It's just not Ultima if you can't kill someone, take all their stuff, and dance among pieces of their dismembered corpse. Ah, memories... But anyway, games can keep promising a return to FFA PvP, but that age has passed along with 40 man raids. It's never coming back, but it's cute seeing people delude themselves.
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Dec 30, 2014 05:22
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Speaking of UO, and to a lesser extent Shadowbane. One of the things UO did right that these modern hardcore PVP mmo's can't figure out, is that gear did not matter. In UO everyone ran around in generic crafted gear, if you lost it, it was enough to hurt, but more gear was readily available on only 10 minutes worth of grinding gold or less. I am again reminded of the success of DayZ, if someone were to capture that feel in a fantasy setting, with just a bit more permanence and progression I think they could have a winning model.
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Dec 30, 2014 05:30
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I think open PvP could maybe work if there was a company that had money and understood two things about UO (since every game like this tries to claim to be the UO successor) 1. what Wadjamaloo said about gear not really being all that important 2. Have other poo poo to do aside from PvP whenever I talk to someone about UO all I hear are stories about how they were super awesome cool PKers or some poo poo, but UO wasn't really that UO had PKers, but there were plenty of people who did other stuff as well pretty much every sandbox game right now has made the open PvP full loot a thing but forgot to add in reasons to socialize and other actual things basically what I'm saying is that devs created MMO deathmatch servers
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Dec 30, 2014 05:35
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Some total rose colored glasses nonsense is about to spew out of my fingertips. UO even gave PKers non-PK things to do. I used to set up toll bridges and kill people that wouldn't pay. People that ran taverns or shops for RPers would hire guards to protect them. I would escort miners and protect them from other PKs. Even playing as a non-PK was an experience that was heightened by the threat of player interaction. Sure I could go farm some poo poo spawn with a low threat level, but the draw of getting the good loot from Dragons or Gazers was just too tempting, even though they were heavily patrolled by PKs. I 100% agree that modern PVP MMOs are just deathmatch servers and that a true sandbox is the way to go. Build a goo interesting sandbox first, add PVP later.
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Dec 30, 2014 05:49
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I think my favorite thing about UO was the warriors style conflicts that would erupt between guilds, whether it was PK guilds vs other PK guilds, or criminals vs vigilantes. I was always just some scrub that would usually get ganked for being on the wrong side, but it was fun to team up with a posse now and again. Once the player base went on the decline all the joy went out of it. I'm starting to think devs have completely forgotten what makes for a good sandbox, because I can't think of anything recent that even got close to being enjoyable. Lately when I think of sandbox games I think of disjointed, unfocused messes.
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Dec 30, 2014 06:14
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Eonwe posted:whenever I talk to someone about UO all I hear are stories about how they were super awesome cool PKers or some poo poo, but UO wasn't really that I can't really think of any interesting classic UO stories besides player interactions which almost always ended up violently. Oh wait I have one. When Trammel came out there was a few days delay before housing was allowed to be placed (maybe a week?) so people could patch, find their places, etc.. well some people decided they'd tame EVERY ANIMAL and just leave them everywhere so people couldn't place houses over them. Fortunately there was both NO LIMIT to the amount of animals people could tame AND since Trammel was the non-PVP area, they could not be killed by players. That's a pretty good story but it's not something I was really involved in other than I couldn't place my house because of a loving deer.
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Dec 30, 2014 07:40
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Tom Powers posted:These make the best stories though, interactions with actual players in a competitive sense is more interesting than "Let me explain in depth to you NPCs and then how I killed a bunch of rats this one time or something." I remeber the no lmit animal taming days. there was this one guy who tamed over 20 cats and all he did was just wander around east brit bank.
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Dec 31, 2014 04:26
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I feel like the main reason we can never have UO again is voice comm. When people had to communicate with their friends in game it gave other people the opportunity to interact with them too, and that lead to groups and rivalries forming dynamically. That doesn't happen when all anyone will type is "lol" when they kill someone.
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Jan 6, 2015 15:56
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https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1020002493/isles-of-eventide?ref=nav_search here is the new game we are all going to follow
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Jan 6, 2015 18:25
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Rabbi posted:I feel like the main reason we can never have UO again is voice comm. When people had to communicate with their friends in game it gave other people the opportunity to interact with them too, and that lead to groups and rivalries forming dynamically. That doesn't happen when all anyone will type is "lol" when they kill someone. Serious answer: You can't have UO back because it was the only virtual world on the block. Everyone who wanted to do something in a virtual world had to play UO. Once competition came, all of UO's flaws were more apparent and people's tastes became more important to pander to.
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Jan 6, 2015 21:33
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Eonwe posted:https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1020002493/isles-of-eventide?ref=nav_search At long last, someone with the balls to just say it flat out: "I'm here to monetize furries"
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Jan 6, 2015 23:12
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Eonwe posted:https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1020002493/isles-of-eventide?ref=nav_search quote:Stretch goals: 
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Jan 6, 2015 23:24
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Eonwe posted:https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1020002493/isles-of-eventide?ref=nav_search Music Courtesy of Adrian von Ziegler "Wolf Blood".... 
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Jan 6, 2015 23:41
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http://crowfall.com Totally not Game of Thrones, no siree
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Jan 7, 2015 00:07
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i registered a channel on synirc for this dumb lovely game and im gonna post on the forums very badly and maybe get banned idk #crowfall
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Jan 7, 2015 01:36
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Freakazoid_ posted:Serious answer: You can't have UO back because it was the only virtual world on the block. Everyone who wanted to do something in a virtual world had to play UO. Once competition came, all of UO's flaws were more apparent and people's tastes became more important to pander to. Except this isn't accurate at all. There were a bunch of MMORPGs released in the late 90s and early 2000s well before UO went into the decline. Notably M59, Everquest, Asherons Call, and Lineage. But there were easily 10-15 other smaller but active MMOs in the late 90s and even more in the 2000s before UO went full crash & burn. UO went into decline after drastic changes to its game model really altered the core player experience in a pretty negative way. The PVP changes are what everybody talks about, but Trammel was really bad for a variety of other reasons. Consider that Trammel doubled the game's landmass, essentially reducing player interactions by dispersing the population (the questionable art direction for Felucca certainly didn't do any favors for this situation by making half the game look completely dead). They doubled the amount of potentially available resources in the game when they doubled the landmass, effectively flooding the economy with supply. Now consider the PVP changes on top of this -- the incentive to compete for supply is pretty much gone since now there's enough for everyone, the PVP option of competing for supply is essentially gone, and there are effectively less players to interact with. The end state they created was that you can do basically everything you need to without any sort of challenge, element of danger, or having to interact with anyone at all, which coincidentally were all of the elements that made UO a fun and interesting experience. All of these problems were further complicated by the release of a garbage 3D client that looked worse than the 2D client and actually made it more difficult to play the game and control your character. So what I'm saying is questionable post-launch development decisions caused the downfall of UO. Really had little to do with competing products or UO being the only option. You could even speculate that Trammel was an ill advised attempt to create space for additional population based on UO's historical growth rates up to that point.
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Jan 7, 2015 04:32
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shadok posted:- those that did would go in, grind away for their runes, build their cities and get their trainers, get baned and burnt to the ground by an enemy that was way too big for them to resist, and quit in disgust Shadowbane is still to this date the best mass scale/siege based PvP game made. 300v300 fights were epic and fights MEANT something. Losing your city you've built up over weeks/months was devastating. So you literally fought to the bitter end even eventually dressed in scraps wielding wooden sticks. But as you described, the progression above is 100% what happened on my server. Most guilds became absolute crybabies and ruined the server by blobbing. It started out super fun and there were multiple equal size alliances for months and everyone backstabbed each other and fights were equal/challenging. However instead of keeping the game competitive the top 3 major guilds allied and formed a 70% of server pop mega alliance. I still had fun fighting on the last surviving resistance outnumbered 4:1 for weeks but eventually another half of the remaining resistance went into this big alliance and it became 90% of the server vs remaining 10%. So we, the ramaining resistance said gently caress it and all just switched servers and the remaining blob literally set on this server with no PvP for months until everyone there quit. I never got the appeal of the masses to carebear a server that much in a "hardcore PvP" game. Not sure of a good way to prevent it. People are dumb. Rad Russian fucked around with this message at 05:01 on Jan 7, 2015 |
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Jan 7, 2015 04:54
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Pre-Trammel UO was like a wild west frontier town. As a greenhorn you would die a lot of horrible deaths, often not even knowing what hit you. But over time you got some skills, got better at the game, learned the dos and don'ts and how to fight. Another fantastic aspect was that skill and experience would always win out in the end. The complete immersion and the sandbox features made the game great. But nowadays no studio would risk to make a game with such a long and heavy learning curve.
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Jan 7, 2015 05:11
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Hammerstein posted:Another fantastic aspect was that I forget what server I played SB on, but there was this giant super guild called Scorned Death that just dominated it. They owned the commander rune spot and had a monopoly on the market driving the price up to be way higher than any other server. They also did one of the most devious things in MMO history. They baned every single city on the map at once, all of them with a bane window set to pop on Christmas Eve. Guild leaders were going ape poo poo telling all their members they had to cancel Christmas with their families so they could guard the cities instead. After all that, Scorned Death didn't attack a single city and just told everyone merry Christmas the next day.
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Jan 7, 2015 05:34
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rage at me posted:Except this isn't accurate at all. There were a bunch of MMORPGs released in the late 90s and early 2000s well before UO went into the decline. Notably M59, Everquest, Asherons Call, and Lineage. But there were easily 10-15 other smaller but active MMOs in the late 90s and even more in the 2000s before UO went full crash & burn. You're kind of saying what I said, except with some twisted facts. UO effectively killed open pvp in response to its competition not allowing it by default. They saw their subscribers leaving for those other MMOs and felt nixing open pvp would at least stop the loss. The only MMOs available in the year 2000 was UO, EQ, AC and Lineage. That's it. I don't know where you got this 10-15 other games idea, unless you're counting titles that never made it to the US? Renaissance was released in 2000, which is where the decline began. M59 didn't have enough subs to count as an MMO, even though it could've otherwise qualified. From 1997 to 1999, UO was the only MMORPG in town.
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Jan 7, 2015 23:40
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Freakazoid_ posted:UO effectively killed open pvp in response to its competition not allowing it by default. They saw their subscribers leaving for those other MMOs and felt nixing open pvp would at least stop the loss. I recently read a piece by an ex-UO developer where he stated that hardcore PKs made up a tiny fraction of the player base... which says something when most people's recollections of the game seem to involve words like 'precasting' 'dexxer' and 'OOOoooOoOOoo!' Trammel brought a shoe down on open PK, and it boned a lot of established RP groups too. While most of their regulars buggered off for literally greener pastures, their buildings (and sometimes other GM-blessed objects) stayed in Fel, and the Housingberg land rush pretty much wrecked any hope of rebuilding. The thing I find wild is that official UO is still running after all of that, and after all of this time.
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Jan 8, 2015 01:24
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Official UO is a knockoff Diablo MMO now. While Trammel DID stop the customer hemorrhage, it was ultimately a REALLY bad decision because it very quickly destroyed the entire population, and their response to this was a felucca revamp which further hosed the game (powerscrolls) People came back to UO after they got tired of EQ, after all EQ was nothing but a grind against NPCs and a ton of people had problems losing their corpse and/or levels. By the time they got nostalgic and returned to UO everything was different. Everyone in fel was a murderer and there was no excitement to be had in Trammel since the fun of the game was anyone could screw you at any moment but most people were nice. Also a lot of people either got houses which was their end goal and then quit or didn't get a house placed (even though they had the deed) and got pissed and quit.
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Jan 8, 2015 04:19
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Shadowbane was really great on a lot of points,there were actual builds that could benefit from certain races without it just bieng a lame stat bonus or something. What killed it for me was the errors during sieges and some of the janky mechanics. Predicting Crowfall.exe errors and player stacking now. *Just remembered a guy by the name of Steven Dragonscale,dude was around for many years. He even appeared in the Shadowbane Emu. Anyone could join Dragonscale so he did actually help a lot of players get started..while he stood in or near his castle Rp'ing with his "queen" you could easily pk him or rob him blind with a thief and he didn't even get that upset. *pours out a 40 for Steven Dragonscale* Drfishback fucked around with this message at 13:43 on Jan 10, 2015 |
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Jan 10, 2015 13:36
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Freakazoid_ posted:You're kind of saying what I said, except with some twisted facts. What I think you're saying is that UO failed because it had flawed model and that once competing products were available people didn't have to put up with it to play an MMO so they left. What I'm saying was that UO's model was fine until Origin broke it, and that the reason they broke it was a misguided attempt to create additional growth -- not to correct a flaw in their model or to try to save a sinking ship. UO subscribers were growing consistently until 2001 and didn't actually start declining until 2004. EQ grew much faster rate than UO did when it launched (even though at this time UO was growing steadily) so in all likelyhood Origin was seeing this and trying to create comparable growth to Everquest because they saw opportunity. They created changes to align the ruleset closer to EQ, probably because they thought it would attract a broader audience. But why would you play a 2D isometric Everquest clone when you could just play Everquest. I'm really trying to drive at the fact that just because there is pvp and full looting doesn't mean the game model is broken or that people just won't play it if they can pick and MMO with a safer ruleset. Every attempt at a pvp game since UO (with the exception of EVE) has been pretty half assed and this is the reason we see these games fail so quickly. Interestingly, EVE has a similar growth rate to the "pvp enabled" UO, only EVE didn't dick with its core model and what do you know it's still maintaining its growth. If you look at the sub numbers for notable MMO releases that were advertised as pvp games, they tend to grow very rapidly at launch and have really respectable populations (WAR ~800k, AOC ~700k). 6 months later these same MMO's are pratically dead. Having experienced this a few times I'd argue its because people hit the end game and realize the games are unfinished and there's absolutely nothing interesting to do, rather than it being some issue with pvp enabled game models in general. All that said, I think Shadowbane probably had the worst pvp game model I've ever seen. It's actually pretty laughable that they created a game where the entire server population naturally forms 2 sides and goes to war, then because it's pretty much impossible for the losing side to ever recover they just quit once they've lost the war. The remaining players over time naturally form 2 sides and go to war again. Rinse and repeat until everyone has quit. The pvp itself was fun though. Here's where I got my MMO count. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massively_multiplayer_online_role-playing_games
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Jan 10, 2015 16:03
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